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[Feedback Requested] Mid Wars Ancients Camp question


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22 hours ago, Sorais said:

 

How do you propose to stallbreak if there is no neutral camp?

It's easy. Kongor type creep should be repleced by this Dragon which was giving huge amount of gold. 

It was best kongor type boss because a lot of early fights were around him. 

Edited by VaYha
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23 hours ago, MacroHard said:

Incentivize “action”!  Create in-game mechanics to reward aggressiveness.

Unsubstantiated and unsolicited personal brainstorm example ideas without thinking through the ramifications:

-Passive gold per second decreases the further you are from nearest enemy tower, and increases the closer you are.

-Passive gold per second increases for every enemy tower you have destroyed.

-Death gold: if you die your team gets gold.  (The killing team still needs to get more though, obviously)

-Much shorter respawn timers early game (such as when all towers are up)

 

Do you think there's a realistic chance EU will implement these changes?

19 hours ago, Shoy said:

1&2) I would personally have the current Hard Camp replaced with a mix of Hard/Ancient camp. Having a camp spawning main creep from hard camp pool of creeps (only Skeleton King / Minotaur / Vagabond Leader / Catman Champion) alongside one main Ancient Creep (Bettle Queen / Predasaur Crusher / Dragon Master) without any of it's side mobs

I believe that would be a best middle ground, as some heroes require Ancients to their staff effect. I wound not like adding another new camp to have people spread more around the map farming instead of fighting more. In fact I would love to see current camp be moved a bit closer to the center as well so it would actually encourage players to to kill it, and both team initialize the fight over them. Having it so far out results with people usually sneaking out to kill them.  Having them closer along with an additional ancient mob spawning providing extra gold, would encourage players to fight over them more.

I don't think this is a good idea. It makes the neutral camp not clearable early in the game, and that's when stalling is at its most effective. Dragon is cute, but its supply of gold is limited and once it runs out things can easily go back to stalling.

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What you are trying to say @Sorais is that the camp is not cleanable solo person early in the game. You would be able to clear it easily with some additional help. I think promoting team co-operation in Mid wars, and adding this mini objective would improve overall experience.

Also to prevent last hitting, the gold from the camp could be divided by the team who killed it.

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This is what exactly provided huge Dragon Kongor. Because he was giving large amount of money teams were trying to control him from the beginning... and it was like middle war but on the right side of the map. Setting camps just for farming is bad idea, because this splits teams and we are heading caldavar player vs environment game mode. Dragon demanded whole team engagement. But seriously... I don't get it... midwar do not suffer problems with dynamic. It suffers unbalance... so spending time and energy on another controversial addon is pointless. 

Why midwar must to be changed? If caldavar is "main" mode, tweak this one. Midwar doesn't need even minor map changes. I know official statement of FB about not balancing heroes and I disagree but changing map won't fix midwar... because additional camp will focus players attention which is opposite to idea of midwar: middle lane war. 

Edited by VaYha
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5 hours ago, Shoy said:

What you are trying to say @Sorais is that the camp is not cleanable solo person early in the game. You would be able to clear it easily with some additional help. I think promoting team co-operation in Mid wars, and adding this mini objective would improve overall experience.

Also to prevent last hitting, the gold from the camp could be divided by the team who killed it.

It doesn't work that way. If you go with multiple heroes, opponents can dive the rest of your now-grossly-outnumbered team and kill them. 5v3 is much steeper odds than 5v4. 

@VaYha Dragon provides like 1000 gold. That's not a lot. In fact my memory of playing with Dragon Kongor is that you just go directly to the dragon at the start of every game and spam on the chest. You will undoubtedly die, but whatever. Then after the chest is drained it becomes a normal game again. It's not a very effective way to stallbreak, and if it did become an effective way to stallbreak (e.g. via respawning chests) it would no longer be Mid Wars, unless there is some "this only happens if it has been X minutes since the last kill" stipulation.

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Nobody should clear the camp early on tbh. Either it's that valuable that the whole team decides to do so or you just don't do it. However, Ophelia and Parasite both can take creeps at all stages of the game. It will still not be their mode tho.

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  I posted this in the general thread but this thread's more active.

On 7/7/2020 at 6:12 PM, `Everyone said:
  • Without 2, it can be used as a boring way of preventing comebacks. Eg. push wave, farm ancients. Will take 20 minutes to get a big enough advantage to end. 20 boring minutes.

Legitimate concern.

Comeback potential is seen as a good thing because snowballing is often excessive -- but it makes games longer, whether directly, or because players won't concede because they believe there is comeback potential.

Proper, balanced Midwars games last 35+ mins.  I personally don't mind it, but I suspect everyone would prefer them a bit shorter.

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The rest of my post isn't related to the ancient camp, but is simply another suggestion I have to prevent turtling.

Nerf T1 towers but make them provide regen, or magic armor if you are within range of an ally tower.

This allows tower diving, while maintaining the advantage you get within the tower. The difference being you have to hold your tower line to prevent it from falling.

I like this idea but hero regen would be a massive nerf to harassment, Thunderbringer etc.  Phys & magic armour might be doable.

Also, the period between T1 going down and being able to destroy T2 and base is somewhat broken as expressed by Sorais.  If the advancing team is at all aggressive, they'll often give up too many kills and let the defending team catch up.  If they're not aggressive, what else is there to do?  Ancients will help but it's boring.  Kong is often too difficult. Winning in Midwars shouldn't involve taking the boring option.

If anything, I'd be inclined to boost T1's health to keep teams fighting 5v5 at the river.  But making T2 and the base easier to destroy would make games shorter and early game more important.  Does T2 even need to be in the game?

But I do agree with discouraging camping T1 so how about reducing its damage to make diving easier?

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Move the T2 towers closer to the shrine. This will allow more aggressive positioning by whoever is pushing, while still being punishable as there are many was to flank if properly set up. I feel like where the T2 towers currently are is simply too good of a defensive position, and in high midwars, in 'tryhard' (coordinated, not pub) games the T1 is almost never pushed before 3-4 items, and if it is, the lane equilibirum is still at mid. There is 0 incentive to go to push the T2 early on, and is considered a throw. 

I agree with your intent here but I'm baffled as to where you want the tower to be, or how that reduces camping.

Anyway we agree a lot here but what does this mean?

Comeback ability should be 'nerfed' but how much?  It could be nerfed a lot if teams didn't snowball excessively.  This could shorten games by 8 mins or so.

So if we... 
a) Made T2 and base easier to destroy (except by backdooring).
b) Slightly nerfed kill rewards some more and boosted auto gpm & creep gold...

... then games would be shorter, winning teams won't be penalised for winning and camping would be reduced.  Comebacks would still be possible but less dependent on camping and carries.

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I got what I needed from this thread for next patch, thanks for posting.

 

There will be quite a few exclusive changes for Mid Wars that will make it into next patch. Sneak peek of the changes for next patch:

 

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The main goal of these changes to Mid Wars is to resolve some common frustrations encountered by players in this mode, while slowly leaning towards rewarding properly applied early/mid game aggressive plays & pushes.

 

Edited by ElementUser
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