Jump to content

You are again stuck on a deserted island...  

33 members have voted

  1. 1. You are again stuck on a deserted island...

    • Eat Foot
      17
    • Eat Spouse
      16


Recommended Posts

Pebbles played pretty well though, he had Power Supply & Bottle and capitalized on his snowball like he should + baited the enemy's greed and punished them for the failed gank. The gank with Vindicator (that doesn't have much gank viable CC compared to other supports) didn't succeed & Vindicator could've autoattacked twice more.

 

At higher level play, Pebbles would just be dual-midded against so he can't last-hit.

 

I don't really see much of an issue with the turn of events, it's just that he snowballed pretty hard & got lucky with a Haste Rune against Deadwood & had boots whereas Parallax didn't escape when Pebbles was in a threatening Q range.

 

What looks like more of an issue that is actually more debatable is the cooldown/mana cost of W, his own mana pool, and maybe his last-hitting power. I don't really see anything wrong with that specific game though. Pebbles was buffed in the past about 1 -2 years ago because the hero was out of touch with the power level at the time, so now it's possible to nerf his mana pool again to gate his spells once again, as that was the mechanic that was keeping him in check.

 

I can consider it in a future patch, but I'm still convinced the hero is overall more or less fine. The enemy's team comp didn't have enough reliable early burst/CC to deal with Pebbles, so :3

 

Pebbles was actually playing exactly as he should if he has a snowball lead like that. It's how the hero has always worked.

Edited by ElementUser
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 262
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

The same poll.... Oh dear.   Oh yeah, the regular Balance/Design subforum rules don't apply in this thread (but the global forum rules still do). You can chat about almost anything you want

I'd love to. I think the main frustration factor with Adrenaline was mitigated when the change to his Q cooldown occurred. He is no longer able to create large one-sided fights with a 3>2.25&g

Let's rock and roll with Adrenaline. I've suffered enough testing that previous design, time to reap the rewards. Just so it isn't lost on Discord, can we please let Adrenaline cast his W outside

8 hours ago, ElementUser said:

Pebbles played pretty well though, he had Power Supply & Bottle and capitalized on his snowball like he should + baited the enemy's greed and punished them for the failed gank. The gank with Vindicator (that doesn't have much gank viable CC compared to other supports) didn't succeed & Vindicator could've autoattacked twice more.

 

At higher level play, Pebbles would just be dual-midded against so he can't last-hit.

 

I don't really see much of an issue with the turn of events, it's just that he snowballed pretty hard & got lucky with a Haste Rune against Deadwood & had boots whereas Parallax didn't escape when Pebbles was in a threatening Q range.

 

What looks like more of an issue that is actually more debatable is the cooldown/mana cost of W, his own mana pool, and maybe his last-hitting power. I don't really see anything wrong with that specific game though. Pebbles was buffed in the past about 1 -2 years ago because the hero was out of touch with the power level at the time, so now it's possible to nerf his mana pool again to gate his spells once again, as that was the mechanic that was keeping him in check.

 

I can consider it in a future patch, but I'm still convinced the hero is overall more or less fine. The enemy's team comp didn't have enough reliable early burst/CC to deal with Pebbles, so :3

 

Pebbles was actually playing exactly as he should if he has a snowball lead like that. It's how the hero has always worked.

No you've not answered the points raised. Which other hero can do this? Seriously, answer it. Which other hero can score a kill at 2 minutes in with a Solstice gank, survive a 1v2 gank, dive towers and kill opponents at full HP, and do it again and again? I've already repeatedly said that Pebbles is the only hero who can do all this without using ultimate, which is a big deal. You simply cannot snowball like this with a hero like Succubus, Wretched Hag or Deadwood. You cannot dominate the 10-15 minute phase with a hero like Succubus, Wretched Hag or Deadwood. It's just plain not possible.

You can say "but you can dual lane against him", except 1) dual mid is extraordinarily rare even in high tier TMM, it only shows up in captain's pick, and 2) if you do get dualed against, the best hero to 1v2 with is a melee strength hero, which Pebbles is.

You can keep saying "I'm not convinced Pebbles isn't overpowered", but at this point I'm almost certain that nothing will convince you. If you don't agree with that, spell it out: what does it take to convince you that Pebbles is overpowered?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont think Pebbles need nerf. This hero may be throw into trash tier with just a small touch. The power of pebbles is about how fastest he can get a PK. It's doesn't matter if he win or lose mid. If he cant get his Pk soon, he's not a danger threat
Counter Peb isn't hard also. If his combo do ~1000 magic damage. Then vestman and some little hp Boost will make pebbles more harder to play. We have soultrap, power supply, Energize and they are cheap

HoN SEA Player

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's my thoughts on some changes I'd like to see post-4.86. Sorry if it is very disconnected from the current conversation, I just didn't know where to post it where it would last. 

 

Gladiator:

Problems- Glad is a bit too strong right now.  I don't mind heroes dealing big damage if they have to work for it, but currently Glad's damage output is just so free., which makes him so strong mid lane (or any lane really).

It mostly stems from Showdown: it has a very low mana cost and has essentially no counter-play early to mid game for most heroes. As long as Gladiator can count to 2, he can pitfall and/or combo. And as long as you're within 400 range, you can be Showdowned, and grounded into place for essentially 4 seconds. Once you do level it up, it is essentially a death sentence in team fights or ganks unless the enemy has a storm spirit or shrunken head. It just does too much in my opinion for a measly 60 mana. 

I also think the whip is a tad too strong when it comes too frequency. It's easiness to hit your opponent paired with frequency make Glad's life too easy to push your opponent out of lane or just get an easy kill. 

In the end, my main point I want to get through is that a hero with such high damage output and killing potential should not be easy to play. And if the hero is easy to play, the numbers should be toned down. Glad is a very easy hero.

Solutions- all suggestions are all meant to be distinct of each other

  • Revert Showdown progression to 1/2/3/4 seconds 
  • Increase mana cost of Showdown
  • Increase CD of Whip
  • Tighten range of Whip
  • Half the added damage from the Whip when denying
  • Increase CD of Ulti (60s for a 600 damage AoE nuke and 50% damage reduction is a little much )

 

Moira:

Problems- I mostly take issue with Arcane Vortex. It's an absurdly strong AoE CC that can't be stopped and is among the same levels of impact as chronos and sapphire, but it has about half the cooldown and costs only 275 mana. I also don't like how you can't punish a deeply and dangerously placed Forge copy before it finishes spawning. Moira can already summon it from 5000 away, she should have to place it at least smartly.

Solutions-

  • Increase CD of Vortex
  • Increase mana cost of Vortex
  • Allow for the Copy to be killed before it is ready for use
  • Lower max radius of the vortex

 

Hammer:

Problems- Hammer's main issue right now is the splash radius on his cleave. The radial cleave is a good idea, but the 450 radius is a little under an andromeda auto attack away. He's already a very strong hero that's easy to play, so can we just dumb down the numbers a little?

Solutions-

  • Lower the damage on the Might Swing cleave
  • Lower radius of Mighty Swing
  • Lower damage of Mighty Swing the further away the enemy is from the center, be it linearly, exponentially, or some other formula
  • Increase the mana cost of Galvanize a little

 

Xemplar:

Problems- Xemplars greatest enemy in the game is Arcane Bomb. I get that it was made specifically for him and Sand Wraith, but I think for Xemplar, it's just too effective for 1700 gold and change. I feel like I've had fights where I used ulti, Q and W'd, then by the time I reached my target my illusions were all gone.

Solutions-

  • Give Illusions that he spawns a temporary 2-5 second anti-magic barrier that helps deal with soaking up damage so he can get at least one Q off. The shield could be a flat number, or it could block X instances of direct magic damage.

 

Poly:

Problems- Poly's Electric Jolt has been too free for a while. It's a simple point and click harass tool that only requires sight to hit very far targets. Compared to other mid heroes that have these far reaching nukes like Pyro, Defiler, Bubbles, or Ellonia, Poly doesn't really have any counterplay. If you are standing (I think) within 500 of an archer and he has sight of you, you are getting hit. 

Solutions-

  • Change Jolt back to purely a cone
  • Lower the damage of Jolt
  • Increase the mana cost of Jolt

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Pebbles nerf when??

I'm so sick of this hero escaping the ban phase. He's good with items, still OK without items. Last hits like a madman, can AoE farm even if he's shut down early. If he dies after he PKs that's fine, if he doesn't die after he PKs he remains a big threat even if he escapes with 100 HP. He's tanky as hell, impossible to trade hits with and doesn't need setup to land his burst. If he gets even the slightest bit early PK he will one-shot half the heroes on the other team, after which even if he dies it's OK because the other team must commit a lot of damage to actually kill him and his teammates can punish them for it. Even if he can't one-shot his target he can keep the target stunned for like 4+ seconds, during which he gets to autoattack at least twice with 200+ damage autos, which means he can do a ton of damage even to Strength heroes, not to mention set up for teammates like Valkyrie and Nymphora. He's good in normal mode and good in casual mode. There's nothing not overpowered about him and yet somehow he keeps not getting nerfed. Wtf?

This hero (and DR) ruin TMM likes no other. Please check his win rates in the higher brackets because at this point if he's not banned, he's getting picked.

Edited by Sorais
Link to post
Share on other sites

What would you Nerf about him without completely doing his thing? Numbers?

Honestly I feel like people are undervaluing Steams (yet again) as well as early stat items such as Power Supply and such. He's definitely strong but it's not like HP Damage is uncounterable.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Next patch for Pebbles, reduction in Base Int & a small cooldown increase on W (maybe Q) is all I'm doing.

You have to remember that Pebbles was buffed to keep up with HoN's inflated power level, when the power level started getting high from like 2016. Pebbles got buffed in January 2019 to keep up, but by late 2019/mid 2020, I've adjusted the game's power level so that it has fallen & Pebbles may just be a bit too good relative to that.

 

His damage output is fine, so long as its availability/frequency is limited properly. Bringing back his weaknesses from before just a bit is the way to go. Though for the record, most in NAEU disagree with Sorais' opinion about Pebbles.

Edited by ElementUser
Link to post
Share on other sites

I would rather see the cooldown on Toss increased considering its one of the most powerful skills in the game. His mana issues are easily solvable but he used to have to invest into a couple of Int Items to combo consistently, so I think by giving him a little more upkeep you can slow him down without entirely crippling him.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Nbidjr said:

Why pebbles got nerf? The hero fine just now and not overpowered too. I dont understand now the game only update for nerf and reworks? If u want nerf peb give the balance too on his damage skill. 

@NbidjrYou should speak with @Sorais about that (or just read all his posts about Pebbles). I'm sure he's happy to enlighten you & rant about it further ? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/23/2020 at 3:13 AM, ElementUser said:

The main argument for the state to not be hidden (the actual state, or just the VFX) is because of the CD altering property affecting a veteran player's ability to gauge when a hero's ability cycle starts again. If that effect isn't visible, veteran players will be caught off guard by a stun/escape being available 4s later, and it could cost them a hero kill (or more).

 The VFX of runes should not be hidden, not good for the game. Runes are for everyone and its a neutral object its not like a skill or anything other than a perk. 

On 6/28/2020 at 3:09 AM, ElementUser said:

Unfortunately not =( we don't have a pip system for the shield bar & we can't dynamically represent the scaling of mana. We can only do shield bars for shields with static max health values like Moraxus.

 

It's more an issue with how drastic Electrician's shield can scale more than anything else.

Suggestion,

Rather than using the electric shield everytime it deactivates, why not make toggleable. This will make elect farm more easy, depends on manapool, and we can see the depletion of mana during damage.

 

Item Suggestion,

Brutalizer

New Components:

Slayer
Bolstering Armband
Fortified Bracer
Recipe

New Item Effects:

When off cooldown, stuns enemy for 1 seconds and deals damage.
Reduce the cooldown by 0.5 seconds for melee and 0.25 for range during cooldown for each successful attack.

Melee Cooldown: 4 seconds
Range Cooldown: 7 seconds


- Range user doesnt buy this item because the 10% bash is totally not worth the gold and will buy other effective items instead. The item is greatly bias on melee heroes with fast attack speed rate but not on the opposite.

-this will work things out and balance the item and make the it more effective than before without compormising its value and effectiveness.


 

Savage Mace
 

New effects:

No longer a grants true strike
Instantly deals 140 damage and a 0.15 second stun every time the attack miss upon hit.

Instantly stuns to channeling heroes

 

-the item is a sure counter to wingbow and make it useless.
- The primary reason why players buy wingbow is because of the sweet evasion only to be countered by mace in the end.
- a guarantee stun to channeling heroes will do a reversal in a small skirmish to a heavy teamfight making the item more valuable than before


________

I have so many rough suggestion, listing from a to z, 0-9, to present and make the game more enjoyable than before. But I will show them 1by1 for now.

Edited by DesoZaKiddo
add
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's because of the shield's dps. If it's a toggle it'd be free damage. I wish there is a another toggle button though, put it at D, that automatically reuse shield when depleted.

In fact, make it happen, then you can nerf his Q all you want.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Acnowlogia said:

@ElementUser

Revert Nitro back to previous patch please.

The reworked version of Nitro is more of a buff to the previously overpowered Nitro rather than a nerf. Take a look at this match in NAEU Client - 160006939.

At level 7 (00:12:23), Nitro and Devourer were both having similar XPM and GPM. Nitro has 2 Duckboots and 1 Punch dagger as damage items, his attack damage is 79-86. Devourer has 1 Iron Buckler + 1 minor totem, his armor is 2.6, hp is 986. Every time Nitro hits Devo, his hp drops around 100. After landing 4 attacks on Devo, his hp is at 586, he leveled up and had 620 hp. Nitro used ulti + his Q, Devo died in 3 seconds without being able to do anything.

Please explain to me if this is an intended way for Nitro to be played? I do not see any other hero being able to kill Devourer after casually hitting him 4 times, including hard counter heroes for Devo such as Drunken Master, Arachna, Slither. The only hero that can kill Devo as easy and with almost no risk as that is Engineer, but it requires prior strategic planning (e.g. placing several mines).

One might argue that Devourer's armor is too low. But imagine the majority of mid lane heroes including many intelligence and strength heroes. Unless a very small number of heroes that has an escape mechanism (Hag - blink, Flux - push, Apex - dash), any other hero with around 700hp left is guaranteed dead from 1 combo like that (Devo died with 620 hp in 3 seconds, so Nitro has 2 seconds more with ultimate). How many heroes that can take on a few hits without dropping his hp below 700? I only see a few strength heroes who could do that. But strength heroes are usually melee, so they are riskier when it comes to lane control and one small mistake could cause him to lose GPM balance. Even if the hero manages to survive until this point (like I did with Devo), things change once Nitro gets Ghost Marchers, and even worse when he gets Madfred's Knuckles. No argument needed for an intelligence hero, they might be able to clear waves but easily get rolled over once caught.

At 00:16:12, Devo had 1176 hp and 3.5 armor, Nitro had 119-126 damage. Nitro used ulti out of invisible and hit Devo 5 times. Devo hp dropped to 566 (-610), that happened in 2.5 seconds, so technically if Nitro could land his full ultimate duration, Devo is dead from a single ultimate. Again, slightly larger GPM and XPM for Nitro but not that much.

What hero can do this to Devo?

@w3_StarBoy what do you think about this statement? I believe you advocated how weak Nitro compared to other carries.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, datfizh said:

@w3_StarBoy what do you think about this statement? I believe you advocated how weak Nitro compared to other carries.

Nitro is weak when she play against silence-hero because Silence debuff reduce a lot of her damage. Disarm cut off 100% her damage. Nitro is good when you play against the enemy team that dont have any strong burst hero or skill to stop her from move/attack

I dont play Nitro often because my favourite role is not hard-carry but i could say nitro was fine as a ranged carry heroes. When she ulti, you better dont run if you dont have any way to escape, just fight straight, if nitro dont have W to push enemy back, her damage is decent.
When i play nitro, if i fat enough, i always buy frostburn frist, frostburn allow nitro to keep stay aways enemy heroes and increase her survival very good, orther wise i just buy Energize and Savage Mace. Nullfire Blade is good but the DPS somehow is serious problem. I see Nullfireblade as a de-null tool rather than DPS items. Because nitro is always focus on DPS items, it easy to kill her if you catch her. Many game i played with nitro on orther team, most of them end up with hypercrown (???) and nullfire, even nitro own the games. The chance to come back is high because nitro is easy to shut down with Spike Bola, sheepstick, StormSpirit, Disable, Silence, ...

The people who die by nitro too much just simple dont know how to play against her.

If you looking for the hero that counter Nitro hard. I suggest EW with spike bola, bubles, Scout, Swiftblade, Archrana

Edited by w3_StarBoy
  • Thanks 1

HoN SEA Player

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Acnowlogia said:

Yes, I just understood it from watching the replay yesterday. The solution to avoiding Ballistic is to do anything but moving further from the target, which means you are not getting out of his attack range. So one is forced to either suffer from unlimited attacks till death, or move in and intercept the hero until either one go down if he doesn't want to get out of Nitro attack range. Hence, the best option for most is just to take the damage and get out of his attack range for a refresh.

Now as I have answered your question, would you be so kind as to give a proper answer to mine?

Guess what Devourer did then - he misses hook, then Nitro capitalized accordingly. Without the threat of hook, a well played Nitro can kite you all day. He also ran away every single time he got shot. The way to beat her was to always have the threat of hook around and have the pressure of ally ganks. It's the same way you beat Arachna and other dominant mid heroes, and that's pressuring them and knowing when to step in and when to hold back. 

 

Hero is working as intended, design-wise. Nitro is able to do her damage a little too frequently because of the low mana costs on her abilities, but generally speaking she is doing what she is designed to do. She just needed some time before players knew the best lane to play her. 

Edited by ElementUser
Link to post
Share on other sites

The threat of hook is huge pressure.

I don't know what you're on about. Once Devo misses hook he has literally 0 threat unless you're a melee and he can Decay you.

Also saying that hero X has a Y% win rate in mid, and loses to certain heroes is a good thing. No hero should auto win mid by virtue of just being selected.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Acnowlogia said:

Please read carefully my explanation above before attempting to comment to avoid something completely out of context.

I do not understand what you really mean by this. But I agree with your very last sentence. In this case the Nitro-picker went straight from Gold I to Legendary II with 31 wins, 6 losses on Nitro. Before that he had 50% winrate at Gold I rank, around 500 wins and 500 losses. Did he suddenly improve to such an extent that a Gold I player can easily beat a Legendary II game and beat an Immortal opponent 100% of the games whenever he picks Nitro? I simply find it hard to believe.

 

Quote

The threat of hook is not such a big pressure. If you had checked the replay you would have noticed that Nitro was always behind creeps so he's rather safe regardless of the threat of a hook.

That just means that the Nitro is positioning properly against Devourer. If Devo can't win the lane that is clearly meant to stomp him he should force the other lanes to be scared then. Perhaps the Devo should have just picked Succubus and crushed Nitro at every turn. I don't see how this isn't working as intended.

Also you fail to mention that Nitro is effectively a 'new' hero still, especially in higher brackets as people have only started to really use her. People are very adverse to change, higher level players are actually the worst for that. They find a strategy that works and usually fail to innovate until it fails way too much. This player hasn't innovated, has not adapted, and thus will die.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Acnowlogia said:

You still fail to see the point raised here. The point is what hero in this game can kill any strength hero in 3s after hitting casually a few times? Nitro could be playing against a lot of opponents, including Panda, Pebbles, Pestilence and even Salforis and kill them in a few hits just like he did with Devo. There are some heroes that can dominate the lane like Nitro did, i admit, but which one can dominate it with so little risk and leave so little room for action? Of course Succubus is a counter hero among the very few, does it mean a counter hero must be picked every single time someone pick Nitro in order to have a shot at winning the game? Let's use my very specific example to elaborate it into a broader sense of meta instead of focusing on strategic discussion.

 

Using your very specific example is purely anecdotal. I don't think Devo played well at all and continually ran into shrapnel. 

What's the difference between using your very specific example versus my specific example with Succubus stomping Nitro?

Nitro probably needs a little mana cost nerf on Q but that's really it honestly. Devo is a garbage hero for the most part, if he fails to hook he does nothing. If he Decays you you just trade shot for shot with him because he's taking equal damage early game before Cadaver becomes active, and you didn't waste a skill point on Decay. 

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...