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You are again stuck on a deserted island...  

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  1. 1. You are again stuck on a deserted island...

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4 hours ago, datfizh said:

@w3_StarBoy what do you think about this statement? I believe you advocated how weak Nitro compared to other carries.

Nitro is weak when she play against silence-hero because Silence debuff reduce a lot of her damage. Disarm cut off 100% her damage. Nitro is good when you play against the enemy team that dont have any strong burst hero or skill to stop her from move/attack

I dont play Nitro often because my favourite role is not hard-carry but i could say nitro was fine as a ranged carry heroes. When she ulti, you better dont run if you dont have any way to escape, just fight straight, if nitro dont have W to push enemy back, her damage is decent.
When i play nitro, if i fat enough, i always buy frostburn frist, frostburn allow nitro to keep stay aways enemy heroes and increase her survival very good, orther wise i just buy Energize and Savage Mace. Nullfire Blade is good but the DPS somehow is serious problem. I see Nullfireblade as a de-null tool rather than DPS items. Because nitro is always focus on DPS items, it easy to kill her if you catch her. Many game i played with nitro on orther team, most of them end up with hypercrown (???) and nullfire, even nitro own the games. The chance to come back is high because nitro is easy to shut down with Spike Bola, sheepstick, StormSpirit, Disable, Silence, ...

The people who die by nitro too much just simple dont know how to play against her.

If you looking for the hero that counter Nitro hard. I suggest EW with spike bola, bubles, Scout, Swiftblade, Archrana

Edited by w3_StarBoy
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The same poll.... Oh dear.   Oh yeah, the regular Balance/Design subforum rules don't apply in this thread (but the global forum rules still do). You can chat about almost anything you want

In keeping in the spirit of HoN, I feel like a place for people to have less formal discussion about Balance while still having a place to discuss Balance is required. Sometimes there are discussions

Honestly Blacksmith IS the RNG. What would be his identity without it? You could do something similar to Legionnaire but with the power of a 1600 Damage Multicast on the line its a little more than ju

2 hours ago, Acnowlogia said:

Yes, I just understood it from watching the replay yesterday. The solution to avoiding Ballistic is to do anything but moving further from the target, which means you are not getting out of his attack range. So one is forced to either suffer from unlimited attacks till death, or move in and intercept the hero until either one go down if he doesn't want to get out of Nitro attack range. Hence, the best option for most is just to take the damage and get out of his attack range for a refresh.

Now as I have answered your question, would you be so kind as to give a proper answer to mine?

Guess what Devourer did then - he misses hook, then Nitro capitalized accordingly. Without the threat of hook, a well played Nitro can kite you all day. He also ran away every single time he got shot. The way to beat her was to always have the threat of hook around and have the pressure of ally ganks. It's the same way you beat Arachna and other dominant mid heroes, and that's pressuring them and knowing when to step in and when to hold back. 

 

Hero is working as intended, design-wise. Nitro is able to do her damage a little too frequently because of the low mana costs on her abilities, but generally speaking she is doing what she is designed to do. She just needed some time before players knew the best lane to play her. 

Edited by ElementUser
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2 hours ago, ElementUser said:

Guess what Devourer did then - he misses hook, then Nitro capitalized accordingly. Without the threat of hook, a well played Nitro can kite you all day. He also ran away every single time he got shot. The way to beat her was to always have the threat of hook around and have the pressure of ally ganks. It's the same way you beat Arachna and other dominant mid heroes, and that's pressuring them and knowing when to step in and when to hold back. 

 

Hero is working as intended, design-wise. Nitro is able to do her damage a little too frequently because of the low mana costs on her abilities, but generally speaking she is doing what she is designed to do. She just needed some time before players knew the best lane to play her. 

I don't agree with what you are saying. The only correct point that you stated was both Nitro and Arachna are dominant mid heroes, but you misevaluated the fact that Nitro is significantly more dominating than Arachna. The threat of hook is not such a big pressure. If you had checked the replay you would have noticed that Nitro was always behind creeps so he's rather safe regardless of the threat of a hook. And fighting a Nitro is completely different from fighting an Arachna, eventhough both are dominant mid-laners. Arachna does not kill you within 3s and she can't disrupt your channeling, while Nitro can do both. Being focused by an Arachna, you can attempt to counter gank and even if you fail, it's is always possible to escape by tping out. As a Devo I would be confident enough to not die to an Arachna. In fact, if the same situation happened in this game but the opponent I faced was an Arachna instead of a Nitro, I am guaranteed to have a significantly higher chance to win mid.

Of course you are talking about the pressure of an ally gank, but is it not the threat for every single hero in the game, not only to Nitro? How does it even relate to my argument? Is there even a hero in the game that was designed so that it can win a 1v2 situation during laning phase?

If it helps, statistical-wise, Devo was a 2150 MMR mid player, and Nitro was someone who just reached 1850 (apparently by playing a lot of Nitro games and win most of them in his previous 50 games). Devo is a player who has close to 90% chance of winning the laning phase playing versus any lower rating player. With that statistics, and the fact that he loses 100% of the games against any Nitro player, I think it is safe to say that Nitro is overpowered, no less.

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The threat of hook is huge pressure.

I don't know what you're on about. Once Devo misses hook he has literally 0 threat unless you're a melee and he can Decay you.

Also saying that hero X has a Y% win rate in mid, and loses to certain heroes is a good thing. No hero should auto win mid by virtue of just being selected.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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1 hour ago, Hubaris said:

The threat of hook is huge pressure.

I don't know what you're on about. Once Devo misses hook he has literally 0 threat unless you're a melee and he can Decay you.

Please read carefully my explanation above before attempting to comment to avoid something completely out of context.

Quote

Also saying that hero X has a Y% win rate in mid, and loses to certain heroes is a good thing. No hero should auto win mid by virtue of just being selected.

I do not understand what you really mean by this. But I agree with your very last sentence. In this case the Nitro-picker went straight from Gold I to Legendary II with 31 wins, 6 losses on Nitro. Before that he had 50% winrate at Gold I rank, around 500 wins and 500 losses. Did he suddenly improve to such an extent that a Gold I player can easily beat a Legendary II game and beat an Immortal opponent 100% of the games whenever he picks Nitro? I simply find it hard to believe.

 

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14 minutes ago, Acnowlogia said:

Please read carefully my explanation above before attempting to comment to avoid something completely out of context.

I do not understand what you really mean by this. But I agree with your very last sentence. In this case the Nitro-picker went straight from Gold I to Legendary II with 31 wins, 6 losses on Nitro. Before that he had 50% winrate at Gold I rank, around 500 wins and 500 losses. Did he suddenly improve to such an extent that a Gold I player can easily beat a Legendary II game and beat an Immortal opponent 100% of the games whenever he picks Nitro? I simply find it hard to believe.

 

Quote

The threat of hook is not such a big pressure. If you had checked the replay you would have noticed that Nitro was always behind creeps so he's rather safe regardless of the threat of a hook.

That just means that the Nitro is positioning properly against Devourer. If Devo can't win the lane that is clearly meant to stomp him he should force the other lanes to be scared then. Perhaps the Devo should have just picked Succubus and crushed Nitro at every turn. I don't see how this isn't working as intended.

Also you fail to mention that Nitro is effectively a 'new' hero still, especially in higher brackets as people have only started to really use her. People are very adverse to change, higher level players are actually the worst for that. They find a strategy that works and usually fail to innovate until it fails way too much. This player hasn't innovated, has not adapted, and thus will die.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Yeah, I never said that Nitro doesn't deserve a nerf. I'm saying that Nitro is doing what she is meant to do when abusing her strengths to the fullest extent at the most opportune time.

Edited by ElementUser
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23 minutes ago, Hubaris said:

That just means that the Nitro is positioning properly against Devourer. If Devo can't win the lane that is clearly meant to stomp him he should force the other lanes to be scared then. Perhaps the Devo should have just picked Succubus and crushed Nitro at every turn. I don't see how this isn't working as intended.

Also you fail to mention that Nitro is effectively a 'new' hero still, especially in higher brackets as people have only started to really use her. People are very adverse to change, higher level players are actually the worst for that. They find a strategy that works and usually fail to innovate until it fails way too much. This player hasn't innovated, has not adapted, and thus will die.

You still fail to see the point raised here. The point is what hero in this game can kill any strength hero in 3s after hitting casually a few times? Nitro could be playing against a lot of opponents, including Panda, Pebbles, Pestilence and even Salforis and kill them in a few hits just like he did with Devo. There are some heroes that can dominate the lane like Nitro did, i admit, but which one can dominate it with so little risk and leave so little room for action? Of course Succubus is a counter hero among the very few, does it mean a counter hero must be picked every single time someone pick Nitro in order to have a shot at winning the game? Let's use my very specific example to elaborate it into a broader sense of meta instead of focusing on strategic discussion.

 

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8 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

Yeah, I never said that Nitro doesn't deserve a nerf. I'm saying that Nitro is doing what she is meant to do when abusing her strengths to the fullest extent at the most opportune time.

I would like to address a rather general question as well. The average GPM has increased upward by a considerable amount over the year, as a result the meta also shifted in the way that a hero's weakness can be easily covered with cheap starting items. Particularly, heavy nuking (intelligence) heroes which used to be mid-laners are now less suitable/efficient for the role comparing to other strength and agility heroes. Take for example Pyro, Chipper, Deadwood, Ellonia, Dampeer, Torturer... are becoming less effective at mid due to losing efficiency in solo-gank capability, caused by the quick GPM accrue and cheap starting item purchases (Plated Grieves, Shaman's Headress, Astrolabe, Nome Wisdom). A new wave of emerging combat heroes is becoming more prominent because they can quickly farm cheap item, have better survivability and is more dynamic in both teamwork situation and solo situation (such as Gunblade, Gauntlet, Arachna, Flint Beastwood, Gladiator...). I guess new meta changes over time is perfectly expectable, but for some classic traditional mid heroes like Pyro, Ellonia or Torturer, do the developer envisage them to fall out of their role and switch to more suitably side-laning, supporting roles, or this is an unintended consequence that it yet to be explored further?

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17 minutes ago, Acnowlogia said:

You still fail to see the point raised here. The point is what hero in this game can kill any strength hero in 3s after hitting casually a few times? Nitro could be playing against a lot of opponents, including Panda, Pebbles, Pestilence and even Salforis and kill them in a few hits just like he did with Devo. There are some heroes that can dominate the lane like Nitro did, i admit, but which one can dominate it with so little risk and leave so little room for action? Of course Succubus is a counter hero among the very few, does it mean a counter hero must be picked every single time someone pick Nitro in order to have a shot at winning the game? Let's use my very specific example to elaborate it into a broader sense of meta instead of focusing on strategic discussion.

 

Using your very specific example is purely anecdotal. I don't think Devo played well at all and continually ran into shrapnel. 

What's the difference between using your very specific example versus my specific example with Succubus stomping Nitro?

Nitro probably needs a little mana cost nerf on Q but that's really it honestly. Devo is a garbage hero for the most part, if he fails to hook he does nothing. If he Decays you you just trade shot for shot with him because he's taking equal damage early game before Cadaver becomes active, and you didn't waste a skill point on Decay. 

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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40 minutes ago, Hubaris said:

Using your very specific example is purely anecdotal. I don't think Devo played well at all and continually ran into shrapnel. 

What's the difference between using your very specific example versus my specific example with Succubus stomping Nitro?

Nitro probably needs a little mana cost nerf on Q but that's really it honestly. Devo is a garbage hero for the most part, if he fails to hook he does nothing. If he Decays you you just trade shot for shot with him because he's taking equal damage early game before Cadaver becomes active, and you didn't waste a skill point on Decay. 

How about other strength heroes like the ones I mentioned? For example Pebbles which is even complained as overpowered at some point in this thread?

I already said that Succubus could be a counter to Nitro, and then I follow up with an argument that there are only a few heroes like Succubus who can do that. So are you saying that every time your opponent pick Nitro you are going to have to pick Succubus (or the few like her) to get a shot at winning the lane? You see where I am going with this? Indeed because of the very niche requirement for counter hero, if someone picking a Nitro then the meta suddenly becomes much more limited than usual. Same case with Oggie or Salomon, someone with regen-ability debuff is always needed.

And of course nobody was able to justify why a Gold I player can suddenly burst to Legendary II with over 85% winrate on Nitro.

Edited by Acnowlogia
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17 minutes ago, Acnowlogia said:

And of course nobody was able to justify why a Gold I player can suddenly burst to Legendary II with over 85% winrate on Nitro.

Either nitro op or account sharing ?

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It's like I said before, it took some time for people to figure out where to lane Nitro & how to abuse her, so some nerfs are justifiable, balance-wise. Design-wise, she's still fine.

Let's see how she does next patch - you always have the option of banning her if you feel that she's oppressive.

Edited by ElementUser
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4 hours ago, ElementUser said:

It's like I said before, it took some time for people to figure out where to lane Nitro & how to abuse her, so some nerfs are justifiable, balance-wise. Design-wise, she's still fine.

Let's see how she does next patch - you always have the option of banning her if you feel that she's oppressive.

Thank you for heeding the call! Let's see how she does next patch, for now i'll stick to insta-ban.

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Most of the ban from SEA is Sil / Dark lady - peb - bubles - DR - Vindi/pesti. ( and nighthound by me)

In my game, the orther team always ban King Klout, Blitz/Engi cause i and my friend abuse those hero too much, lol ?

I rare see nitro get banned, she's not a problem for me even when she is picked 

HoN SEA Player

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@ElementUser Also regarding the Nitro balancing, what do you think about rescaling his Q damage so that he has less dominance during early and early-mid game phase (lvl 1-11)? From my argument, it is mainly attributed to the fact that Nitro is dealing significantly more damage than other heroes in short burst especially in the early game. That gives him large space for snowballing in later phases. A rescale of damage could do the trick of keeping the hero carry potential while nerfing his early dominating presence.

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