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You are again stuck on a deserted island...  

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  1. 1. You are again stuck on a deserted island...

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When someone can tell me how Pebbles is OP when they're not getting hit by the immediate Q-W combo (which is easy to avoid if you simply just space properly, cause Pebbles has to be really close to you to do it) during the laning phase & before he gets a Portal Key, that's the time to consider a change.

 

Remember that it's the immediate Q-W combo that gives him his high burst damage. If you delay W at least 0.25s after Q impacts the target, it will nerf the damage output so much, which is why he's so dependent on a Portal Key or for an ally to set up for him for him to get within point-blank range to pull this off in the first place.

 

I'm really not buying the whole "Pebbles is OP" train.

Edited by ElementUser
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Grab Vestments, get some early stats, and stop buying Ghost Marchers because they give you 'dah-mage'.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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1 hour ago, ElementUser said:

When someone can tell me how Pebbles is OP when they're not getting hit by the immediate Q-W combo (which is easy to avoid if you simply just space properly, cause Pebbles has to be really close to you to do it) during the laning phase & before he gets a Portal Key, that's the time to consider a change.

 

Remember that it's the immediate Q-W combo that gives him his high burst damage. If you delay W at least 0.25s after Q impacts the target, it will nerf the damage output so much, which is why he's so dependent on a Portal Key or for an ally to set up for him for him to get within point-blank range to pull this off in the first place.

 

I'm really not buying the whole "Pebbles is OP" train.

Watch this stream about 4:30:00 in. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/744394370

We got Pebbles vs. Parallax lane. Parallax doesn't play badly - he harassed Pebbles to half health in two minutes (but note Pebbles had no regen items, so the idea that he's easily bullied from the lane is bogus). Then Solstice gets an invisibility rune and Parallax dies from almost full HP, in spite of being a hero with escape mechanisms, because Pebbles just does so much damage.

One could argue that Parallax played badly, after all he didn't have vision of Solstice or the rune. Fine. But now Parallax is losing the lane, so what do you do when you are losing the lane? You help your mid player, either by taking runes or ganking. Note Vindi attempts this, first by taking the rune, and then by ganking. Then watch Pebbles get a clean double kill 1v2 because he's just so tanky and his nuke cools down quickly.

Ok so both Parallax and Vindi played badly. What do you do now? Well you play safe and hope to recover, except you can't, because at level 6 Pebbles dives into the tower and kills Parallax again from full health, at long range, in front of a creep wave, and still has several hundred HP left. And then he does it again at level 7. So now it's clearly dire for Hellbourne and Deadwood comes to help too, except he gets dived in the tower as well and dies from full health (and without missing skills).

Then next you see Pebbles tank everything and before you know it he has 9 kills in 7 minutes. Name another hero that can do this. You'll have a hard time simply because no other hero can do so much damage without using ultimate. Maaaaybe Chipper can, but Chipper would not have survived the 2v1 gank. The game is more or less over at this point because Pebbles will constantly gank around the map, without having to wait for cooldowns, and nobody on the Hellbourne team can survive the combo.

Bear in mind as well that Parallax knows what he's doing. He has 82% win rate. That must be the reason he's soloing instead of Deadwood.

Tell me why you think Hellbourne lost. To my mind the only viable explanation is that Solstice got an invisibility rune at 2 minutes, which is just ridiculous, because it means the other four Hellbourne players made no relevant decisions and the game was over once Pebbles got the first kill.

Hero is busted, there's a reason why I ban him every game unless teammates say they want to pick him.

Edited by Sorais
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6 hours ago, Sorais said:

Pebbles is so overpowered I have no idea why he hasn't been nerfed yet, just watched this game where he had like 13 kills in 11 minutes. One could easily say "yeah anyone can snowball like that", except it's so difficult to imagine Deadwood, Succubus, Wretched Hag, etc getting 13 kills in 11 minutes because they're all ult dependent. Pebbles gets to snowball hard, is difficult to kill, can nuke creep waves to push/farm later in the game, etc, and he's somehow not overpowered. Yeah ...

I get what you imply there (might be wrong, lol) but I guess you should directly criticize rather than doing this because everyone seemed take this serious.

Edit: nevermind this post. Didn't update this discussion while writing this.

Edited by datfizh
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Pebbles played pretty well though, he had Power Supply & Bottle and capitalized on his snowball like he should + baited the enemy's greed and punished them for the failed gank. The gank with Vindicator (that doesn't have much gank viable CC compared to other supports) didn't succeed & Vindicator could've autoattacked twice more.

 

At higher level play, Pebbles would just be dual-midded against so he can't last-hit.

 

I don't really see much of an issue with the turn of events, it's just that he snowballed pretty hard & got lucky with a Haste Rune against Deadwood & had boots whereas Parallax didn't escape when Pebbles was in a threatening Q range.

 

What looks like more of an issue that is actually more debatable is the cooldown/mana cost of W, his own mana pool, and maybe his last-hitting power. I don't really see anything wrong with that specific game though. Pebbles was buffed in the past about 1 -2 years ago because the hero was out of touch with the power level at the time, so now it's possible to nerf his mana pool again to gate his spells once again, as that was the mechanic that was keeping him in check.

 

I can consider it in a future patch, but I'm still convinced the hero is overall more or less fine. The enemy's team comp didn't have enough reliable early burst/CC to deal with Pebbles, so :3

 

Pebbles was actually playing exactly as he should if he has a snowball lead like that. It's how the hero has always worked.

Edited by ElementUser
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34 minutes ago, Sorais said:

Watch this stream about 4:30:00 in. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/744394370

I watched the video and here are my comments:

- Pebbles starting item doesn't include any regen item, but he was able to get more xpm and gpm than the Parallax, proving that the Parallax was not efficient enough in harassing his opponent

- Parallax also miss alot of creeps to Pebbles deny, hence you can see that he's below Pebbles level

- There is a clear difference in damage between level 4 and level 5. A lvl 5 Pebbles killing a 2/3 hp lvl 4 Parallax is nothing unusual

Conclusion: The Parallax played significantly worse than Pebbles. It makes sense because Pebbles was an immortal 1 player at some point and Parallax is just a gold player, it is obvious that (from the video) there is a clear difference in skill between the two players. Therefore, the video isn't a good proof to show that Pebbles in an OP hero.

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8 hours ago, ElementUser said:

Pebbles played pretty well though, he had Power Supply & Bottle and capitalized on his snowball like he should + baited the enemy's greed and punished them for the failed gank. The gank with Vindicator (that doesn't have much gank viable CC compared to other supports) didn't succeed & Vindicator could've autoattacked twice more.

 

At higher level play, Pebbles would just be dual-midded against so he can't last-hit.

 

I don't really see much of an issue with the turn of events, it's just that he snowballed pretty hard & got lucky with a Haste Rune against Deadwood & had boots whereas Parallax didn't escape when Pebbles was in a threatening Q range.

 

What looks like more of an issue that is actually more debatable is the cooldown/mana cost of W, his own mana pool, and maybe his last-hitting power. I don't really see anything wrong with that specific game though. Pebbles was buffed in the past about 1 -2 years ago because the hero was out of touch with the power level at the time, so now it's possible to nerf his mana pool again to gate his spells once again, as that was the mechanic that was keeping him in check.

 

I can consider it in a future patch, but I'm still convinced the hero is overall more or less fine. The enemy's team comp didn't have enough reliable early burst/CC to deal with Pebbles, so :3

 

Pebbles was actually playing exactly as he should if he has a snowball lead like that. It's how the hero has always worked.

No you've not answered the points raised. Which other hero can do this? Seriously, answer it. Which other hero can score a kill at 2 minutes in with a Solstice gank, survive a 1v2 gank, dive towers and kill opponents at full HP, and do it again and again? I've already repeatedly said that Pebbles is the only hero who can do all this without using ultimate, which is a big deal. You simply cannot snowball like this with a hero like Succubus, Wretched Hag or Deadwood. You cannot dominate the 10-15 minute phase with a hero like Succubus, Wretched Hag or Deadwood. It's just plain not possible.

You can say "but you can dual lane against him", except 1) dual mid is extraordinarily rare even in high tier TMM, it only shows up in captain's pick, and 2) if you do get dualed against, the best hero to 1v2 with is a melee strength hero, which Pebbles is.

You can keep saying "I'm not convinced Pebbles isn't overpowered", but at this point I'm almost certain that nothing will convince you. If you don't agree with that, spell it out: what does it take to convince you that Pebbles is overpowered?

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I dont think Pebbles need nerf. This hero may be throw into trash tier with just a small touch. The power of pebbles is about how fastest he can get a PK. It's doesn't matter if he win or lose mid. If he cant get his Pk soon, he's not a danger threat
Counter Peb isn't hard also. If his combo do ~1000 magic damage. Then vestman and some little hp Boost will make pebbles more harder to play. We have soultrap, power supply, Energize and they are cheap

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16 hours ago, Sorais said:

No you've not answered the points raised. Which other hero can do this? Seriously, answer it. Which other hero can score a kill at 2 minutes in with a Solstice gank, survive a 1v2 gank, dive towers and kill opponents at full HP, and do it again and again? I've already repeatedly said that Pebbles is the only hero who can do all this without using ultimate, which is a big deal. You simply cannot snowball like this with a hero like Succubus, Wretched Hag or Deadwood. You cannot dominate the 10-15 minute phase with a hero like Succubus, Wretched Hag or Deadwood. It's just plain not possible.

Plenty of heroes who can do that if given the same advantage of xpm/gpm Pebbles had. A classic example is Adrenalin. Succubus is a very strong mid lane hero, if you put a Succubus against a Pebbles mid, given both players are equally skilled, then the Succubus will have more advantage because of her high attack damage + life steal. In many cases Succubus can completely dominates said Pebbles without ganks.

I think you are mistakenly think that Pebbles has higher early damage output than other middle heroes in the game which makes him OP, which is true to some extend. But in fact it was the difference in damaging mechanism that gets you confused. Pebbles indeed has strong short-burst damage, and it is quite strong at level 5, enough to kill an intelligence hero at 2/3 hp, but as ElementUser said, he needs to get really close. Meanwhile heroes like Parallax or Succubus has different damaging mechanism, which is more frequent, weaker burst of damage in the form of fast cooldown spells and attacks. Due to the difference in mechanism, it takes a slightly different strategy for each hero to dominate his opponent. In the end it all comes down to the fact that you could set up a situation where you have enough damage to make your opponent HP drop to 0 within only a few seconds. The Vindi + Parallax gank wasn't successful because they failed to set this up.

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Here's my thoughts on some changes I'd like to see post-4.86. Sorry if it is very disconnected from the current conversation, I just didn't know where to post it where it would last. 

 

Gladiator:

Problems- Glad is a bit too strong right now.  I don't mind heroes dealing big damage if they have to work for it, but currently Glad's damage output is just so free., which makes him so strong mid lane (or any lane really).

It mostly stems from Showdown: it has a very low mana cost and has essentially no counter-play early to mid game for most heroes. As long as Gladiator can count to 2, he can pitfall and/or combo. And as long as you're within 400 range, you can be Showdowned, and grounded into place for essentially 4 seconds. Once you do level it up, it is essentially a death sentence in team fights or ganks unless the enemy has a storm spirit or shrunken head. It just does too much in my opinion for a measly 60 mana. 

I also think the whip is a tad too strong when it comes too frequency. It's easiness to hit your opponent paired with frequency make Glad's life too easy to push your opponent out of lane or just get an easy kill. 

In the end, my main point I want to get through is that a hero with such high damage output and killing potential should not be easy to play. And if the hero is easy to play, the numbers should be toned down. Glad is a very easy hero.

Solutions- all suggestions are all meant to be distinct of each other

  • Revert Showdown progression to 1/2/3/4 seconds 
  • Increase mana cost of Showdown
  • Increase CD of Whip
  • Tighten range of Whip
  • Half the added damage from the Whip when denying
  • Increase CD of Ulti (60s for a 600 damage AoE nuke and 50% damage reduction is a little much )

 

Moira:

Problems- I mostly take issue with Arcane Vortex. It's an absurdly strong AoE CC that can't be stopped and is among the same levels of impact as chronos and sapphire, but it has about half the cooldown and costs only 275 mana. I also don't like how you can't punish a deeply and dangerously placed Forge copy before it finishes spawning. Moira can already summon it from 5000 away, she should have to place it at least smartly.

Solutions-

  • Increase CD of Vortex
  • Increase mana cost of Vortex
  • Allow for the Copy to be killed before it is ready for use
  • Lower max radius of the vortex

 

Hammer:

Problems- Hammer's main issue right now is the splash radius on his cleave. The radial cleave is a good idea, but the 450 radius is a little under an andromeda auto attack away. He's already a very strong hero that's easy to play, so can we just dumb down the numbers a little?

Solutions-

  • Lower the damage on the Might Swing cleave
  • Lower radius of Mighty Swing
  • Lower damage of Mighty Swing the further away the enemy is from the center, be it linearly, exponentially, or some other formula
  • Increase the mana cost of Galvanize a little

 

Xemplar:

Problems- Xemplars greatest enemy in the game is Arcane Bomb. I get that it was made specifically for him and Sand Wraith, but I think for Xemplar, it's just too effective for 1700 gold and change. I feel like I've had fights where I used ulti, Q and W'd, then by the time I reached my target my illusions were all gone.

Solutions-

  • Give Illusions that he spawns a temporary 2-5 second anti-magic barrier that helps deal with soaking up damage so he can get at least one Q off. The shield could be a flat number, or it could block X instances of direct magic damage.

 

Poly:

Problems- Poly's Electric Jolt has been too free for a while. It's a simple point and click harass tool that only requires sight to hit very far targets. Compared to other mid heroes that have these far reaching nukes like Pyro, Defiler, Bubbles, or Ellonia, Poly doesn't really have any counterplay. If you are standing (I think) within 500 of an archer and he has sight of you, you are getting hit. 

Solutions-

  • Change Jolt back to purely a cone
  • Lower the damage of Jolt
  • Increase the mana cost of Jolt

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Pebbles nerf when??

I'm so sick of this hero escaping the ban phase. He's good with items, still OK without items. Last hits like a madman, can AoE farm even if he's shut down early. If he dies after he PKs that's fine, if he doesn't die after he PKs he remains a big threat even if he escapes with 100 HP. He's tanky as hell, impossible to trade hits with and doesn't need setup to land his burst. If he gets even the slightest bit early PK he will one-shot half the heroes on the other team, after which even if he dies it's OK because the other team must commit a lot of damage to actually kill him and his teammates can punish them for it. Even if he can't one-shot his target he can keep the target stunned for like 4+ seconds, during which he gets to autoattack at least twice with 200+ damage autos, which means he can do a ton of damage even to Strength heroes, not to mention set up for teammates like Valkyrie and Nymphora. He's good in normal mode and good in casual mode. There's nothing not overpowered about him and yet somehow he keeps not getting nerfed. Wtf?

This hero (and DR) ruin TMM likes no other. Please check his win rates in the higher brackets because at this point if he's not banned, he's getting picked.

Edited by Sorais
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What would you Nerf about him without completely doing his thing? Numbers?

Honestly I feel like people are undervaluing Steams (yet again) as well as early stat items such as Power Supply and such. He's definitely strong but it's not like HP Damage is uncounterable.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Next patch for Pebbles, reduction in Base Int & a small cooldown increase on W (maybe Q) is all I'm doing.

You have to remember that Pebbles was buffed to keep up with HoN's inflated power level, when the power level started getting high from like 2016. Pebbles got buffed in January 2019 to keep up, but by late 2019/mid 2020, I've adjusted the game's power level so that it has fallen & Pebbles may just be a bit too good relative to that.

 

His damage output is fine, so long as its availability/frequency is limited properly. Bringing back his weaknesses from before just a bit is the way to go. Though for the record, most in NAEU disagree with Sorais' opinion about Pebbles.

Edited by ElementUser
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I would rather see the cooldown on Toss increased considering its one of the most powerful skills in the game. His mana issues are easily solvable but he used to have to invest into a couple of Int Items to combo consistently, so I think by giving him a little more upkeep you can slow him down without entirely crippling him.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Why pebbles got nerf? The hero fine just now and not overpowered too. I dont understand now the game only update for nerf and reworks? If u want nerf peb give the balance too on his damage skill. 

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1 minute ago, Nbidjr said:

Why pebbles got nerf? The hero fine just now and not overpowered too. I dont understand now the game only update for nerf and reworks? If u want nerf peb give the balance too on his damage skill. 

@NbidjrYou should speak with @Sorais about that (or just read all his posts about Pebbles). I'm sure he's happy to enlighten you & rant about it further ? 

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On 6/23/2020 at 3:13 AM, ElementUser said:

The main argument for the state to not be hidden (the actual state, or just the VFX) is because of the CD altering property affecting a veteran player's ability to gauge when a hero's ability cycle starts again. If that effect isn't visible, veteran players will be caught off guard by a stun/escape being available 4s later, and it could cost them a hero kill (or more).

 The VFX of runes should not be hidden, not good for the game. Runes are for everyone and its a neutral object its not like a skill or anything other than a perk. 

On 6/28/2020 at 3:09 AM, ElementUser said:

Unfortunately not =( we don't have a pip system for the shield bar & we can't dynamically represent the scaling of mana. We can only do shield bars for shields with static max health values like Moraxus.

 

It's more an issue with how drastic Electrician's shield can scale more than anything else.

Suggestion,

Rather than using the electric shield everytime it deactivates, why not make toggleable. This will make elect farm more easy, depends on manapool, and we can see the depletion of mana during damage.

 

Item Suggestion,

Brutalizer

New Components:

Slayer
Bolstering Armband
Fortified Bracer
Recipe

New Item Effects:

When off cooldown, stuns enemy for 1 seconds and deals damage.
Reduce the cooldown by 0.5 seconds for melee and 0.25 for range during cooldown for each successful attack.

Melee Cooldown: 4 seconds
Range Cooldown: 7 seconds


- Range user doesnt buy this item because the 10% bash is totally not worth the gold and will buy other effective items instead. The item is greatly bias on melee heroes with fast attack speed rate but not on the opposite.

-this will work things out and balance the item and make the it more effective than before without compormising its value and effectiveness.


 

Savage Mace
 

New effects:

No longer a grants true strike
Instantly deals 140 damage and a 0.15 second stun every time the attack miss upon hit.

Instantly stuns to channeling heroes

 

-the item is a sure counter to wingbow and make it useless.
- The primary reason why players buy wingbow is because of the sweet evasion only to be countered by mace in the end.
- a guarantee stun to channeling heroes will do a reversal in a small skirmish to a heavy teamfight making the item more valuable than before


________

I have so many rough suggestion, listing from a to z, 0-9, to present and make the game more enjoyable than before. But I will show them 1by1 for now.

Edited by DesoZaKiddo
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I think it's because of the shield's dps. If it's a toggle it'd be free damage. I wish there is a another toggle button though, put it at D, that automatically reuse shield when depleted.

In fact, make it happen, then you can nerf his Q all you want.

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I come from HoN SEA .
I want an Engineer that can plant six bombs in one place, the old way, because now the bombs kill no one. Just because he has a magic vest, 500Gold has survived. Please change it back to the old one.
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I come from HoN SEA .

I want an Engineer that can plant six bombs in one place, the old way, because now the bombs kill no one. Just because he has a magic vest, 500Gold has survived. Please change it back to the old one.

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@ElementUser

Revert Nitro back to previous patch please.

The reworked version of Nitro is more of a buff to the previously overpowered Nitro rather than a nerf. Take a look at this match in NAEU Client - 160006939.

At level 7 (00:12:23), Nitro and Devourer were both having similar XPM and GPM. Nitro has 2 Duckboots and 1 Punch dagger as damage items, his attack damage is 79-86. Devourer has 1 Iron Buckler + 1 minor totem, his armor is 2.6, hp is 986. Every time Nitro hits Devo, his hp drops around 100. After landing 4 attacks on Devo, his hp is at 586, he leveled up and had 620 hp. Nitro used ulti + his Q, Devo died in 3 seconds without being able to do anything.

Please explain to me if this is an intended way for Nitro to be played? I do not see any other hero being able to kill Devourer after casually hitting him 4 times, including hard counter heroes for Devo such as Drunken Master, Arachna, Slither. The only hero that can kill Devo as easy and with almost no risk as that is Engineer, but it requires prior strategic planning (e.g. placing several mines).

One might argue that Devourer's armor is too low. But imagine the majority of mid lane heroes including many intelligence and strength heroes. Unless a very small number of heroes that has an escape mechanism (Hag - blink, Flux - push, Apex - dash), any other hero with around 700hp left is guaranteed dead from 1 combo like that (Devo died with 620 hp in 3 seconds, so Nitro has 2 seconds more with ultimate). How many heroes that can take on a few hits without dropping his hp below 700? I only see a few strength heroes who could do that. But strength heroes are usually melee, so they are riskier when it comes to lane control and one small mistake could cause him to lose GPM balance. Even if the hero manages to survive until this point (like I did with Devo), things change once Nitro gets Ghost Marchers, and even worse when he gets Madfred's Knuckles. No argument needed for an intelligence hero, they might be able to clear waves but easily get rolled over once caught.

At 00:16:12, Devo had 1176 hp and 3.5 armor, Nitro had 119-126 damage. Nitro used ulti out of invisible and hit Devo 5 times. Devo hp dropped to 566 (-610), that happened in 2.5 seconds, so technically if Nitro could land his full ultimate duration, Devo is dead from a single ultimate. Again, slightly larger GPM and XPM for Nitro but not that much.

What hero can do this to Devo?

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7 hours ago, Acnowlogia said:

@ElementUser

Revert Nitro back to previous patch please.

The reworked version of Nitro is more of a buff to the previously overpowered Nitro rather than a nerf. Take a look at this match in NAEU Client - 160006939.

At level 7 (00:12:23), Nitro and Devourer were both having similar XPM and GPM. Nitro has 2 Duckboots and 1 Punch dagger as damage items, his attack damage is 79-86. Devourer has 1 Iron Buckler + 1 minor totem, his armor is 2.6, hp is 986. Every time Nitro hits Devo, his hp drops around 100. After landing 4 attacks on Devo, his hp is at 586, he leveled up and had 620 hp. Nitro used ulti + his Q, Devo died in 3 seconds without being able to do anything.

Please explain to me if this is an intended way for Nitro to be played? I do not see any other hero being able to kill Devourer after casually hitting him 4 times, including hard counter heroes for Devo such as Drunken Master, Arachna, Slither. The only hero that can kill Devo as easy and with almost no risk as that is Engineer, but it requires prior strategic planning (e.g. placing several mines).

One might argue that Devourer's armor is too low. But imagine the majority of mid lane heroes including many intelligence and strength heroes. Unless a very small number of heroes that has an escape mechanism (Hag - blink, Flux - push, Apex - dash), any other hero with around 700hp left is guaranteed dead from 1 combo like that (Devo died with 620 hp in 3 seconds, so Nitro has 2 seconds more with ultimate). How many heroes that can take on a few hits without dropping his hp below 700? I only see a few strength heroes who could do that. But strength heroes are usually melee, so they are riskier when it comes to lane control and one small mistake could cause him to lose GPM balance. Even if the hero manages to survive until this point (like I did with Devo), things change once Nitro gets Ghost Marchers, and even worse when he gets Madfred's Knuckles. No argument needed for an intelligence hero, they might be able to clear waves but easily get rolled over once caught.

At 00:16:12, Devo had 1176 hp and 3.5 armor, Nitro had 119-126 damage. Nitro used ulti out of invisible and hit Devo 5 times. Devo hp dropped to 566 (-610), that happened in 2.5 seconds, so technically if Nitro could land his full ultimate duration, Devo is dead from a single ultimate. Again, slightly larger GPM and XPM for Nitro but not that much.

What hero can do this to Devo?

@w3_StarBoy what do you think about this statement? I believe you advocated how weak Nitro compared to other carries.

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9 hours ago, ElementUser said:

Do you know how Ballistic works?

 

Read it, then think about how you're not supposed to take the damage from it.

Yes, I just understood it from watching the replay yesterday. The solution to avoiding Ballistic is to do anything but moving further from the target, which means you are not getting out of his attack range. So one is forced to either suffer from unlimited attacks till death, or move in and intercept the hero until either one go down if he doesn't want to get out of Nitro attack range. Hence, the best option for most is just to take the damage and get out of his attack range for a refresh.

Now as I have answered your question, would you be so kind as to give a proper answer to mine?

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