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  1. 1. You are again stuck on a deserted island...

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Is it intended for Nitro Ult to be able to hit Fayde during Shadow Walk if she was targeted before Shadowwalking?

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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The same poll.... Oh dear.   Oh yeah, the regular Balance/Design subforum rules don't apply in this thread (but the global forum rules still do). You can chat about almost anything you want

I'd love to. I think the main frustration factor with Adrenaline was mitigated when the change to his Q cooldown occurred. He is no longer able to create large one-sided fights with a 3>2.25&g

Let's rock and roll with Adrenaline. I've suffered enough testing that previous design, time to reap the rewards. Just so it isn't lost on Discord, can we please let Adrenaline cast his W outside

On 7/28/2020 at 4:31 PM, Bersk said:

so it kinda worries me that I might end up playing against draconis and sols every game for that long

->i dont think Draconis benefits from the jungle changes. Strong aspect of the hero was taking triple stack of ancients pretty early. So in my mind he is out of the equation.
Regarding Solstice i have already stated in the past that i cant agree with the general kit the hero has( all around abilities , stun, fear, lifesteal, invisible,slow, mov.speed buff/ attack speed buff ) + the fact he is a jungler. Lots of people argue that he aint so strong, statement i can agree with also,coz obv its actually situational how effective he can be.
Some factors behind his effectiveness  are  for example: who is the  player playing ( like Dutch destroying a game earlier at legendary), or what rank he is being played. But i do believe he will be overplayed. I can agree with you on that(not that he wasnt already;number 1 used champion) .

I still find the hero kinda absurd atm though.  I have already tasted in 2 games how fast he can jungle now, and its kinda weird, seeing a strength hero, with no strength items do so much. And still this opinion i have is due to his multi factional kit. This is what offers him the ability to ``excel`` .
For sure,I dont want a rework on the hero, i love complex heroes, with lots of buttons.But number twists  could be, okeish?... On an opposite argument though this might make the hero useless, so i cant really tell; in the end i guess im fine as he is. Jungle/carry heroes arent a lot tbh, and its good he provides diversity in the hero pool. Thats my point of view anyhow for both of them.

->On the jungle changes, at first glance i didnt like them. But i did stated that if the trade of the pull camp was the revival of jungle, i would take it 10 out of 10 times. and it kinda seems like the case. Game became too monotonous with the 2-1-2 strats. Its good for the overal CoL of the game to have more gamestyles. Its nice seeing again suicide heroes, and junglers. What is better is seeing a Tempest in the game, and actually having a protagonist role, rather than a struggling one ?‍?. Just love it ❤️ .

Some twists that maybe good to happen in the next patch, eventually will come forth. Every patch needs time. And this patch seems promising, we will see ? .

 

edit: im interested to see the Salomon /jungle viability ?  

Edited by doctornik
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  • 2 weeks later...

I have two thoughts about some balance effects.
1. Do you guys consider that Behe's SOTM should stay with the current CD? It's still good, but I consider that having the jump sub-ability cooldown is a better power scale for a SOTM upgrade. Is the mobility in such a low CD the main reason? Is it more specific, like giving him an annoying escape? Could giving the sub-ability a 3-sec CD on damage be a viable exchange?
2. Do you consider the previous buff to Pred (giving the restrain effect) is a good direction of balance? Up until now, I still feel that it got rid of one of the natural weaknesses of Predator, which involved being kited if without a team. Because of the change, the amount of heroes that could give him issues was heavily reduced (specially in a suicide vs safe lane scenario), his powerspike became bigger and he became another hero that could buy a farming item and then go nuts (since he already had magic immunity, an iconic strength of him). Because of this, Stone Hide got nerfed, which I feel might become a starting point of other nerfs that could lead him to become less unique (restrain being an iconic strong point of Berzerker)

Related to the two points, I do believe that Restrain is an effect needed in HoN because of the amount of blink and pseudo-blink abilities, but having it in more carry heroes as part of their kit takes away it’s uniqueness and the pros and cons when picking a suitable hero for that role. I think having the effect in new item could be and interesting trade-off if it is a dead-end one though, as it will still allow the heavy hitters to get rid of their weakness at the cost of an item slot.

Edited by Bersk
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3 hours ago, Bersk said:

Do you consider the previous buff to Pred (giving the restrain effect) is a good direction of balance? Up until now, I still feel that it got rid of one of the natural weaknesses of Predator, which involved being kited if without a team. Because of the change, the amount of heroes that could give him issues was heavily reduced (specially in a suicide vs safe lane scenario), his powerspike became bigger and he became another hero that could buy a farming item and then go nuts (since he already had magic immunity, an iconic strength of him). Because of this, Stone Hide got nerfed, which I feel might become a starting point of other nerfs that could lead him to become less unique (restrain being an iconic strong point of Berzerker)

Related to the two points, I do believe that Restrain is an effect needed in HoN because of the amount of blink and pseudo-blink abilities, but having it in more carry heroes as part of their kit takes away it’s uniqueness and the pros and cons when picking a suitable hero for that role. I think having the effect in new item could be and interesting trade-off if it is a dead-end one though, as it will still allow the heavy hitters to get rid of their weakness at the cost of an item slot.

really well said, i agree with your thoughts and worries. and the arguments you brought on the table. 

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Talking about Codex, I also have suggestion as written below:

Spoiler

Option 1:

Deals 200/275/350/425/500 magic damage then combusts up to 200/275/350/425/500 mana, dealing 100% mana combusted as non-lethal magic damage.

Thought Process: from this suggestion, Codex will have a utility while retaining its burst potential. No lethal damage to mana combustion is also suggested as  a drawback to such utility.

Option 2:

  • No longer has upgrade.
  • Grants a charge from kill or assist on enemy hero for up to 20 charges can be accumulated, increasing magic damage by 25 per charge.
  • The charge also reduces cooldown by 4 seconds and mana cost by 25, capped to 24 seconds cooldown and 80 Mana Cost.

Thought Process: Codex is no longer an item with ridiculous price for such mediocre impact.

 

Edited by datfizh
Rewrite Codex

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  • 3 weeks later...

While you have certain heroes that do really well with specific items, there are heroes that don't. So how can you balance this out? Try to remove the heroes and keep the items, or try to remove the items and keep the heroes?

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How would people feel about getting +1 to all ability levels upon hitting level 25? Right now after 14 there's little to no ability progression and you just get XP as a side-effect of farming gold but there is no goal to getting levels anymore aside from stat growth. Or maybe a reward like the kongor rewards (choose between 50 movespeed, 15% damage output, or +20 to all stats). Maybe automatic SotM boost? (only if everyone has a staff of course). Lot's of possibilities.

It's just an idea, and it doesn't have to be any of these, but I do feel like it could make the game more interesting if there was a significant reward upon reaching max level. In doto when you hit level cap you unlock all talents and it's massive, and I know talents aren't happening in HoN, but it does give you this goal to work toward.

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Righteous Strike Adjustment Suggestion

  • Increases cooldown from 8 seconds to 9 seconds.
  • For every allied hero alive, reducing the set cooldown of this ability by 0.25/0.5/0.75/1 second (Sets cooldown to 8/7/6/5 seconds if all allies are alive).

Thought process: a buff to Jeraziah carry potential by encouraging his role as support.

Edited by datfizh
Thought?

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4 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

Weird Passive, bring confuse and wrong calculator

Think of this cooldown as using Logger's Hatchet. If you use Hatchet on non-unit (tree, ward, gadget), the cooldown is set to be shorter than using it on unit. So, if you have all allied heroes alive, the cooldown will be set as I wrote when it goes on cooldown.

Raw Calculation:

Alive allied hero(es) - 4/3/2/1/0

Level 1 - 8/8.25/8.5/8.75/9 seconds

Level 2 - 7/7.5/8/8.5/9 seconds

Level 3 - 6/6.75/7.5/8.25/9 seconds

Level 4 - 5/6/7/8/9 seconds

 

3 hours ago, Bersk said:

Maybe make the cooldown reduction faster if there are ally heroes around X radius?

Well, that also works to me.

In the end, my thought process on this suggestion because Jeraziah player on some player level tend to make himself a pure carry. So, this suggestion is intended to direct Jeraziah player to also use Jeraziah as support hero by reward than nerf.

Edited by datfizh
Raw Calculation

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Why you want the skill that deal % bonus damage as true damage to have short cooldown to increase the potential of support? You just make people build jera as a busted carry.

Also it's confuse because the skill cd always change but you cant do anything about it.

HoN SEA Player

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On 9/5/2020 at 1:31 AM, w3_StarBoy said:

Why you want the skill that deal % bonus damage as true damage to have short cooldown to increase the potential of support? You just make people build jera as a busted carry.

Good point to make me realize that I misused the term of support and carry on this discussion so I have to rephrase the thought process of this suggestion, it's to make Jeraziah player considering his allies safety to get the benefit by utilizing his abilities. So, yes he'll be a busted carry from this suggestion.

On 9/5/2020 at 1:31 AM, w3_StarBoy said:

Also it's confuse because the skill cd always change but you cant do anything about it.

Not really always change, it depends on the teammates and I suppose the player could play around the mechanic.

Proposed Mechanic Sequence:

Righteous Strike off cooldown >> Hits enemy >> Calculating number of allied heroes alive >> Sets the cooldown >> Goes on cooldown with the set number >> Repeat.

Edit:

New Suggestion to Cthulhuphant

Spoiler

1. Merge Maddening Revenge to Dream of Madness: passively deal physical damage to dealer equals to 40/80/120% of Cthulhuphant's strength whenever he takes physical damage from the damage dealer. Dream of Madness active works as it does currently.

2. New passive replacing Maddening Revenge, Hook 'em: Passively non-hero unit in 200 radius to Cthulhuphant takes 20% more damage from him. Also passively every unit dies in 200 radius to Cthulhuphant grants him a shield equals to 0/20/20/20% of dying unit max health, at a maximum 0/150/300/450 shield can be acquired. The shield absorbs 50% of pre-mitigation damage taken from Cthulhuphant's front down to 0% at 100 degree from the front.

Thought process:

  • Maddening Revenge seems likely to be less picked on early game so merging it with Dream of Madness not gonna change much but buff early game Dream of Madness.
  • Hook 'em as a reminiscence of old Cthulhuphant ability is proposed to fill Maddening Revenge proposed merging and it still fits his current abilities.
  • To make his early phase at staying on lane not buffed too much, Hook 'em is proposed to be two-point wonder ability so Cthulhuphant needs to sacrifice two of his levels to get shield benefit.

 

Edited by datfizh
Cthulhuphant suggestion to refresh discussion.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/10/2020 at 4:35 PM, Acnowlogia said:

Overpowered heroes:
1. Draconis - too fast gold and exp accumulation speed. 500 gpm and level 8 while solo-laners can get at most level 6 and 450 gpm from the lane creeps? What is the point in going solo-lane if you can easily snowball by farming in woods? Also high dps damage output, high mobility, good crowd control...

That's pretty normal to me if a jungler manages to have faster gold and exp accumulation than solo-laner (I suppose this solo-laner is mid-laner because sui less likely affords to get that gpm against dual lane/ tri lane). I agree on his high mobility, making him what he is.

On 9/10/2020 at 4:35 PM, Acnowlogia said:

2. Engineer - has been overperforming in both supporting and ganking roles due to much higher damage output than an average nuker (e.g: pyromancer, bombardier, ellonia) with less reliance on cooldown, also has a stun, a silence (or two), and a slow spell, which means significantly less risk of death.

I guess roughly Engineer damage output is pretty much same as nuker you've mentioned. Though, I admit he's more versatile than average nuker you've mentioned.

On 9/10/2020 at 4:35 PM, Acnowlogia said:

3. Oogie - need to lower farming capacity, Oogie is an early-mid combat hero with carry potential, he is farming too fast with spell damage, usually need well-organized gank from multiple opponents to deal with lesser chance of success than to an average carry, easily snowballing.

Oogie from my perspective is similar to Soul Reaper but less versatile. Give your opinion to my statement.

On 9/10/2020 at 4:35 PM, Acnowlogia said:

4. Salomon - too fast gold accumulation speed, usually need well-organized gank from multiple opponents to deal with lesser chance of success than to an average carry, easily snowballing.

I don't know why Salomon has lesser chance to be successfully ganked when he has no escape and no cc ability.

On 9/10/2020 at 4:35 PM, Acnowlogia said:

5. Calamity - too long agility stealing duration.

That long duration makes the ability worth to be leveled up.

On 9/10/2020 at 4:35 PM, Acnowlogia said:

The imbalanced power of strength heroes with crowd control and farming power have shifted the HoN meta greatly comparing to the diverse strategy of the old days. Do you often see agility carry picks such as tdl, silhouette or magebane in tournament games anymore? Or are they replaced with oogie, maliken, hammerstorm, zephyr...? How about the often mid-laner pick-up of wretched hag, bubbles, blood hunter, dampeer?

Partially agree on your statement. I disagree on imbalanced power of strength heroes statement but I agree on crowd control and farming tool what makes carry heroes picked.

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On 9/10/2020 at 11:35 AM, Acnowlogia said:

Overpowered heroes:
1. Draconis - too fast gold and exp accumulation speed. 500 gpm and level 8 while solo-laners can get at most level 6 and 450 gpm from the lane creeps? What is the point in going solo-lane if you can easily snowball by farming in woods? Also high dps damage output, high mobility, good crowd control...

2. Engineer - has been overperforming in both supporting and ganking roles due to much higher damage output than an average nuker (e.g: pyromancer, bombardier, ellonia) with less reliance on cooldown, also has a stun, a silence (or two), and a slow spell, which means significantly less risk of death.

3. Oogie - need to lower farming capacity, Oogie is an early-mid combat hero with carry potential, he is farming too fast with spell damage, usually need well-organized gank from multiple opponents to deal with with lesser chance of success than to an average carry, easily snowballing

4. Salomon - too fast gold accumulation speed, usually need well-organized gank from multiple opponents to deal with with lesser chance of success than to an average carry, easily snowballing

5. Calamity - too long agility stealing duration

 

The imbalanced power of strength heroes with crowd control and farming power have shifted the HoN meta greatly comparing to the diverse strategy of the old days. Do you often see agility carry picks such as tdl, silhouette or magebane in tournament games anymore? Or are they replaced with oogie, maliken, hammerstorm, zephyr...? How about the often mid-laner pick-up of wretched hag, bubbles, blood hunter, dampeer?

 

I agree with every part, just add Doctor repulsor and Gunblade to the heroes that might deserve a litttle nerf ?

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First of all, thank you for replying my short comment about your statement.

On 9/15/2020 at 6:43 PM, Acnowlogia said:

First of all thank you for your elaboration on this discussion.

In what kind of meta do you see jungler to have significantly higher gold and exp accumulation than solo laner? If it was the case, meta would revolve around competing for jungle instead of in lane. In the past 10 years I have rarely seen a jungler hero that could achieve 500 gpm at level 6 and use that as a key to snowball his opponents. Even Salomon and Wildsoul were the fastest junglers in the game at some point could not achieve that gpm, and they were heroes with much less snowballing capability, higher risk of expose due to itemization, and less mobility, in contradiction to Draconis. Most importantly, they weren't able to get significantly higher gpm than a solo-laner during the early phase of the game (e.g. before level 6 to 8). And if you take a look at parasite, tempest or ophelia, their cap gpm from woods in the early phase is below 400, and they get more or less the same xpm as solo midlaner.

I bet you would change your mind if you see a level 11 draconis purely from farming woods when other 9 players highest level is 8.

What's on your mind about the reason of Draconis to have such high gold and exp on jungle?

Also, what do you think about Solstice and Legionnaire jungle? They're quite fast IMO because of their kit could kill many creeps at once.

On 9/15/2020 at 6:43 PM, Acnowlogia said:

If you compare the damage of engineer with, for example, pyromancer. He has about the same damage output within an instance. What gives him even more damage is the fact that he has significantly lower spell cooldown (from mines and ultimate), and can make up for the gap in cooldown with stacks of mines. He has also more debuff, so his laning presence doesn't get much weaker without his ulti, whereas a hero that relies on ultimate like pyromancer get significantly weaker laning presence (people aren't afraid of pyromancer without his ulti, there are million ways to roll over him). Comparing to other nukers, he just beats everyone because he has 3 debuff spells, like a vindicator but with more damage. He's, as you said, a too versatile hero, which needs a nerf either in (early) damage or in crowd control.

Though, Engineer's potential damage and cc could be lessened by attacking his gadget.

On 9/15/2020 at 6:43 PM, Acnowlogia said:

You're wrong on the versatility thing. If you take a look at 'high' tmm games nowadays, picking Oogie guarantees almost 80% of winning a match. He farms much faster than Soul Reaper, has higher speed, significantly higher damage output, higher healing capability, higher dps... so in every senses he exceeds Soul Reaper. Given free farm stage, he can easily initiate a combat, killing 3-4 heroes by himself or with limited help from some of his team members, tank every thing and came out alive. Only possibility to stop him is to stagnant his early game. But he is quite a strong hero in a 2v2 situation as well so stopping him isn't as easy as stopping a hard carry like maliken, magebane or tdl.

My bad, the versatility I meant is in term of flexibility from carry to support and vice versa. Indeed, Oogie is overall a better carry than Soul Reaper.

On 9/15/2020 at 6:43 PM, Acnowlogia said:

Because of his ultimate and snowballing capacity. With the right itemization on Salomon you will need to have at least 3 team members to be able to gank him, otherwise the damage output limited by level and item are the things that will fail your attempt because he regen faster than you can damage him. If he was free farming for 15 minutes then you need more than 3 team members for sure. Although it is a counterable hero, not as overpowered as draconis, but without specific heroes such as Salforis, it is much more challenging to gank a Salomon than a normal agility carry.

I believe spellsunder is still a thing to counter Salomon's ultimate. Also, I don't think agility carries with escape mechanism or tanking skill need less than 3 team members to successfully gank them.

On 9/15/2020 at 6:43 PM, Acnowlogia said:

True, it is much more worth to be leveled up than other of his nuking spells ?

Well, I think it's still better that way because it opens up different skill leveling on different occasion rather than level Q then W pattern.

On 9/15/2020 at 6:43 PM, Acnowlogia said:

Still, it is noticeable that agility heroes have fallen short on higher games. People pick agility carries much less often than they would pick a strength carry nowadays, based from what I observe in the legendary and above rank games. They do pick agility heroes sometimes but prefer those with tanking mechanism such as Corrupted Disciple, Arachna, Gunblade.

Agree on your statement. So, which agility carries on your mind do need a treatment to compete other meta carries?

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Pebbles is so overpowered I have no idea why he hasn't been nerfed yet, just watched this game where he had like 13 kills in 11 minutes. One could easily say "yeah anyone can snowball like that", except it's so difficult to imagine Deadwood, Succubus, Wretched Hag, etc getting 13 kills in 11 minutes because they're all ult dependent. Pebbles gets to snowball hard, is difficult to kill, can nuke creep waves to push/farm later in the game, etc, and he's somehow not overpowered. Yeah ...

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When someone can tell me how Pebbles is OP when they're not getting hit by the immediate Q-W combo (which is easy to avoid if you simply just space properly, cause Pebbles has to be really close to you to do it) during the laning phase & before he gets a Portal Key, that's the time to consider a change.

 

Remember that it's the immediate Q-W combo that gives him his high burst damage. If you delay W at least 0.25s after Q impacts the target, it will nerf the damage output so much, which is why he's so dependent on a Portal Key or for an ally to set up for him for him to get within point-blank range to pull this off in the first place.

 

I'm really not buying the whole "Pebbles is OP" train.

Edited by ElementUser
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Grab Vestments, get some early stats, and stop buying Ghost Marchers because they give you 'dah-mage'.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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1 hour ago, ElementUser said:

When someone can tell me how Pebbles is OP when they're not getting hit by the immediate Q-W combo (which is easy to avoid if you simply just space properly, cause Pebbles has to be really close to you to do it) during the laning phase & before he gets a Portal Key, that's the time to consider a change.

 

Remember that it's the immediate Q-W combo that gives him his high burst damage. If you delay W at least 0.25s after Q impacts the target, it will nerf the damage output so much, which is why he's so dependent on a Portal Key or for an ally to set up for him for him to get within point-blank range to pull this off in the first place.

 

I'm really not buying the whole "Pebbles is OP" train.

Watch this stream about 4:30:00 in. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/744394370

We got Pebbles vs. Parallax lane. Parallax doesn't play badly - he harassed Pebbles to half health in two minutes (but note Pebbles had no regen items, so the idea that he's easily bullied from the lane is bogus). Then Solstice gets an invisibility rune and Parallax dies from almost full HP, in spite of being a hero with escape mechanisms, because Pebbles just does so much damage.

One could argue that Parallax played badly, after all he didn't have vision of Solstice or the rune. Fine. But now Parallax is losing the lane, so what do you do when you are losing the lane? You help your mid player, either by taking runes or ganking. Note Vindi attempts this, first by taking the rune, and then by ganking. Then watch Pebbles get a clean double kill 1v2 because he's just so tanky and his nuke cools down quickly.

Ok so both Parallax and Vindi played badly. What do you do now? Well you play safe and hope to recover, except you can't, because at level 6 Pebbles dives into the tower and kills Parallax again from full health, at long range, in front of a creep wave, and still has several hundred HP left. And then he does it again at level 7. So now it's clearly dire for Hellbourne and Deadwood comes to help too, except he gets dived in the tower as well and dies from full health (and without missing skills).

Then next you see Pebbles tank everything and before you know it he has 9 kills in 7 minutes. Name another hero that can do this. You'll have a hard time simply because no other hero can do so much damage without using ultimate. Maaaaybe Chipper can, but Chipper would not have survived the 2v1 gank. The game is more or less over at this point because Pebbles will constantly gank around the map, without having to wait for cooldowns, and nobody on the Hellbourne team can survive the combo.

Bear in mind as well that Parallax knows what he's doing. He has 82% win rate. That must be the reason he's soloing instead of Deadwood.

Tell me why you think Hellbourne lost. To my mind the only viable explanation is that Solstice got an invisibility rune at 2 minutes, which is just ridiculous, because it means the other four Hellbourne players made no relevant decisions and the game was over once Pebbles got the first kill.

Hero is busted, there's a reason why I ban him every game unless teammates say they want to pick him.

Edited by Sorais
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6 hours ago, Sorais said:

Pebbles is so overpowered I have no idea why he hasn't been nerfed yet, just watched this game where he had like 13 kills in 11 minutes. One could easily say "yeah anyone can snowball like that", except it's so difficult to imagine Deadwood, Succubus, Wretched Hag, etc getting 13 kills in 11 minutes because they're all ult dependent. Pebbles gets to snowball hard, is difficult to kill, can nuke creep waves to push/farm later in the game, etc, and he's somehow not overpowered. Yeah ...

I get what you imply there (might be wrong, lol) but I guess you should directly criticize rather than doing this because everyone seemed take this serious.

Edit: nevermind this post. Didn't update this discussion while writing this.

Edited by datfizh

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