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MerryHONmas

New Type of Debuff: Oblivion

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Introductionairy:
HoN has a broad variety of debuffs and negative status effects, that are ment to counter certain abilities or items and/or their mechanics. In short, allow a player to deal with certain situations. I have always found it a bit of a shortcoming that there is not a single debuff, that shuts down passives.
We have disarm, silence, root/immobilize/restrain,  perplexed and hard cc (stun/morph). But we don't have Oblivion.
 

Explanation:
From my perspective an item should exist that allows a player to shut down a units passive (with certain mechanical exceptions such as passives that increase your stats values) for a short duration, to make them more vulnerable or less viable for the duration.
Such as for example Armardon's ultimate or third skill, Gladiator's Flagellation, Silhouette's Relentless Salvo, Adrenaline's passive, whatnotelse.
 

Reasoning:
With every type of mechanic having a counter availlable, passives for the majority (except Night Hound's ultimate) are unaffected by anything.
Certain heroes evolve around the ability to cast spells and quickly may be shut down via Hell Flower.
Others rely on their abilities to impact the match through the means of attacking, against which we have for example Spiked Bola.
Certain heroes have superior abilities of movement and positioning, for which there exists Sand Sceptre.
And then there are those that are heavily loaded with passives or have passives that are just annoying to deal with but do not actually have a true counter mechanic to this day.

I would like to see an approach, that allows players to also respond to those passives as they are able to respond to attacks or spellcasting

Thus introducing a new type of debuff: Oblivion.

Elaboration:
I personally would like to suggest the debuff to last for example 3-5 seconds (upgradeable item?) and since it is a debuff can be purged or dispelled.
The item hellflower could be used as a template and I believe there are still a few unused icon templates left too that could be applied. The item itself should cost around 3700 to 4100 gold, to not make it a mandatory pickup but rather an optional choice for mid to lategame when certain passives start to provide just too much of a benefit to be left entirely unchecked.
In terms of stats the item should not grant as many (offensive!!!) benefits as Hellflower currently does, again, to turn it into a more optional niche item rather than a mandatory pickup. It could provide a little bit of HP and Mana, some raw stats to make it viable on every hero yet not too practical (as for example Brutalizer used to be in the old days). Aswell as a little bit of both HP and Mana regen.
Examplory ingredients could be as follows: Beastheart, Ring of the Teacher (Ring, Scarab), Sustainer (Lifetube/Manatube), Soulscream Ring, recipe.
Mechanics could be as follows: On activation target an opponent hero within 550 units range to apply Oblivion for 3.5 seconds (and maybe a 3 second lingering 35% movementspeed slow to both you and the target).
Will be blocked by Nullstone or similar abilities. Targetscheme is superior magic, singletarget plus self. Is a debuff.
Will exclude / ignore / not affect abilities
(or their respective part) that sole grants stats (Devourer's Cadaver Armor, Shadow Blade's indefinitely lingering stat buff state after casting ultimate, vindicator's passive aspect that grants him intelligence, and so on).

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It's called break in dota. 

 

What's truly difficult about it is coding and scripting exactly what break stops and what it does not. 

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I stopped playing DotA2 yeeeeeeears ago so I am completely out of it's loop should such a thing already exist. So that is not where I took the inspiration from.

Would that make it less likely to ever become a thing or actually straightup impossible to ever become a thing if I may ask?
I do see your point though and I already had my thoughts on how it could work to begin with but since I know jacksh*t about coding (everything past beginner level) I did not want to make any assumptions (yeah I know).

But if I may also ask, would you personally even consider this a useful addition as per concept or already object to it's theoretical inclusion?!

3 hours ago, ElementUser said:

It's called break in dota. 

 

What's truly difficult about it is coding and scripting exactly what break stops and what it does not. 

 

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Posted (edited)

It would take a lot of hardcoding to do it properly for every single ability on the XML script level (a lot of manual work to do & hard to maintain every time an ability is changed). From now on, I will refer to the trait as "Break".

 

Technicals aside for maintenance purposes & QA-testing, the only clear benefits are addressing certain passive abilities that have limited counterplay (e.g. Armadon E, old Sand Wraith E, etc.).

 

Other than that, how intuitive would it be & which parts of a passive ability should it actually disable to the average HoN player? What about passive abilities that are integral to how a skill functions. Examples:

 

- Parallax's Q - if you disable the Fulcrum, does it disable everything that relies on an integral part of the passive?
- Silhouette's Q - how do you handle this? Do you disable the blades & remove them while Break is active? Do they spin but deal 0 damage (and cause no visual feedback saying that they're disabled & unharmful)? Will you still be able to fire the Q blades while Break is active? Etc.
- Ellonia's hidden "Frosted" state application on each of her abilities - does it disable that? Script-side, that is manually scripted onto every skill, rather than it coming from a "passive" skill.
- Staff of the Master: should Break disable SotM's effects of boosting a hero's abilities?
- Items: should it disable the stat bonuses?
- Abilities: what if an ability gives +MS or +Stats? Should it disable those?
- Integral parts of an ability: let's say a timer controls the logic for some feature & freezing the timer would cause a bug to occur in the game due to a de-sync with the timer & the integral part of the ability. However, a player thinks that the ability's timer should be disabled but it's not. Does it make sense to the player that these exceptions are the way they are on a design level, even though they have to be exclusions to prevent other bugs from breaking the game behaviours?

There are many cases like this & the answer is never really concrete in these cases.

 

___

 

For the time being, there aren't any plans to implement Break in HoN. It has been discussed & even tested in SBT a few years ago, but the developers who worked on the code-side (C++) of things couldn't get it to work well & there was practically no documentation on how it actually functioned.

Edited by ElementUser

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Regarding Silhouette for example, I actually had spent some very interesting minutes on figuring out just that.
If compared to silence, you will notice that when applied the blades maintain circling around her but she won't be able to activate them.
When being "broken" (tbh I think that term might be particularly misleading so I will stick with "oblivion" personally :P) it should render those blades either inactive (maybe a shade continuing to circle but not dealing the damage, unless activated) or dormant (entirely disabled until the state lingers off at which point they remain from exactly where they went dormant.

Since in case of Parallax the ability is part of the entire kit, it would not impact the effect of the charges (mana stats) but disable the bonusdamage granted by the passive for the time being.

Stats should be excepted from this type of effect sole to avoid breaking interactions and pace of balance in a match (for example cadaver armour, or vindicators passive etc). Movementspeed arguably could be included on the other hand as that is a "stat" that highly fluctuates during teamfights anyway, considering a fair amount of abilities manipulates that stat and should continue to do so  as do certain items already, so I don't see why that should be excluded.

staff of the Master is not a passive, it is an item, thus the question (in my oppinion) is selfexplanatorily answered with a resounding no. Should the staff boost a Heroes passive then that passive would be disabled for its duration by default.

Ellonias stat is a debuff that is being applied and handled by a different mechanic, purge or immunity and since it is per definition embedded in the abilities it should remain. unlike for example Pyromancer's Fervor which is applied via a passive that also grants him attackspeed (would be disabled too).

regarding integral timers if you could please provide me with an example as i am a bit at a loss at to what you mean here 😕

(all of these just my definitions of the mechanic)

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Posted (edited)

I wasn't asking those questions to ask you or anyone for explicit answers, I was asking them to prove a point. You proved the point for me, as in it's not obvious what should happen for certain mechanics.

Edited by ElementUser
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well but that would imply you have a differing oppinion and in the end i created this thread also to receive some input so i'd be curious to learn of your oppinion as to how it should interact.
I had a hunch that those were rethorical questions but i chose to answer because i was hoping to receive just that, more input.
at the end of the day, receiving different oppinions and learning of new things i had not considered before, is what helps me evaluate future propositions 😕

so should you find the time and interest to share those thoughts, i'd be genuinely delighted and curious to expand my horizone.

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Could we just roll certain passives into Silence like the way Night Hound's Invisibility works?

If it's a huge issue for very specific heroes it's probably better to look at the offending heroes in general and come up with a more organic way to do it.


I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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We could & can also selectively target which passives it would affect. Although Silence is much more accessible so it will certainly give heroes with silence a powerful buff.

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2 hours ago, ElementUser said:

We could & can also selectively target which passives it would affect. Although Silence is much more accessible so it will certainly give heroes with silence a powerful buff.

I suppose then it comes down to 2 questions:

1) Which Passives are problematic enough to warrant counterplay with Silence or Perplex or whatever?

2) How does one go about doing it? What condition?

I really think adding Break is kind of kludgey personally.


I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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which is precisely why i suggested it tho, to avoid buffing silence too much and if it works with being added to silence then why not clone the silence debuff and repurpose it and apply it to a new item which would then in turn not completely break silence on heroes or flower (which already is ultra strong) but also force a player to commit an item slot for the sole purpose of it...

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