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You are again stuck on a deserted island...  

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  1. 1. You are again stuck on a deserted island...

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Str + illu is for them to be tanky enough to not get wiped by spells and generate value by being able to stay in the fight longer. However i find Xemplar to be quite boring, the hero revolves too much around his ult so all his basic spells seem lacking without it.

 

Regarding Tarot ult, i actually prefer when she had charges and could built it up. The way i see it, it was less about being forced to participate in kills to bring the skill up to its normal base line, but more of not having any charge is the normal base line, then you snowball and get rewarded by taking successful fight as a carry early on, and gain permanent advantage due to it. For a carry, joining fights as opposed to afk farming is already always a risk, so Tarot having a mechanic that rewarded taking this kind of risk, breaking the mold of safely afk farming avoiding fights seemed like a nice change/variance. Starkly contrasted with current tarot, who farms for a bit then crit for maximum power.

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The same poll.... Oh dear.   Oh yeah, the regular Balance/Design subforum rules don't apply in this thread (but the global forum rules still do). You can chat about almost anything you want

In keeping in the spirit of HoN, I feel like a place for people to have less formal discussion about Balance while still having a place to discuss Balance is required. Sometimes there are discussions

Honestly Blacksmith IS the RNG. What would be his identity without it? You could do something similar to Legionnaire but with the power of a 1600 Damage Multicast on the line its a little more than ju

8 hours ago, Bersk said:

I think ElementUser comment is because you didn't mention a suggestion, you just described how it worked, which is not that different from now except that if you attack the marked hero, it also bounces. Is that the part you are complaining about?

Im not complaining. As i said i love the hero.I dont want her to get nerfed!!!!!!!! ?


And yes that was the part i said it could change, as it will give another task for Tarot in teamfights to be able to nuke 2 heroes down.
At the moment if u mark a hero, wherever u attack you are getting the bounce effect. So you are nuking 2 heroes down without any effort, and u only need to worry about positioning and items activation etc; whilst at the same time u are getting 100% damage output of Tarot without any particular effort.
 In the past to get that maximum efficiency u had to mark someone and hit another target, so as the hit will bounce to the marked one. Its not a big skill regardless, but still i believe it can separate the really good carry players in the game ,that can multitask during a fight from the good ones . 


 

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Posted (edited)

@cobaye

Regarding Xemplar, he seems kinda boring, but he is super strong. He is not my type of Hero i would pick though. But if for example random him, i wouldnt say he has flows or something. Same goes for Warchief.And they do have a position.

-Xemplar is best played position 1 or 2 (position 3 can exist for him also if u get a strong nuker )
-Warchief.( position 2 or 3)- seen him also position 1 but not ideal place for him ? 
So maybe in your eyes they dont have a position in the game, but believe me they have .In my eyes is all about flavour. There are heroes some people just dont like and dont want to play them ( me myself for example, goldenveil, which i see as useless pick regardless), but for others there is a place for them in the game
 

 

Edited by doctornik
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Posted (edited)

Maybe more Design-related than Balance but, is there any reasons as to why should the enemy team know when my team calls for a concede vote? I do have some ideas for the pause, but not for the concede.

Edited by Bersk
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3 hours ago, Bersk said:

Maybe more Design-related than Balance but, is there any reasons as to why should the enemy team know when my team calls for a concede vote? I do have some ideas for the pause, but not for the concede.

As someone who plays head games with Concede Votes and knowing enemy Concede Votes, its probably not ideal to have it being shown. I think it just generates frustration as a whole.

Also, I feel like Tarot is a wasted concept for a Scrying, Fortune-Teller. Personal opinion of course.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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2 minutes ago, Hubaris said:

As someone who plays head games with Concede Votes and knowing enemy Concede Votes, its probably not ideal to have it being shown. I think it just generates frustration as a whole.

This

 

3 minutes ago, Hubaris said:

Also, I feel like Tarot is a wasted concept for a Scrying, Fortune-Teller. Personal opinion of course.

elaborate a bit more, im interested on your thought ?

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5 hours ago, Hubaris said:

As someone who plays head games with Concede Votes and knowing enemy Concede Votes, its probably not ideal to have it being shown. I think it just generates frustration as a whole.

Yeh, I'm wondering if there is a chance to remove that part from the concede vote and see how it affects the teams, but cannot suggest that if I don't know the reasons why it is there ?

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6 hours ago, doctornik said:

elaborate a bit more, im interested on your thought ?

Well basically we have this fortune teller, who's only ability that has anything to do with seeing the future, or luck, is her Scrying and her critical; but it's hardly flavoured to anything. What does a ricochet have to do with anything? Honestly they could have gone with the original concept, Ricochet and it would have been really servicable; a person who can bounce shots with her aim, trickshot them from one target to the other and so on.

I just think its a wasted concept for a fortune teller, which has some interesting design space.

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I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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6 minutes ago, Hubaris said:

Well basically we have this fortune teller, who's only ability that has anything to do with seeing the future, or luck, is her Scrying and her critical; but it's hardly flavoured to anything. What does a ricochet have to do with anything? Honestly they could have gone with the original concept, Ricochet and it would have been really servicable; a person who can bounce shots with her aim, trickshot them from one target to the other and so on.

I just think its a wasted concept for a fortune teller, which has some interesting design space.

interesting thoughts i have to admit, and i cant say that i can disagree with the way you are putting it. You got a point

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For Goldenveil can we get a list of "Wanted" targets on his R? Just a quick list of names who need to be killed to be refreshed?

I know you can't really add it to the tooltip as it changes throughout the game, but is there a way to do it without playing the look all around the map and count coins game?

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Fact: when Harkons was was implemented it was supposed to be for casters what shieldbreaker is for auto-attackers.

Opinion: harkons is absolute shite for casters (thunderbringer, witch slayer, ellonia, torturer, ....). It's almost exclusively picked up by heroes that rely on auto-hits with some exceptions like DR (half his damage comes from overload hits anyway) and casters with good auto-attack capabilities (hag, bubbles, gravekeeper).

If there is one item that missed its mark it'll be this one, and I honestly think it should be re-oriented to cater casters or very specifically counter void talismans. But right now harkons is without contest the best lategame dps item for heroes that are physical damage dealers.

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1 hour ago, Syllab said:

Fact: when Harkons was was implemented it was supposed to be for casters what shieldbreaker is for auto-attackers.

I dont know if what u are stating has some backgroud statement to support it. Harkons was always like this. Harkons was always from 2009 at HoN if im not mistaken. And casters dont actually benefit from auttoattacking, thus the spell orianted - built they always follow.  Harkons was not put into the game ,so it will be a casters exclusive pick up. The effect of minor -5 mag. armor do benefit casters true, but the item has a variety of usage. 
And if u are looking for shieldbraker's analog in the game, its spellshards atm.
I really can expand more on the topic, but generally i dont think Harkons needs a rework, it has its place, its not abused or OP and  i find the argument u presented biased at some point.

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I was there when it was added and its purpose was initially to give casters an endgame damage option.

At the time spellshards did not yet exist and I wouldn't go as far as calling it a shieldbreaker equivalent. The item is percentage based armor pierce against an armor type that doesn't scale by levels. Because of this oftentimes it's not even worth getting on a caster hero and armor of the mad mage will always be preferrable due its flat reduction. Not to mention that mad mage gives a huge chunk of armor and and incredibly desirable activatable for caster heroes. Now if spellshards would cause you to reduce the enemy's magic armor by 2/3/4 or something like this upon receiving magical damage from the carrier, then yes, we'd have a shieldbreaker equivalent for casters. That idea stands very close to the current harkons blade excepting that it triggers on magic damage, while harkons triggers when auto-attacking a hero.

I'm not saying the item desperately needs a rework or is completely overpowered, imbalanced and abused in current gameplay, I'm saying that it completely missed its mark with the intended purpose, the result being we're here with spellshards which I see more as a non-item unless if the enemy team decides on going mass shamans. You say it has its place, that's true, but it annoys me like the S2 pathing annoys me. Unstucking your way out of unpathable terrain is in fact a bug that played out nicely. I still don't like it because it's a side-effect of something else and not actually meant to work that way so there is little to no control over it (what happens when other code is updated, how do you touch pathing from stuck spots without breaking something else now, ... relying on bugs and unintended effects to "work" for you is not exactly best practise). I don't know if that pathing code was ever changed, it might be, but it gets my point accross I hope.

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Harkon's Blade is overcompensation, if you ask me.

But I agree it is the best endgame item and always has been. Now with the removal of attack modifiers though, the item is actually a no brainer. Just having it change the damage to Magic is desirable enough, having the effective 'True' damage with the -5 debuff is even more insane. I think bumping up the mana cost per attack could help, but the buildup does include ~25 Int (so about 330 mana); and at 75 an attack you get 4 attacks for 'free' with the blade.

Perhaps making it so that Harkon's while toggled on drains your own magic armor as well could make the decision more interesting, and possibly turning it into an activation modifier that doesn't stack with Mad Mage or Shrunken... But then you get an arms race.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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For Apex, can we make the E have a free 1st rank even if it doesn't do anything? Minor QoL for Armageddon procs. 

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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5 hours ago, Hubaris said:

For Apex, can we make the E have a free 1st rank even if it doesn't do anything? Minor QoL for Armageddon procs. 

always had that question, what does the free 1st rank offers ?

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44 minutes ago, doctornik said:

always had that question, what does the free 1st rank offers ?

It allows you to take Armageddon without taking E just so you can Proc The Burning Ember to get that meaty stun.

I'm not sure why you would want to, but there might be situations where QW would provide more burst which you need.

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I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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18 minutes ago, Hubaris said:

It allows you to take Armageddon without taking E just so you can Proc The Burning Ember to get that meaty stun.

I'm not sure why you would want to, but there might be situations where QW would provide more burst which you need.

oh alright, gotcha, sanks very mats

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Posted (edited)

Look, I hate to be that guy who posts because one of his favourite toys got dunked on but I need to discuss Qi's Q.

At 1st level, for a grand total of 100 mana (or about a quarter of Qi's Pool), he is able to do a 1 second tapering slow and disarm. My issue isn't with the Mana Cost nerfs nor the scaling, but I think that the fact that it tapers makes the skill utterly pathetic at 1st level.

Time (s) Slow %
1 35
0.9 31.5
0.8 28
0.7 24.5
0.6 21
0.5 17.5
0.4 14
0.3 10.5
0.2 7
0.1 3.5
0

0

By about the half second mark, the slow is already degraded down to 17.5%. 

Comparing in general to other single target slows we have...

Backsmith W: 15% for 7 seconds.

Witchslayer W: Full Movespeed Slow and Disable for 2 seconds.

Ophelia Q: Tapering 15% over 6 seconds, which turns out to be a stronger slow than 35% tapering for 1 second.

"But!" you might be thinking "He isn't a support so these are unfair comparisons!"

MOA Q: 1.2 Second Targeted Stun.

MQ Q: 0.75 SecondTargeted Stun.

BW Q: 70% slow for 1 Second.

SW Q: 12% slow for 8 + 3 Seconds.

None of these even take into account the rest of the kit or mana, but Qi has no defensive options outside of Puncture. He is a sitting duck in lane and the only saving grace he has is the spammability on Q which was rightfully nerfed (from 70 to 100).  He doesn't have twin disables like Puppet Master, a Slow/Stun Combo like Gravekeeper, or anything else outside of the damage he provides as the game goes on. His laning phase now is utterly miserable and trying to stay alive and/or get kills is so rough.

I don't mind making it an important choice between leveling up Q, W and E, but when Q's first level is so noncompetitive, it actually limits the options so much.

Edited by Hubaris
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I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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On 6/10/2020 at 1:09 AM, Hubaris said:

Look, I hate to be that guy who posts because one of his favourite toys got dunked on but I need to discuss Qi's Q.

At 1st level, for a grand total of 100 mana (or about a quarter of Qi's Pool), he is able to do a 1 second tapering slow and disarm. My issue isn't with the Mana Cost nerfs nor the scaling, but I think that the fact that it tapers makes the skill utterly pathetic at 1st level.

Time (s) Slow %
1 35
0.9 31.5
0.8 28
0.7 24.5
0.6 21
0.5 17.5
0.4 14
0.3 10.5
0.2 7
0.1 3.5
0

0

By about the half second mark, the slow is already degraded down to 17.5%. 

Comparing in general to other single target slows we have...

Backsmith W: 15% for 7 seconds.

Witchslayer W: Full Movespeed Slow and Disable for 2 seconds.

Ophelia Q: Tapering 15% over 6 seconds, which turns out to be a stronger slow than 35% tapering for 1 second.

"But!" you might be thinking "He isn't a support so these are unfair comparisons!"

MOA Q: 1.2 Second Targeted Stun.

MQ Q: 0.75 SecondTargeted Stun.

BW Q: 70% slow for 1 Second.

SW Q: 12% slow for 8 + 3 Seconds.

None of these even take into account the rest of the kit or mana, but Qi has no defensive options outside of Puncture. He is a sitting duck in lane and the only saving grace he has is the spammability on Q which was rightfully nerfed (from 70 to 100).  He doesn't have twin disables like Puppet Master, a Slow/Stun Combo like Gravekeeper, or anything else outside of the damage he provides as the game goes on. His laning phase now is utterly miserable and trying to stay alive and/or get kills is so rough.

I don't mind making it an important choice between leveling up Q, W and E, but when Q's first level is so noncompetitive, it actually limits the options so much.

Judging by the arguments you presented , and examples given you do have a point. The overall nerfs done to him this patch and last patch were needed ones, but the change of the slow to tapering slow i can agree it was unnecessary 

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Before I started playing again (more or less 6-7 months ago I guess) I had a hiatus of a couple years, so I'm going to assume that there is a good reason for whispering helm to literally have a 12 minute cooldown?

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1 hour ago, Syllab said:

Before I started playing again (more or less 6-7 months ago I guess) I had a hiatus of a couple years, so I'm going to assume that there is a good reason for whispering helm to literally have a 12 minute cooldown?

Hey Syllab! I'm in the same boat so I'm going to speculate...

It probably has to do with Wildsoul or War Beast steamrolling entire teams before they can react. I mean, that's part of why Puzzlebox has always had the cooldown built in.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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No, it was just too polarizing of an item used by higher level players/pros compared to the average user. They were using that item to multistack camps by themselves, when teammates should help them do this (since it's team game & all). The multistacking led to GPM snowballing out of control for carries that know how to abuse the item to its limits.

 

The cooldown halving mechanic helps players get a new creep faster if their previous creep died, while keeping the item's power balanced in the hands of a high level player (which by the way is already incredibly powerful).


We want to reward skill, but not in such a disproportionate manner.

Edited by ElementUser
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I think that setting a max of 1 creep dominated at a time is more practical and achieves the same result. Ophelia has a limit so the mechanical aspect already exists.

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