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You are again stuck on a deserted island...  

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  1. 1. You are again stuck on a deserted island...

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Buffing cheap stat items might make some early game heroes that can't farm viable, but it shouldn't be as strong in dota where mid hero buys 3~4 amulets then sell them later.

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On 4/22/2020 at 6:27 AM, shelf said:

Blight Stones: Increase cost to 120g, give 4 charges. With free courier, making Blight Stones less granular will counter the effectiveness of constantly flying out regen. This is easy to see if Blight Stones were to cost 30g and gave one charge. This idea is already implemented in Health Potion's cooldown.
 

They currently cost 25g each iirc 🙂 

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Can we please mirror the Ranged and Melee Barracks in Midwars so that both teams have the Melee closer to the fountain? It is kind of ridiculous that the Legion one is incredibly easy to pick off compared to the risk attached to the Hellbourne one.


I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Posted (edited)
On 4/22/2020 at 12:27 AM, shelf said:

Blight Stones: Increase cost to 120g, give 4 charges. With free courier, making Blight Stones less granular will counter the effectiveness of constantly flying out regen. This is easy to see if Blight Stones were to cost 30g and gave one charge. This idea is already implemented in Health Potion's cooldown.

Have you considered how this would affect starting item loadouts?

Edited by ElementUser

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9 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

Have you considered how this would affect starting item loadouts?

It would mean having to sacrifice a potion or minor totem for core roles.

in case of supports this however is a massive hit.

 

What about if we give a +1 additional free Blight Stone charge when they are being purchased within the first minute before the waves spawn and before you have left base?
Basically as a "welcome to your match, here is a free blight stone ontop of your 2 blight stones" gift.

😛

 

unlikely to happen but why not

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Posted (edited)

Not sure if the hero needs buff, but i think kraken could use a change.

PK->W->R-> is too good on the hero, but the hero can barely function without it. Kraken's good laning is wasted when the hero uses too much mana and has to save up for a pk, thwarting any advantage he has in lane and any plan to buy efficient stat items to solidify it.

Maybe allow kraken to cast during charge so he can set up his ult even when not getting the stun off, kinda like geo, but also reduce its damage to nerf the pk combo a bit. Maybe reduce manacost a bit too.

Edited by rezziedahl

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14 hours ago, ElementUser said:

Have you considered how this would affect starting item loadouts?

Yes. Two problematic builds I found:

  • Orb of Zamos + 2 Wards + Blight Stone is 5 gold short.
  • Marchers + Blight Stones is 20 gold short.

Second one is fixed by implementing my suggestion of reducing Marchers cost to 400g. This would enable roaming builds.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Hannity said:

Yes. Two problematic builds I found:

  • Orb of Zamos + 2 Wards + Blight Stone is 5 gold short.
  • Marchers + Blight Stones is 20 gold short.

Second one is fixed by implementing my suggestion of reducing Marchers cost to 400g. This would enable roaming builds.

Hmm, I really would like a more complete list of starting item combinations that are more or less popular these days. I'm not convinced with this right now.

 

Also for Marchers: I would like to add that I would either have to add a recipe/extra component to compensate for the cost reduction (which means boots won't be disassemble-able anymore), or I would have to accept a 100g reduction in all boots (which I don't think is healthy for the game as boots upgrades are efficient regardless of the type of boots you have). I'm still not convinced on that change either.

Edited by ElementUser

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Posted (edited)
On 4/27/2020 at 3:15 PM, ElementUser said:

Hmm, I really would like a more complete list of starting item combinations that are more or less popular these days. I'm not convinced with this right now.

 

Also for Marchers: I would like to add that I would either have to add a recipe/extra component to compensate for the cost reduction (which means boots won't be disassemble-able anymore), or I would have to accept a 100g reduction in all boots (which I don't think is healthy for the game as boots upgrades are efficient regardless of the type of boots you have). I'm still not convinced on that change either.


the support go to built nowadays is zamos, stones, ward, and maybe even 2 minor totems/1 ward/1 healingpotion/1 reve.
so my thoughts:
1) zamos into gravelocket -> considered to give too much. and its in fact value for supports and carries as you already have zamos you just have to upgrade it ( like refreshment ointment into astrolabe) .    Just for people who dont know the numbers or for ease purposes, graves give:
 +50 xp for each stack
+10 gold for creep kill goes to your sychronized partener
+15 xp                -//-                                 -//-
+8 damage/ +10 mov. speed

i even know for a fact that the strat if you have sui, or duo man ups, is to push out the lane and pull stack farm. seen it done in many immortal games.(i can give proof for the non believers 😛 ) So as carry gets even more farmed and rich

so my suggestion could be : 
 remove zamos completely, leaving grave locket. split parts could be the same, just add recipe to graves.Thus with this change supports will be encouraged to go with more stats in the laning phase. either that is the guardian ring, or Mark of novice plus two minor totems, etc .(the items needed basically for graves built up)
 And maybe we could have a stronger competition against man up duo lanes. coz nowadays a support coming with zamos in the laning phase isnt so strong. Thus we have a more suffer game for hard carries.( ofc it doesnt apply to every situation, depends of the hero picks, the players etc )
And also that could be a solution to the complains about graves and maybe ease a bit the safe lane( dont think it will make it safer, but maybe make game even 1% more enjoyable for a carry that is a weak laner)
- this could go well alongside the minor buff of magic armor on some supports that i saw somewhere above.
so basically encouraging a stronger support early game, without necessarily over buffing them.  

dont know if anything of what i wrote might help, but i guess arguments, or even putting you in the process to read this can produce maybe an other idea or something. Hope it helps somehow. cheers 🧑‍💻

Edited by doctornik

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My main grip with Zamos currently is giving exp to the sincronized hero, which makes the item too good to pass on early, specially if you can stack, since you will get both the exp from the stack itself and the additional one from the farming hero (piling up the exp really quickly). I feel that this currently pushes you to constest the pulls as much as possible as to not get outleveled hard by the heroes with zamos, which is what i believe makes it almost the better option to have a man-up dual lane.

 

On another note, updating the wiki is gonna be harder than I expected, since most of the information was manually introduced and there is little automation (expected the heroes pages to take the info from the patch notes log for example, but is also hard text). Will take a look at how the Dota wiki is managed to see how feasible is that 😢

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1 hour ago, Bersk said:

My main grip with Zamos currently is giving exp to the sincronized hero, which makes the item too good to pass on early, specially if you can stack, since you will get both the exp from the stack itself and the additional one from the farming hero (piling up the exp really quickly). I feel that this currently pushes you to constest the pulls as much as possible as to not get outleveled hard by the heroes with zamos, which is what i believe makes it almost the better option to have a man-up dual lane.

 

On another note, updating the wiki is gonna be harder than I expected, since most of the information was manually introduced and there is little automation (expected the heroes pages to take the info from the patch notes log for example, but is also hard text). Will take a look at how the Dota wiki is managed to see how feasible is that 😢

Only Grave Locket gives XP to the other hero. 

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40 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

Only Grave Locket gives XP to the other hero. 

Yeh, I was referring to Grave, mistook the names 😛

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Should we nerfs Shaman's Headdress ?

This item is strong because it has too many Health Regeneration at a price 2050 Gold. Causing this item to be purchased more than necessary due to the high Health Regeneration value compared to the price.

My suggestion nerfs Shaman's Headdress: Health Regeneration reduced from 10 to 8.5 (be equal to total Health Regeneration from components of this item) but Health Regeneration of Barrier Idol still the same.

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I don't think so. I think that looking at raw numbers and comparing them to other raw numbers isn't a good way to look at it. Consider the Helm of the Black Legion, its closest equivalent. Helm prevents 60/30 damage 50% of the time (correct me if I'm wrong here). This averages out to 30/15 damage blocked per attack; the 1.5 health regeneration hit needs to act for 10 whole seconds to nullify a single attack.

You also have to compare the utility of an item like Helm, which allows you to safely farm ancients, tank Kongor earlier, tank towers and much more.

I feel that outside of PVP Environments, Shaman's doesn't do enough so nerfing it seems a little much.


I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Obscure`IV said:

Should we nerfs Shaman's Headdress ?

This item is strong because it has too many Health Regeneration at a price 2050 Gold. Causing this item to be purchased more than necessary due to the high Health Regeneration value compared to the price.

My suggestion nerfs Shaman's Headdress: Health Regeneration reduced from 10 to 8.5 (be equal to total Health Regeneration from components of this item) but Health Regeneration of Barrier Idol still the same.

i dont agree with that ,as the item at this current meta is actually diminished by the amount of spellshards purchased. as i mentioned somewhere before a 15 mag.armor, is reduced to 5,25. basically . meaning its already hard countered by another 2,5 k item that is a core item nowadays for every speller.

ofc this is one  answer. there could be many arguments  why shamans doesnt need nerf. Hubaris above stated also something correct. 
this is just what popped in my head as soon as i saw ur post 

Edited by doctornik

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Would like to see a small change in Raxes, as to not always have the Melee one as priority when breaking highground. Currently, destroying an enemy melee rax forces them to not only have to deal with stronger melee creeps, but also receive less gold for them. Was thinking about swapping the gold effect between raxes: Melee raxes will buff melee creeps, but make ranged creeps of that lane give less gold, while the ranged rax will buff ranged and make melee creeps give less gold. Not only does it make the decision a more strategic one, but also gives a little more breath to the losing team

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Posted (edited)

On a second read I'm not a fan of that. I think that the problem is that by not ending the game you ultimately make the game harder by having a safer, static farmable lane. Imagine you take out the Melee Rax, now the SINGLE ranged unit is giving half gold, but the lane is still pushing up. Now all you do is deliver gold to the enemy team because frankly, Super Creeps aren't that strong.

If anything I still stand by that we should make the Catapults dictated by the Ranged Rax as well and give them a large enough boost to make the siege power worthwhile. 

Basically you should never be punished for successfully taking a Rax.

Edited by Hubaris

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Well, I didn't consider that it could be taken as pooling gold for the enemy team, though maybe because i don't feel that Super creeps are weak at all (specially when a push team gets rax early). The catapult idea seems like a good option; but still, I keep the idea that a change could be done to make ranged rax more desirable 😛

 

Btw @ElementUser, could we get another SOTM suggestion thread?

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I've got 2 nitpicks regarding balance.

The first is regarding the current iteration of the Sacrificial Stone. Personally, I see no reason to ever purchase it.
An upgrade to the Power Supply is interesting, but it's recipe costs 525g, and for that price you only get +2 to all stats, with the potential of +4 to all after a kill.
The other potential benefits include "8 seconds off your respawn timer, 50 health to nearby allies upon your death, +10% healing"
Those first 2 are planning for failure, they only impact your play when you die. The 50hp only has a chance to impact people who aren't you, after you die, if they were nearby. Furthermore 50hp and +10% healing imo are pretty much negligible even on the few heroes that have healing abilities.

All in all, I can't imagine a circumstance where this item would be a good pickup, especially for supports who are already strapped for cash. Alternatively, instead of that 525g recipe you could get a Fortified Bracer for 490g and get +6 STR +3 AGI +3 INT at all times regardless of having gotten a kill or not, and be well on your way to building Astrolabe which heals your team for a lot more, a lot more consistently, without requiring your death. Or you could get Ophelia's Quest and 4 wards, and be well on your way to a fat payout.

My second issue with balance is more bemused/sad. Why was the Engineer mine build taken away? That was one of the most entertaining things in the game.
Making your nest, getting kills, moving your nest, keeping them guessing. The range you aren't allowed to place mines within if you've already hit the limit seems almost spitefully large, it's as if whoever made that change had personally gotten engi-mined one too many times and went on a vengeful rampage to make sure that playstyle would be impossible.

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talking about pseudo RNG, can i just bring up Chronos here?
 

my issue with this hero is that most crit or evasion properties have a certain guarantueed threshold.

i just had a chronos match yesterday where i basically procced all my passives every other second giving me an immortal almost 14 minutes into the match as solo shortlane vs a sui mart (rehealed almost all of his q, winning me the lane).

now i just had one where i procced not a single passive for AGES.

is there any possibility we add a charge counter that after x charged gained they are procced automaticaly (maybe charges linger off over time) to make them just a tiny bit more reliable?

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56 minutes ago, merryhonmas said:

is there any possibility we add a charge counter that after x charged gained they are procced automaticaly (maybe charges linger off over time) to make them just a tiny bit more reliable?

Kinda like Legionnaire? I think that could be cool.
For abilities like that it's kind of balancing like, The Dream (tm) that it could proc on anything vs. the sometimes harsh reality of you getting absolutely garbage luck.

It's why I hate and never play Blacksmith. I've never had games with him where I get lucky, granted I've only ever played him a few times, but out of those times I only ever got 1 4x Fireball, and a couple 3x. For multiple entire games. To me, it's severely put me off ever playing him.

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53 minutes ago, Floofboy said:

Kinda like Legionnaire? I think that could be cool.
For abilities like that it's kind of balancing like, The Dream (tm) that it could proc on anything vs. the sometimes harsh reality of you getting absolutely garbage luck.

It's why I hate and never play Blacksmith. I've never had games with him where I get lucky, granted I've only ever played him a few times, but out of those times I only ever got 1 4x Fireball, and a couple 3x. For multiple entire games. To me, it's severely put me off ever playing him.

Blacksmith... don't even remind me.
I played one game with BS yesterday, after literally not touching that hero for 4 years, I multicasted twice during 36 minutes!
Same with Tarot, altho regarding Tarot I despise everything about that hero. The ability to deal 1.8k damage with 1 single Damage item is just a bad joke.

I am generally not a fan of those pseudo RNG abilities. They are supposed to be exciting but they just end up being frustrating, either for the player playing the pseudo RNG hero ebcause of no proccs, or for the ones facing em, ebcause of constant proccs.
Having some form of pseudo RNG is absolutely fine by me, but heroes that can in fact bounce between 0% and 100% are just way too tedious and especially difficult to face as you can not even properly calculate your actual loss/gain risk due to the mechanic.
riftshards per se are a different story as those are items you have to pay for and they require tools to become efficient.
Passive pseudo RNG abilities however (or even active ones) are just providing for additional frustration (for example the ganking level 3 legio that proccs 3 Whirls on 5 attacks and successfully secures a kill even maybe if he is REALLY NOT GOOD and missed his taunt or canceld charge or whatever else).

In a game where supposedly skill is what prevails, RNG can completely overthrow and turn all tables. And there is nothing more frustrating than to actually win in a close skilled matchup with decent teamplay on either side, but then lose only because of potential pseudo RNG impact.

There needs to be SOME form of global balancing that goes EITHER way (per and contra) so that risk on EITHER side can actually be calculated properly.
I stopped counting the amount of times an opponent Chronos with level 1 Rewind got away because of a lucky procc, vs the amount of times some random ass dude got away from me playing Tarot and being level 16 and barely ever critting at all. Or, to stick with that subject, someone getting away from me playing Chronos and not proccing maxed Curse of Ages during a long ass chase and several hits by me until they have an escape ready again or reach base/tower/mates.

I know that this is more of a rant than a productive post, but that is mostly because I am not too familar with the way this pseudo RNG is (intended to be) balanced so far and how it actually even works, so I have nothing I could suggest to improve it.
But there definitely is something that desperately needs to be done to reduce, not only, frustration factors, but also and foremost calculatability (i hope this is a word).

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1 hour ago, merryhonmas said:

Blacksmith... don't even remind me.
I played one game with BS yesterday, after literally not touching that hero for 4 years, I multicasted twice during 36 minutes!
Same with Tarot, altho regarding Tarot I despise everything about that hero. The ability to deal 1.8k damage with 1 single Damage item is just a bad joke.

I disagree regarding Tarot.
With her, it's tied to her auto attacks, which is something you do quite often and reliably for free. I've never felt like her crit's were a problem either way. Doesn't happen too much, not too little. Not to mention when you card someone, you get a flat +10% crit chance on them.

With Blacksmith, I think because you aren't always casting fireball on people, it's easier for it to feel as if you're the one getting absolutely shafted by your ult instead of the other team. Or perhaps more precisely, as if you don't have an ult at all.

Maybe his ult could be something more along the lines of risk/reward or rolling dice? Something like, when you activate it you roll dice to gain a multiplier for your abilities? If it succeeds you gain a 2x multiplier on your next Fireball or Frenzy. Once you have that though, it costs 50hp nonlethal true damage to roll again and try to get it up to a 3x, 100hp per roll to try and get it to 4x. Staff of the master could reduce the cooldown to 5 seconds.

I also like the idea of having his ult passively just let Frenzy cast to 1/2/3 other people, prioritizing yourself as one of them.

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People forget that Chaotic Flames actually does something even when you aren't multicasting:

Quote

Also decreases Fireball's cooldown by 2 / 4 / 6 seconds, and increase Mana Cost by 10 / 40 / 70, increases Flaming Hammer's AoE by 100 / 200 / 300, and decreases Frenzy's cooldown by 5 / 10 / 15 seconds.

It may feel like it is doing nothing, but that is because clicking buttons and making choice usually feels better than not.


I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Posted (edited)

Not sure about the final changes to Hag for this patch, but I really like the low CD of his SOTM for the split-push and counter-push capabilities that it allows. I think the main issue with it is the superior magic part (mostly the damage) of the spell which is already part of the basic kit of Hag. Would have really preferred to see that taken away and the rest of her kit compensated, since I'm not sure a longer CD on her SOTM ult (which seems to be 70) will make it viable.

Edited by Bersk

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