Jump to content

Welcome to the Heroes of Newerth forums

The forums have received a complete makeover. Click the button below to read more about it.
Read more

You are again stuck on a deserted island...  

23 members have voted

  1. 1. You are again stuck on a deserted island...

    • Eat Foot
      11
    • Eat Spouse
      12


Recommended Posts

Is it intended for Nitro Ult to be able to hit Fayde during Shadow Walk if she was targeted before Shadowwalking?


I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well that was a clean answer. Good to know at least.


I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 7/28/2020 at 4:31 PM, Bersk said:

so it kinda worries me that I might end up playing against draconis and sols every game for that long

->i dont think Draconis benefits from the jungle changes. Strong aspect of the hero was taking triple stack of ancients pretty early. So in my mind he is out of the equation.
Regarding Solstice i have already stated in the past that i cant agree with the general kit the hero has( all around abilities , stun, fear, lifesteal, invisible,slow, mov.speed buff/ attack speed buff ) + the fact he is a jungler. Lots of people argue that he aint so strong, statement i can agree with also,coz obv its actually situational how effective he can be.
Some factors behind his effectiveness  are  for example: who is the  player playing ( like Dutch destroying a game earlier at legendary), or what rank he is being played. But i do believe he will be overplayed. I can agree with you on that(not that he wasnt already;number 1 used champion) .

I still find the hero kinda absurd atm though.  I have already tasted in 2 games how fast he can jungle now, and its kinda weird, seeing a strength hero, with no strength items do so much. And still this opinion i have is due to his multi factional kit. This is what offers him the ability to ``excel`` .
For sure,I dont want a rework on the hero, i love complex heroes, with lots of buttons.But number twists  could be, okeish?... On an opposite argument though this might make the hero useless, so i cant really tell; in the end i guess im fine as he is. Jungle/carry heroes arent a lot tbh, and its good he provides diversity in the hero pool. Thats my point of view anyhow for both of them.

->On the jungle changes, at first glance i didnt like them. But i did stated that if the trade of the pull camp was the revival of jungle, i would take it 10 out of 10 times. and it kinda seems like the case. Game became too monotonous with the 2-1-2 strats. Its good for the overal CoL of the game to have more gamestyles. Its nice seeing again suicide heroes, and junglers. What is better is seeing a Tempest in the game, and actually having a protagonist role, rather than a struggling one 👨‍💻. Just love it ❤️ .

Some twists that maybe good to happen in the next patch, eventually will come forth. Every patch needs time. And this patch seems promising, we will see 😄 .

 

edit: im interested to see the Salomon /jungle viability 😮  

Edited by doctornik

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I have two thoughts about some balance effects.
1. Do you guys consider that Behe's SOTM should stay with the current CD? It's still good, but I consider that having the jump sub-ability cooldown is a better power scale for a SOTM upgrade. Is the mobility in such a low CD the main reason? Is it more specific, like giving him an annoying escape? Could giving the sub-ability a 3-sec CD on damage be a viable exchange?
2. Do you consider the previous buff to Pred (giving the restrain effect) is a good direction of balance? Up until now, I still feel that it got rid of one of the natural weaknesses of Predator, which involved being kited if without a team. Because of the change, the amount of heroes that could give him issues was heavily reduced (specially in a suicide vs safe lane scenario), his powerspike became bigger and he became another hero that could buy a farming item and then go nuts (since he already had magic immunity, an iconic strength of him). Because of this, Stone Hide got nerfed, which I feel might become a starting point of other nerfs that could lead him to become less unique (restrain being an iconic strong point of Berzerker)

Related to the two points, I do believe that Restrain is an effect needed in HoN because of the amount of blink and pseudo-blink abilities, but having it in more carry heroes as part of their kit takes away it’s uniqueness and the pros and cons when picking a suitable hero for that role. I think having the effect in new item could be and interesting trade-off if it is a dead-end one though, as it will still allow the heavy hitters to get rid of their weakness at the cost of an item slot.

Edited by Bersk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bersk said:

Do you consider the previous buff to Pred (giving the restrain effect) is a good direction of balance? Up until now, I still feel that it got rid of one of the natural weaknesses of Predator, which involved being kited if without a team. Because of the change, the amount of heroes that could give him issues was heavily reduced (specially in a suicide vs safe lane scenario), his powerspike became bigger and he became another hero that could buy a farming item and then go nuts (since he already had magic immunity, an iconic strength of him). Because of this, Stone Hide got nerfed, which I feel might become a starting point of other nerfs that could lead him to become less unique (restrain being an iconic strong point of Berzerker)

Related to the two points, I do believe that Restrain is an effect needed in HoN because of the amount of blink and pseudo-blink abilities, but having it in more carry heroes as part of their kit takes away it’s uniqueness and the pros and cons when picking a suitable hero for that role. I think having the effect in new item could be and interesting trade-off if it is a dead-end one though, as it will still allow the heavy hitters to get rid of their weakness at the cost of an item slot.

really well said, i agree with your thoughts and worries. and the arguments you brought on the table. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 8/10/2020 at 9:53 AM, w3_StarBoy said:

i dont play dota 2 but isnt Lunar Tear/Golden Apple on dota can be target on ally ??

Golden apple/lunar tear shares same targeting system as their equivalent in dota 2. You could check that yourself.

https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Faerie_Fire (lunar tear equivalent)

https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Enchanted_Mango (golden apple equivalent)

Edit:

On 6/17/2020 at 10:32 AM, Hubaris said:

So would it be insane for Codex to scale like 400 / 550 / 700 / 850 / 1000 instead of just 400 / 500 / 600 / 700 / 800?

Considering the item costs 7000 Gold to fully upgrade, most other items at that cost do far more for far less.

Talking about Codex, I also have suggestion as written below:

Spoiler

Deals 200/250/300/350/400 magic damage then combusts up to 200/250/300/350/400 mana, dealing 100% mana combusted as non-lethal magic damage.

Thought process: from this suggestion, Codex will have a utility while retaining its burst potential. No lethal damage to mana combustion is also suggested as  a drawback to such utility.

 

Edited by datfizh
Rewrite Codex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While you have certain heroes that do really well with specific items, there are heroes that don't. So how can you balance this out? Try to remove the heroes and keep the items, or try to remove the items and keep the heroes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How would people feel about getting +1 to all ability levels upon hitting level 25? Right now after 14 there's little to no ability progression and you just get XP as a side-effect of farming gold but there is no goal to getting levels anymore aside from stat growth. Or maybe a reward like the kongor rewards (choose between 50 movespeed, 15% damage output, or +20 to all stats). Maybe automatic SotM boost? (only if everyone has a staff of course). Lot's of possibilities.

It's just an idea, and it doesn't have to be any of these, but I do feel like it could make the game more interesting if there was a significant reward upon reaching max level. In doto when you hit level cap you unlock all talents and it's massive, and I know talents aren't happening in HoN, but it does give you this goal to work toward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Righteous Strike Adjustment Suggestion

  • Increases cooldown from 8 seconds to 9 seconds.
  • For every allied hero alive, reducing the set cooldown of this ability by 0.25/0.5/0.75/1 second (Sets cooldown to 8/7/6/5 seconds if all allies are alive).

Thought process: a buff to Jeraziah carry potential by encouraging his role as support.

Edited by datfizh
Thought?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe make the cooldown reduction faster if there are ally heroes around X radius?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

Weird Passive, bring confuse and wrong calculator

Think of this cooldown as using Logger's Hatchet. If you use Hatchet on non-unit (tree, ward, gadget), the cooldown is set to be shorter than using it on unit. So, if you have all allied heroes alive, the cooldown will be set as I wrote when it goes on cooldown.

Raw Calculation:

Alive allied hero(es) - 4/3/2/1/0

Level 1 - 8/8.25/8.5/8.75/9 seconds

Level 2 - 7/7.5/8/8.5/9 seconds

Level 3 - 6/6.75/7.5/8.25/9 seconds

Level 4 - 5/6/7/8/9 seconds

 

3 hours ago, Bersk said:

Maybe make the cooldown reduction faster if there are ally heroes around X radius?

Well, that also works to me.

In the end, my thought process on this suggestion because Jeraziah player on some player level tend to make himself a pure carry. So, this suggestion is intended to direct Jeraziah player to also use Jeraziah as support hero by reward than nerf.

Edited by datfizh
Raw Calculation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why you want the skill that deal % bonus damage as true damage to have short cooldown to increase the potential of support? You just make people build jera as a busted carry.

Also it's confuse because the skill cd always change but you cant do anything about it.


HoN SEA Player

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/5/2020 at 1:31 AM, w3_StarBoy said:

Why you want the skill that deal % bonus damage as true damage to have short cooldown to increase the potential of support? You just make people build jera as a busted carry.

Good point to make me realize that I misused the term of support and carry on this discussion so I have to rephrase the thought process of this suggestion, it's to make Jeraziah player considering his allies safety to get the benefit by utilizing his abilities. So, yes he'll be a busted carry from this suggestion.

On 9/5/2020 at 1:31 AM, w3_StarBoy said:

Also it's confuse because the skill cd always change but you cant do anything about it.

Not really always change, it depends on the teammates and I suppose the player could play around the mechanic.

Proposed Mechanic Sequence:

Righteous Strike off cooldown >> Hits enemy >> Calculating number of allied heroes alive >> Sets the cooldown >> Goes on cooldown with the set number >> Repeat.

Edit:

New Suggestion to Cthulhuphant

Spoiler

1. Merge Maddening Revenge to Dream of Madness: passively deal physical damage to dealer equals to 40/80/120% of Cthulhuphant's strength whenever he takes physical damage from the damage dealer. Dream of Madness active works as it does currently.

2. New passive replacing Maddening Revenge, Hook 'em: Passively non-hero unit in 200 radius to Cthulhuphant takes 20% more damage from him. Also passively every unit dies in 200 radius to Cthulhuphant grants him a shield equals to 0/20/20/20% of dying unit max health, at a maximum 0/150/300/450 shield can be acquired. The shield absorbs 50% of pre-mitigation damage taken from Cthulhuphant's front down to 0% at 100 degree from the front.

Thought process:

  • Maddening Revenge seems likely to be less picked on early game so merging it with Dream of Madness not gonna change much but buff early game Dream of Madness.
  • Hook 'em as a reminiscence of old Cthulhuphant ability is proposed to fill Maddening Revenge proposed merging and it still fits his current abilities.
  • To make his early phase at staying on lane not buffed too much, Hook 'em is proposed to be two-point wonder ability so Cthulhuphant needs to sacrifice two of his levels to get shield benefit.

 

Edited by datfizh
Cthulhuphant suggestion to refresh discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Overpowered heroes:
1. Draconis - too fast gold and exp accumulation speed. 500 gpm and level 8 while solo-laners can get at most level 6 and 450 gpm from the lane creeps? What is the point in going solo-lane if you can easily snowball by farming in woods? Also high dps damage output, high mobility, good crowd control...

2. Engineer - has been overperforming in both supporting and ganking roles due to much higher damage output than an average nuker (e.g: pyromancer, bombardier, ellonia) with less reliance on cooldown, also has a stun, a silence (or two), and a slow spell, which means significantly less risk of death.

3. Oogie - need to lower farming capacity, Oogie is an early-mid combat hero with carry potential, he is farming too fast with spell damage, usually need well-organized gank from multiple opponents to deal with with lesser chance of success than to an average carry, easily snowballing

4. Salomon - too fast gold accumulation speed, usually need well-organized gank from multiple opponents to deal with with lesser chance of success than to an average carry, easily snowballing

5. Calamity - too long agility stealing duration

 

The imbalanced power of strength heroes with crowd control and farming power have shifted the HoN meta greatly comparing to the diverse strategy of the old days. Do you often see agility carry picks such as tdl, silhouette or magebane in tournament games anymore? Or are they replaced with oogie, maliken, hammerstorm, zephyr...? How about the often mid-laner pick-up of wretched hag, bubbles, blood hunter, dampeer?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/10/2020 at 4:35 PM, Acnowlogia said:

Overpowered heroes:
1. Draconis - too fast gold and exp accumulation speed. 500 gpm and level 8 while solo-laners can get at most level 6 and 450 gpm from the lane creeps? What is the point in going solo-lane if you can easily snowball by farming in woods? Also high dps damage output, high mobility, good crowd control...

That's pretty normal to me if a jungler manages to have faster gold and exp accumulation than solo-laner (I suppose this solo-laner is mid-laner because sui less likely affords to get that gpm against dual lane/ tri lane). I agree on his high mobility, making him what he is.

On 9/10/2020 at 4:35 PM, Acnowlogia said:

2. Engineer - has been overperforming in both supporting and ganking roles due to much higher damage output than an average nuker (e.g: pyromancer, bombardier, ellonia) with less reliance on cooldown, also has a stun, a silence (or two), and a slow spell, which means significantly less risk of death.

I guess roughly Engineer damage output is pretty much same as nuker you've mentioned. Though, I admit he's more versatile than average nuker you've mentioned.

On 9/10/2020 at 4:35 PM, Acnowlogia said:

3. Oogie - need to lower farming capacity, Oogie is an early-mid combat hero with carry potential, he is farming too fast with spell damage, usually need well-organized gank from multiple opponents to deal with lesser chance of success than to an average carry, easily snowballing.

Oogie from my perspective is similar to Soul Reaper but less versatile. Give your opinion to my statement.

On 9/10/2020 at 4:35 PM, Acnowlogia said:

4. Salomon - too fast gold accumulation speed, usually need well-organized gank from multiple opponents to deal with lesser chance of success than to an average carry, easily snowballing.

I don't know why Salomon has lesser chance to be successfully ganked when he has no escape and no cc ability.

On 9/10/2020 at 4:35 PM, Acnowlogia said:

5. Calamity - too long agility stealing duration.

That long duration makes the ability worth to be leveled up.

On 9/10/2020 at 4:35 PM, Acnowlogia said:

The imbalanced power of strength heroes with crowd control and farming power have shifted the HoN meta greatly comparing to the diverse strategy of the old days. Do you often see agility carry picks such as tdl, silhouette or magebane in tournament games anymore? Or are they replaced with oogie, maliken, hammerstorm, zephyr...? How about the often mid-laner pick-up of wretched hag, bubbles, blood hunter, dampeer?

Partially agree on your statement. I disagree on imbalanced power of strength heroes statement but I agree on crowd control and farming tool what makes carry heroes picked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all thank you for your elaboration on this discussion.

1 hour ago, datfizh said:

That's pretty normal to me if a jungler manages to have faster gold and exp accumulation than solo-laner (I suppose this solo-laner is mid-laner because sui less likely affords to get that gpm against dual lane/ tri lane). I agree on his high mobility, making him what he is.

In what kind of meta do you see jungler to have significantly higher gold and exp accumulation than solo laner? If it was the case, meta would revolve around competing for jungle instead of in lane. In the past 10 years I have rarely seen a jungler hero that could achieve 500 gpm at level 6 and use that as a key to snowball his opponents. Even Salomon and Wildsoul were the fastest junglers in the game at some point could not achieve that gpm, and they were heroes with much less snowballing capability, higher risk of expose due to itemization, and less mobility, in contradiction to Draconis. Most importantly, they weren't able to get significantly higher gpm than a solo-laner during the early phase of the game (e.g. before level 6 to 8). And if you take a look at parasite, tempest or ophelia, their cap gpm from woods in the early phase is below 400, and they get more or less the same xpm as solo midlaner.

I bet you would change your mind if you see a level 11 draconis purely from farming woods when other 9 players highest level is 8.

 

Quote

I guess roughly Engineer damage output is pretty much same as nuker you've mentioned. Though, I admit he's more versatile than average nuker you've mentioned.

If you compare the damage of engineer with, for example, pyromancer. He has about the same damage output within an instance. What gives him even more damage is the fact that he has significantly lower spell cooldown (from mines and ultimate), and can make up for the gap in cooldown with stacks of mines. He has also more debuff, so his laning presence doesn't get much weaker without his ulti, whereas a hero that relies on ultimate like pyromancer get significantly weaker laning presence (people aren't afraid of pyromancer without his ulti, there are million ways to roll over him). Comparing to other nukers, he just beats everyone because he has 3 debuff spells, like a vindicator but with more damage. He's, as you said, a too versatile hero, which needs a nerf either in (early) damage or in crowd control.

Quote

Oogie from my perspective is similar to Soul Reaper but less versatile. Give your opinion to my statement.

You're wrong on the versatility thing. If you take a look at 'high' tmm games nowadays, picking Oogie guarantees almost 80% of winning a match. He farms much faster than Soul Reaper, has higher speed, significantly higher damage output, higher healing capability, higher dps... so in every senses he exceeds Soul Reaper. Given free farm stage, he can easily initiate a combat, killing 3-4 heroes by himself or with limited help from some of his team members, tank every thing and came out alive. Only possibility to stop him is to stagnant his early game. But he is quite a strong hero in a 2v2 situation as well so stopping him isn't as easy as stopping a hard carry like maliken, magebane or tdl.

Quote

I don't know why Salomon has lesser chance to be successfully ganked when he has no escape and no cc ability.

Because of his ultimate and snowballing capacity. With the right itemization on Salomon you will need to have at least 3 team members to be able to gank him, otherwise the damage output limited by level and item are the things that will fail your attempt because he regen faster than you can damage him. If he was free farming for 15 minutes then you need more than 3 team members for sure. Although it is a counterable hero, not as overpowered as draconis, but without specific heroes such as Salforis, it is much more challenging to gank a Salomon than a normal agility carry.

Quote

That long duration makes the ability worth to be leveled up.

True, it is much more worth to be leveled up than other of his nuking spells 😉

Quote

Partially agree on your statement. I disagree on imbalanced power of strength heroes statement but I agree on crowd control and farming tool what makes carry heroes picked.

Still, it is noticeable that agility heroes have fallen short on higher games. People pick agility carries much less often than they would pick a strength carry nowadays, based from what I observe in the legendary and above rank games. They do pick agility heroes sometimes but prefer those with tanking mechanism such as Corrupted Disciple, Arachna, Gunblade...

Edited by Acnowlogia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/10/2020 at 11:35 AM, Acnowlogia said:

Overpowered heroes:
1. Draconis - too fast gold and exp accumulation speed. 500 gpm and level 8 while solo-laners can get at most level 6 and 450 gpm from the lane creeps? What is the point in going solo-lane if you can easily snowball by farming in woods? Also high dps damage output, high mobility, good crowd control...

2. Engineer - has been overperforming in both supporting and ganking roles due to much higher damage output than an average nuker (e.g: pyromancer, bombardier, ellonia) with less reliance on cooldown, also has a stun, a silence (or two), and a slow spell, which means significantly less risk of death.

3. Oogie - need to lower farming capacity, Oogie is an early-mid combat hero with carry potential, he is farming too fast with spell damage, usually need well-organized gank from multiple opponents to deal with with lesser chance of success than to an average carry, easily snowballing

4. Salomon - too fast gold accumulation speed, usually need well-organized gank from multiple opponents to deal with with lesser chance of success than to an average carry, easily snowballing

5. Calamity - too long agility stealing duration

 

The imbalanced power of strength heroes with crowd control and farming power have shifted the HoN meta greatly comparing to the diverse strategy of the old days. Do you often see agility carry picks such as tdl, silhouette or magebane in tournament games anymore? Or are they replaced with oogie, maliken, hammerstorm, zephyr...? How about the often mid-laner pick-up of wretched hag, bubbles, blood hunter, dampeer?

 

I agree with every part, just add Doctor repulsor and Gunblade to the heroes that might deserve a litttle nerf 🙂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all, thank you for replying my short comment about your statement.

On 9/15/2020 at 6:43 PM, Acnowlogia said:

First of all thank you for your elaboration on this discussion.

In what kind of meta do you see jungler to have significantly higher gold and exp accumulation than solo laner? If it was the case, meta would revolve around competing for jungle instead of in lane. In the past 10 years I have rarely seen a jungler hero that could achieve 500 gpm at level 6 and use that as a key to snowball his opponents. Even Salomon and Wildsoul were the fastest junglers in the game at some point could not achieve that gpm, and they were heroes with much less snowballing capability, higher risk of expose due to itemization, and less mobility, in contradiction to Draconis. Most importantly, they weren't able to get significantly higher gpm than a solo-laner during the early phase of the game (e.g. before level 6 to 8). And if you take a look at parasite, tempest or ophelia, their cap gpm from woods in the early phase is below 400, and they get more or less the same xpm as solo midlaner.

I bet you would change your mind if you see a level 11 draconis purely from farming woods when other 9 players highest level is 8.

What's on your mind about the reason of Draconis to have such high gold and exp on jungle?

Also, what do you think about Solstice and Legionnaire jungle? They're quite fast IMO because of their kit could kill many creeps at once.

On 9/15/2020 at 6:43 PM, Acnowlogia said:

If you compare the damage of engineer with, for example, pyromancer. He has about the same damage output within an instance. What gives him even more damage is the fact that he has significantly lower spell cooldown (from mines and ultimate), and can make up for the gap in cooldown with stacks of mines. He has also more debuff, so his laning presence doesn't get much weaker without his ulti, whereas a hero that relies on ultimate like pyromancer get significantly weaker laning presence (people aren't afraid of pyromancer without his ulti, there are million ways to roll over him). Comparing to other nukers, he just beats everyone because he has 3 debuff spells, like a vindicator but with more damage. He's, as you said, a too versatile hero, which needs a nerf either in (early) damage or in crowd control.

Though, Engineer's potential damage and cc could be lessened by attacking his gadget.

On 9/15/2020 at 6:43 PM, Acnowlogia said:

You're wrong on the versatility thing. If you take a look at 'high' tmm games nowadays, picking Oogie guarantees almost 80% of winning a match. He farms much faster than Soul Reaper, has higher speed, significantly higher damage output, higher healing capability, higher dps... so in every senses he exceeds Soul Reaper. Given free farm stage, he can easily initiate a combat, killing 3-4 heroes by himself or with limited help from some of his team members, tank every thing and came out alive. Only possibility to stop him is to stagnant his early game. But he is quite a strong hero in a 2v2 situation as well so stopping him isn't as easy as stopping a hard carry like maliken, magebane or tdl.

My bad, the versatility I meant is in term of flexibility from carry to support and vice versa. Indeed, Oogie is overall a better carry than Soul Reaper.

On 9/15/2020 at 6:43 PM, Acnowlogia said:

Because of his ultimate and snowballing capacity. With the right itemization on Salomon you will need to have at least 3 team members to be able to gank him, otherwise the damage output limited by level and item are the things that will fail your attempt because he regen faster than you can damage him. If he was free farming for 15 minutes then you need more than 3 team members for sure. Although it is a counterable hero, not as overpowered as draconis, but without specific heroes such as Salforis, it is much more challenging to gank a Salomon than a normal agility carry.

I believe spellsunder is still a thing to counter Salomon's ultimate. Also, I don't think agility carries with escape mechanism or tanking skill need less than 3 team members to successfully gank them.

On 9/15/2020 at 6:43 PM, Acnowlogia said:

True, it is much more worth to be leveled up than other of his nuking spells 😉

Well, I think it's still better that way because it opens up different skill leveling on different occasion rather than level Q then W pattern.

On 9/15/2020 at 6:43 PM, Acnowlogia said:

Still, it is noticeable that agility heroes have fallen short on higher games. People pick agility carries much less often than they would pick a strength carry nowadays, based from what I observe in the legendary and above rank games. They do pick agility heroes sometimes but prefer those with tanking mechanism such as Corrupted Disciple, Arachna, Gunblade.

Agree on your statement. So, which agility carries on your mind do need a treatment to compete other meta carries?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pebbles is so overpowered I have no idea why he hasn't been nerfed yet, just watched this game where he had like 13 kills in 11 minutes. One could easily say "yeah anyone can snowball like that", except it's so difficult to imagine Deadwood, Succubus, Wretched Hag, etc getting 13 kills in 11 minutes because they're all ult dependent. Pebbles gets to snowball hard, is difficult to kill, can nuke creep waves to push/farm later in the game, etc, and he's somehow not overpowered. Yeah ...

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi datfizh, here are my comments

On 9/17/2020 at 11:49 AM, datfizh said:

First of all, thank you for replying my short comment about your statement.

What's on your mind about the reason of Draconis to have such high gold and exp on jungle?

Also, what do you think about Solstice and Legionnaire jungle? They're quite fast IMO because of their kit could kill many creeps at once.

Draconis passive dps has too high stacking damage. I have seen a level 6 draconis with bottle and boots clearing triple ancient stack. I am not sure if this was intended by ElementUser.

Solstice and Legio, given free farming, are relatively fast farmers, on par with Parasite and faster than Tempest and Ophelia, but cannot be as fast as Draconis. Also, there are niches in their behaviour which the opponent team could exploit. Legio needs a Portal Key to be able to gank efficiently, and also some armor/regen to be able to survive in a gank situation, so he can generally gank after level 7, which is totally fine because that is already the late-early game phase. Also, given the fact that Legio is going to gank after he has his PK, it is so much easier to plan a strategy to gank him before, or counter-gank him, or avoiding him and waste his ganking time. Solstice needs to rely on night time to increase his ganking efficient. Of course this is not absolute, but ganking in daytime gives him more risk of exposure and thus more risk of unsucessful gank and thus more risk of getting a consistent GPM. Night time comes at the end of early game phase, so it was fine since it is in the ganking period. Also because of this nature of the hero, it makes it possible for the opponent team to be aware of Solstice ganking presence at night time, because it is more efficient for him to gank than to farm in woods without aoe passive.

In term of early item choice, a Draconis will likely get a bottle and ghost marchers, plus his spells that makes it harder to gank him than to gank either Solstice or Legio, whatever Solstice or Legio choose as starting items. In short, they are both strong heroes, but not to the point I would call Overpowered.

On 9/17/2020 at 11:49 AM, datfizh said:

Though, Engineer's potential damage and cc could be lessened by attacking his gadget.

Imagine in a combat situation, would you rather spend time to do everything you could to drag the enemy down with you, or spend time hitting the gadget and get roll over by a bunch of spells from the opponent team? Difference between life and death is within the matter of < 3 seconds, so is the difference between kill and be killed. In many situation it would take you at least 1s to take out the turret and more to take out the ultimate, given that nothing is stopping you. Enemies don't wait for you to cancel their spells, or at least in high TMM they won't.

On 9/17/2020 at 11:49 AM, datfizh said:

My bad, the versatility I meant is in term of flexibility from carry to support and vice versa. Indeed, Oogie is overall a better carry than Soul Reaper.

Oogie was never intended to be a support though :S

On 9/17/2020 at 11:49 AM, datfizh said:

I believe spellsunder is still a thing to counter Salomon's ultimate. Also, I don't think agility carries with escape mechanism or tanking skill need less than 3 team members to successfully gank them.

It is indeed an item to counter Salomon's ultimate. Even so, it is still possible for Salomon to snowball with his items alone. Spell Sunder's debuff is meaningless if you can't deal enough damage to drop the hero's HP to 0 within the duration of the debuff. Therefore i said it is possible to gank a Salomon, but the amount of effort it needs (in term of item choice, number of teammates, and ganking strategy...) is much more in comparison to other normal carries.

On 9/17/2020 at 11:49 AM, datfizh said:

Well, I think it's still better that way because it opens up different skill leveling on different occasion rather than level Q then W pattern.

If it is balanced, it creates variation as you said. In this situation, the 3rd spell is too OP so the optimized skill leveling strategy is to max E before anything else. 9/10 would do this in the games that I have played in. Again, I may be biased with High TMM experience, people might behave differently in lower ranks.

On 9/17/2020 at 11:49 AM, datfizh said:

Agree on your statement. So, which agility carries on your mind do need a treatment to compete other meta carries?

Generally speaking, nerfing the farming potential or damage output during the early- and mid-game phase of the heroes I mentioned would be optimal.

Right now, players are exploiting the fact that:

- Hard carries farm the slowest during early- and mid-game and are most vulnerable

- Strength heroes (those I mentioned) farm much faster during the same period, and also have higher survivability and sometimes higher mobility as well

- These OP strength hero can regroup during mid-game and gank the carry, due to the large difference in gpm and xpm, they don't need 5 to beat 5, they can beat 5 with 3 or 4, giving their other farmers precious space during mid-game

- Many games end with the space gap created. Even if the ganks are only succesful to some extend (kill a support or two), there is a solid difference between the free farming carry and a carry who is pressured by an opponent and constantly dragged into combat situation.

These are the things that change the meta of the game to the current state. If you twitch any of the above-mentioned points, the meta will shift to another direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sorais said:

Pebbles is so overpowered I have no idea why he hasn't been nerfed yet, just watched this game where he had like 13 kills in 11 minutes. One could easily say "yeah anyone can snowball like that", except it's so difficult to imagine Deadwood, Succubus, Wretched Hag, etc getting 13 kills in 11 minutes because they're all ult dependent. Pebbles gets to snowball hard, is difficult to kill, can nuke creep waves to push/farm later in the game, etc, and he's somehow not overpowered. Yeah ...

I agree with you that Pebbles is stronger than Deadwood and Wretched Hag, but it wasn't because Pebbles is OP but rather Deadwood and WH are underpowered (or in fact they have good spells but their roles aren't suitable for mid anymore). The argument to this is because there are several heroes that can compete with Pebbles or counter him.

Example of heroes on par with Pebbles: Rally, Gauntlet, Lord Salforis, Drunken Master, Pandamonium...

Example of heroes that counter Pebbles (those with high armor/hp and those with slow): Flux, Gunblade, Slither, Nitro, Engineer...

Also, aside the fact that Pebbles is vulnerable early game, he is also vulnerable during combat when his combo landed but the opponent doesn't die.

In short, the hero is strong and flexible in many situations but he also has many weakness that the opponents can exploit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...