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ElementUser

read [Feedback Requested] Mid Wars Ancients Camp question

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Posted (edited)

Hi all,

 

I'm requesting feedback from the Mid Wars community regarding implementing Ancients to Mid Wars:

 

1) Do you want at least 1 Ancients Camp to be in Mid Wars? Why/why not?

2) Do you prefer having 1 Ancients camp where both teams can contest them? Or 2 Ancients camps (1 for each team)? Why/why not?

 

===

 

Adding at least 1 ancients camp adds another option for players who pick Ophelia/Parasite so that they can pick up Staff of the Master & have a unique aura for their team. It also provides both teams something to do during the occasional Mid Wars downtime in the mid/late game, as well as allowing a team to accrue slightly more resource advantage if they're pushing out and have map control.

 

Beyond these reasons though, I want to gauge the Mid Wars community to see if this is actually what they want (and if so, which variant they want).

 

Thanks for leaving feedback!

Edited by ElementUser
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Posted (edited)

As you said it would allow for more stuff to do if you can fight over the one set of Ancients. It would also allow the victor of the initial tower to be able to more easily gain that extra influx of gold safely.

I'm pro Ancients assuming it's one shared camp somewhere.

Edited by Hubaris
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Including an ancient camp would definitely give ophelia and parasite more viability in midwars.

If it were to be implemented I would very much lean towards only one camp which is easily accessible to both teams making it something you can really contest.

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I would love two ancient camps thats easily accesable for each team but at the same time abit easier for one side for each team to get to but at the same time close enough to force team fights 

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Posted (edited)

While we're on the subject, is it too much to ask for a second hardcamp to be implemented? Ophelia and Parasite need all the help they can get in this gamemode. Having multiple hardcamps (one each near each team's base) is one of several things I really loved about the PBT Mid Wars map, giving Ophe/Parasite an actual opportunity to have impact, unlike the current Mid Wars map where it's way too easy to have the solo Hardcamp monitored/blocked, making those two heroes literal throw picks.

And of course, I would love to have a couple of Ancient Camps implemented as well! These Ancient camps should be located somewhat close to the sides of the lane like in the PBT version, allowing both teams a chance to farm them whilst presenting a slight risk if the enemy team feels confident in contesting it.

Edited by donaidjtrump

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Posted (edited)

PBT meta was a snooze fest and a contributing factor was easy access to the ancient camps from lane. It was not uncommon for the support to stack them every minute starting from min 1. Not doing so was a waste of recources and the team would be forced to take the triple stack every time it was available. Please consider this while reading the suggestions. Was this sort of gameplay true to the gamemode?

How about one camp then? When a team pushes early, it gains access to an additional resource to farm. This would likely make snowballing faster and promote multi healer push comps. Pushing too early can be risky, and the camp would make it less so.

 

The only way an ancient camp can be healthy is if:

1. The team behind has an easy access to it (contributing to a comeback)

2. It is far enough from the river towers so stacking it from min 1 becomes unfeasible.

 

This leads me to believe only possibility for ancients to be good for the mode is if they are located near each teams base or behind tier 2 tower in a semi safe position and there are two of them.

Edited by PantyBandit`
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Posted (edited)

Neutrals are boring except when used in fights, at which point they become super interesting.  And as EU says, at least two heroes revolve around them.

Camping is a big problem in the mode.  Neutrals currently help a bit, but each team having their own Ancients camp could make camping a lot worse.

I'd say a straight-up switch from the Neutrals to Ancients, or get them to respawn as Ancients after ~6 mins.

Edited by NubbyMcNub

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This is going to sound wack but... what if when a Neutral Camp is defeated it helps push the lane (and provides no gold)?

Heroes of the Storm does this and it makes the neutrals extremely desirable outside of just the experience (and in this case, gold).

It also might help with late game stand offs by adding another win tool in addition to the boss.

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Is it not supposed to be "mid wars"? - everything should happen in the middle lane!

I think hard neutral camp should be removed (or not) and  ancient neutral creatures should appear in a similar way runes do (their frecuency migh be different from the runes), i.e., they will appear from North-West and make its way to the Kongor's pit at South-East. None of these neutral will attack players unless hit by them.

Once hit by a player, the ancient neutral will attack and then remain in the middle lane with the same behaviour as in forest of caldavar.

Ancient neutrals should be able to kill legion/hellbourne minions in order to prevent both teams from taking exp if they ignore the ancient neutrals.

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Posted (edited)

I feel like 1 ancient camp for each team will promote too much passive plays, players going to farm and missing team fights etc. Only 1 in the map makes sense, but also i'd like to see a longer respawn time, like make them spawn like every 2 or 3 minutes, so we dont have so much snowball for the team that has map control.

Edited by KaraiPyhare
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I think making the ancient and neutral camp unstackable would alleviate some of the issues discussed.

Midwars is about being in the mid lane. As it stands now the single neutral camp is plenty strong as one hero farming it can still gain a level advantage over the people in lane.

I would not want to see any increase in the amount of farmable neutral creeps as this would necessitate the pick of a jungling hero (or a hero capable of clearing jungle camps) in order for teams to stay balanced/viable.

By making the single neutral and ancient camps unstackable we are limiting the amount of resources to be gained by jungling but also giving parasite and ophelia viable mid/late game staff utility.

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I would very much like to see the ancient camp.

Currently it is easily possible to stack and farm the easy camp with draconis or legionnaire if the opposing team doesn't pay too much attention and you farm the camp at night. Especially I feel like there is currently an unbalance towards Hellbourne since you can pull the creeps your way and kill them in the open with vision around yourself. For the Legion side you would have to pull them uphill what makes it actually harded to get them there and control them.

Maybe thats a problem with the map in general. But what would change the balance a bit would be an ancient camp instead of the hard camp. That way it would still be possible to stack the camp but the benefit would be bigger and harder to claim. So the opposing team would have to pay more attention since it can give quite an advantage.

Yet as mentioned before the basic idea of midwars is to 'fight in the middle'. So I think it would be counterproductive to add two ancient camps. Since people would basically focus ond stacking and farming those since they give a huge advantage just by farming and it would be mostly uncontested due to positioning on the own half of the map.

In conclusion I think Midwars could benefit from one ancient camp instead of the hard camp.

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I think even if you add 1-2 anchients, heroes like parasite still won't be viable at all due to the phase before being able to obtain SotM. I want to see as few neutrals as possible for MW as this mode is all about teamfighting at certain areas of the map rather than farming.

At this point we kinda have to accept that certain heroes are not made for this mode and I don't see any reason to change that since there are lots of other heroes that doesn't really have a proper place in MW.

Having 1 ancient camp could bring in some variety but only if the creeps there are really worth to be contested from both teams (similar to bosses). That could be either a decent amount of gold (maybe spread among the team) or spawning a rune or something similar. Having 2 ancients isn't a good idea as it encourages farming those without any need of contesting them as both teams would have 1 and it could change the midwars meta to something more FoC like which simply isn't good for what the mode was designed for.

So either go without ancients at all or make 1 camp worth contesting. I'd also refrain to add any more other camps but it should be considered to move the current neutral camp also to a bit more central point to make it more fair for both teams.

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Yes, and only one camp. Yes primarily because it helps stallbreak. Other benefits should be quite small, Ophelia/Parasite etc are not likely to become good with ancients anyway.

Two camps has serious problems, which is that they promote turtling while stacking camps. We saw that quite a bit on the "new" map (the one now removed). For the same reason the ancient camp should be contestable for both teams.

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Posted (edited)

Stop doing midwar like caldavar. Midwar is not intended to be pve mode. It should be pure pvp. Suffering for pariste or ophelia is joke comparing to full balance so let's forget it. Every time any player is going farming top camp, it weakens team... it's like 4vs5 and its catastrophe. Midwar is about farming people not creeps ffs.

People will always say yes to changes because they "want to something new" so I strongly suggest... create new additional midwar mode like "campwar" or something and test it. Don't make mistakes from past. After 2-4 week you will know what ppl think about it. Probably it will fail because its smashing the main idea of midwar.

So. Answer is no. No more camps. Midwar is for mid war as name says. 

P.s. asking mw community here is pointless because ppl who play midwar do not join forum. Forum is for bored maniacs. 

Edited by VaYha

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I messaged in the high mmr midwars EU and NA discords. Consensus is yes. I didn't receive any no's, actually.

The most feedback I got is there should be 1 on each side 100%.

  • Without 2, it can be used as a boring way of preventing comebacks. Eg. push wave, farm ancients. Will take 20 minutes to get a big enough advantage to end. 20 boring minutes.
  • Without 2, whichever side has the advantage to ancients will be favoured (this one is more obvious)

An interesting feedback I got was to move zorgath further more into the corner to prevent it being used to reliably backdoor (and be used to reliably take a teamfight with the advantage you get), and then put the ancient camp where zorgath is. I think this is one of the only solutions to the 1 neutral camp only option. Could have stairs/a path going around the ancients to the zorgath area.

I would much rather see a medium camp. This allows heroes like legio, solstice, ra, salo, etc to successfully accrue advantages as they are supposed to in foc. Additionally, it enables whispering helm as the aura creeps are actually useful. The wolf commander, fire ogre and frost ogre would all be very useful in midwars, and I would wager that a medium camp would enable ophelia and parasite more than an ancient camp. (ophelia/parasite are already weak, their only strength is early snowballing, getting astro, pbox, sols and ending, but with a medium camp you can provide buffs to your teammates in the early game before any hero can have whispering helm).

 

The rest of my post isn't related to the ancient camp, but is simply another suggestion I have to prevent turtling.

Nerf T1 towers but make them provide regen, or magic armor if you are within range of an ally tower.

This allows tower diving, while maintaining the advantage you get within the tower. The difference being you have to hold your tower line to prevent it from falling.

Move the T2 towers closer to the shrine. This will allow more aggressive positioning by whoever is pushing, while still being punishable as there are many was to flank if properly set up. I feel like where the T2 towers currently are is simply too good of a defensive position, and in high midwars, in 'tryhard' (coordinated, not pub) games the T1 is almost never pushed before 3-4 items, and if it is, the lane equilibirum is still at mid. There is 0 incentive to go to push the T2 early on, and is considered a throw. 

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1)  No.  The focus should be on team fight action.

2). Single camp.  The focus should be on contention and team fight action.

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I think it would be a good addition with an ancients camp for each team. The first 5 minutes of a midwars game is usually spend sitting on your own hill, with both teams are waiting for the other to overextend. With this change, you could accelerate this dead-period.

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On 7/7/2020 at 11:54 PM, VaYha said:

Stop doing midwar like caldavar. Midwar is not intended to be pve mode. It should be pure pvp. Suffering for pariste or ophelia is joke comparing to full balance so let's forget it. Every time any player is going farming top camp, it weakens team... it's like 4vs5 and its catastrophe. Midwar is about farming people not creeps ffs.

People will always say yes to changes because they "want to something new" so I strongly suggest... create new additional midwar mode like "campwar" or something and test it. Don't make mistakes from past. After 2-4 week you will know what ppl think about it. Probably it will fail because its smashing the main idea of midwar.

So. Answer is no. No more camps. Midwar is for mid war as name says. 

P.s. asking mw community here is pointless because ppl who play midwar do not join forum. Forum is for bored maniacs. 

How do you propose to stallbreak if there is no neutral camp?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sorais said:

 

How do you propose to stallbreak if there is no neutral camp?

Incentivize “action”!  Create in-game mechanics to reward aggressiveness.

Unsubstantiated and unsolicited personal brainstorm example ideas without thinking through the ramifications:

-Passive gold per second decreases the further you are from nearest enemy tower, and increases the closer you are.

-Passive gold per second increases for every enemy tower you have destroyed.

-Death gold: if you die your team gets gold.  (The killing team still needs to get more though, obviously)

-Much shorter respawn timers early game (such as when all towers are up)

 

Edited by MacroHard
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Posted (edited)

1&2) I would personally have the current Hard Camp replaced with a mix of Hard/Ancient camp. Having a camp spawning main creep from hard camp pool of creeps (only Skeleton King / Minotaur / Vagabond Leader / Catman Champion) alongside one main Ancient Creep (Bettle Queen / Predasaur Crusher / Dragon Master) without any of it's side mobs

I believe that would be a best middle ground, as some heroes require Ancients to their staff effect. I wound not like adding another new camp to have people spread more around the map farming instead of fighting more. In fact I would love to see current camp be moved a bit closer to the center as well so it would actually encourage players to to kill it, and both team initialize the fight over them. Having it so far out results with people usually sneaking out to kill them.  Having them closer along with an additional ancient mob spawning providing extra gold, would encourage players to fight over them more.

Edited by Shoy
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24 minutes ago, Shoy said:

1&2) I would personally have the current Hard Camp replaced with a mix of Hard/Ancient camp. Having a camp spawning main creep from hard camp pool of creeps (only Skeleton King / Minotaur / Vagabond Leader / Catman Champion) alongside one main Ancient Creep (Bettle Queen / Predasaur Crusher / Dragon Master) without any of it's side mobs

I believe that would be a best middle ground, as some heroes require Ancients to their staff effect. I wound not like adding another new camp to have people spread more around the map farming instead of fighting more. In fact I would love to see current camp be moved a bit closer to the center as well so it would actually encourage players to to kill it, and both team initialize the fight over them. Having it so far out results with people usually sneaking out to kill them.  Having them closer along with an additional ancient mob spawning providing extra gold, would encourage players to fight over them more.

This is probably the best idea I've seen here so far 🙂 I'll look into it more.

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Missions could be added. 

 

F.e 5 min in where neutrals are- make a (meatball?;))tower that you need to Channel for 10s to take over. This tower would grant sucessful team 200g each and an increased gpm for 3 minutes and +10% dmg to buildings. 

(Something like that) and after 3 minutes the tower becomes neutral and 2 min CD rdy to be Up again by min 10. 

This time 400 Gold/each increased gpm and +20% to buildings . Etc

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The single mixed camp had not occurred to me but i would agree this could be a solid solution, it would however make early jungling impossible.

 

I also strongly feel that making the camp impossible to stack would be a positive move.

 

As for the suggestions from "high mmr midwars and eu discords", these suggestions seem to be centred around 5 man queues and coordinated teams, the vast majority of people who play midwars are solo or small queue with average at best team coordination. I feel that if those suggestions were implemented the game mode would get a lot more passive, most of the suggestions seem to incentivise turtling.

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