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  1. 1. You are again stuck on a deserted island...

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On 12/2/2020 at 7:36 AM, Sorais said:

Merge the servers and problem solved. After all, Zlapped is on record for saying he only learned how broken DR was after he moved to Garena.

I'm allergic to what competitive players say about HoN balance, especially if they haven't been active in the game for years anymore. The breaky/zlapped cast was littered with "I'm not sure how this works because I don't play the game anymore". A lot if not most competitive players have shit for brains balance wise. They're really good at the game, better than me, but they seriously don't know how to think balance. I've said like a year before it happened that engi/pebbs/flux dual mid is horribly overpowered and a 100% lanewinner against anything the comp scene had to offer. I said shadowblade was incredibly strong. All comp players ever did was say "lulw where are your medals" and continued to pick their shit 4 protect 1. And then in hindsight they are always ready to complain about the balance when they "discover" something new. Can we not let a not even just ex comp, but ex-player who doesn't touch the game more than twice / year his opinion put weight in the scales? Of course they only learn about something being strong when it hits them in the face, they were beyond reproach in their own mind to test anything new themselves.

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The same poll.... Oh dear.   Oh yeah, the regular Balance/Design subforum rules don't apply in this thread (but the global forum rules still do). You can chat about almost anything you want

I'd love to. I think the main frustration factor with Adrenaline was mitigated when the change to his Q cooldown occurred. He is no longer able to create large one-sided fights with a 3>2.25&g

Let's rock and roll with Adrenaline. I've suffered enough testing that previous design, time to reap the rewards. Just so it isn't lost on Discord, can we please let Adrenaline cast his W outside

On 2/12/2021 at 12:30 AM, Syllab said:

I'm allergic to what competitive players say about HoN balance, especially if they haven't been active in the game for years anymore. The breaky/zlapped cast was littered with "I'm not sure how this works because I don't play the game anymore". A lot if not most competitive players have shit for brains balance wise. They're really good at the game, better than me, but they seriously don't know how to think balance. I've said like a year before it happened that engi/pebbs/flux dual mid is horribly overpowered and a 100% lanewinner against anything the comp scene had to offer. I said shadowblade was incredibly strong. All comp players ever did was say "lulw where are your medals" and continued to pick their shit 4 protect 1. And then in hindsight they are always ready to complain about the balance when they "discover" something new. Can we not let a not even just ex comp, but ex-player who doesn't touch the game more than twice / year his opinion put weight in the scales? Of course they only learn about something being strong when it hits them in the face, they were beyond reproach in their own mind to test anything new themselves.

You are aware that 1) Zlapped said DR was horribly broken years ago, before he quit and 2) Garena HoN players have been abusing DR since forever, right?

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On 12/1/2020 at 9:49 PM, Sorais said:

Can we get a DR nerf again. The hero is incredibly frustrating given how badly he invalidates positioning. It's impossible to position safely and out of initiation range, even if you have PK, because he will always get you; while Pharaoh can do this too DR can actually escape after killing you. Plus DR bursts for a lot more than Pharaoh. It's especially nonsense when he's got a regen rune and can ulti THROUGH your team to do damage while invulnerable.

The bugger's at 57% win rate, #1 among all heroes in Garena, FWIW.

Agreed that DR is quite stronger than average

On 12/1/2020 at 10:32 PM, ElementUser said:

Are you finally at least even a little bit happy that Pebbles got "a nerf"?

 

For DR, how do you suggest we "nerf him" without removing the flavour that makes the hero unique (i.e. practically a 0 second cooldown blink gated by mana)?

 

Also, Adrenaline.

Reducing his attack speed bonus from E when casting spell. What makes him strong at the moment is his instantaneous attack speed. His burst is bit too strong even if he goes for survivability items, so DR build will always focus on early survivability and snowballing.

 

 

Also, is Zephyr ulti + sotm effect not visually correct? I get damaged even when staying outside the typhoon range.

Edited by Acnowlogia
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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/19/2021 at 9:02 PM, Syllab said:

Besides a "he said what I'm saying"-factor, what does anything zlapped has/had to say to do with garena's state of gameplay? 

He was playing on Garena for a while, if you didn't know.

One more thing (and this is directed at EU as well based on what was written the last time he pinged me): remember, we are playing on different maps. Step one to balancing for both regions at the same time is to be playing the same game.

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  • 1 month later...

Just some words regarding the recent Adrenaline changes - I must say, the hero feels absolutely amazing. I believe this is exactly the spot where he needed to be when he was first reworked.

The damage/range changes to his Q made it fair to lane against him - from my experience, he doesn't apply the "insane" pressure that he did any longer during the early 1-6 levels. However, he is still strong enough that he can hold his ground, get a good farm despite harassment from ranged heroes, and punish an enemy that has made one too many mistakes.

I'm really happy with the state that Adrenaline is at, and I don't believe that he will be changed any further in the foreseeable future, as he is in a very good balance state. I am enjoying this current form of Adrenaline much more than the previous one.

I believe he's in a good spot of a Mid-laner / Farm Duo-laner / Short Farm Semi-Carry. Semi-carry because despite his ability to flash-farm (Much like Monkey King), Adrenaline lacks Autoattack DPS scaling abilities, so in an end-game encounter of pure autoattacks, he will fall short to enemies such as Maliken, Predator, The Dark Lady, Madman (The more Hard-Carry variants).

He will have low to medium impact in the early laning phases of the game, increasing impact towards the mid-game, then stabilizing at a solid semi-carry towards the end-game.

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1 hour ago, Lunarios said:

Just some words regarding the recent Adrenaline changes - I must say, the hero feels absolutely amazing. I believe this is exactly the spot where he needed to be when he was first reworked.

The damage/range changes to his Q made it fair to lane against him - from my experience, he doesn't apply the "insane" pressure that he did any longer during the early 1-6 levels. However, he is still strong enough that he can hold his ground, get a good farm despite harassment from ranged heroes, and punish an enemy that has made one too many mistakes.

I'm really happy with the state that Adrenaline is at, and I don't believe that he will be changed any further in the foreseeable future, as he is in a very good balance state. I am enjoying this current form of Adrenaline much more than the previous one.

I believe he's in a good spot of a Mid-laner / Farm Duo-laner / Short Farm Semi-Carry. Semi-carry because despite his ability to flash-farm (Much like Monkey King), Adrenaline lacks Autoattack DPS scaling abilities, so in an end-game encounter of pure autoattacks, he will fall short to enemies such as Maliken, Predator, The Dark Lady, Madman (The more Hard-Carry variants).

He will have low to medium impact in the early laning phases of the game, increasing impact towards the mid-game, then stabilizing at a solid semi-carry towards the end-game.

Can confirm. He doesnt feel OP in several stages of the game anymore. Has fair damage and doesnt fulfill every role but has decent niches.

Would be a bummer if he gets nerfed again.

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I'm enjoying Adrenaline but I haven't had a chance to really bust him out in FoC with a proper team.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Good thing for Adrenaline getting such high regard on his rework. I hope this kind of positive receptive encourages FB to make such drastic changes for the future patch.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

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Posted (edited)
On 4/22/2021 at 6:30 AM, Lunarios said:

Just some words regarding the recent Adrenaline changes - I must say, the hero feels absolutely amazing. I believe this is exactly the spot where he needed to be when he was first reworked.

The damage/range changes to his Q made it fair to lane against him - from my experience, he doesn't apply the "insane" pressure that he did any longer during the early 1-6 levels. However, he is still strong enough that he can hold his ground, get a good farm despite harassment from ranged heroes, and punish an enemy that has made one too many mistakes.

I'm really happy with the state that Adrenaline is at, and I don't believe that he will be changed any further in the foreseeable future, as he is in a very good balance state. I am enjoying this current form of Adrenaline much more than the previous one.

I believe he's in a good spot of a Mid-laner / Farm Duo-laner / Short Farm Semi-Carry. Semi-carry because despite his ability to flash-farm (Much like Monkey King), Adrenaline lacks Autoattack DPS scaling abilities, so in an end-game encounter of pure autoattacks, he will fall short to enemies such as Maliken, Predator, The Dark Lady, Madman (The more Hard-Carry variants).

He will have low to medium impact in the early laning phases of the game, increasing impact towards the mid-game, then stabilizing at a solid semi-carry towards the end-game.

His win rate has recently dropped to 42-44% for the last 2 weeks or so, unfortunately.

 

@Lunarios: any suggestions for minor buffs to bring him back up without bringing back frustration? Frustrations I have addressed are the impact of his Q usage early game and how strong he is within the Death's Halo arena.

By "strong", I do not know if the previous frustration came from him being too hard to kill, or from his offensive capabilities being too much.

I suspect his overall performance in his ultimate is slightly too weak now, but I would like to hear thoughts from an experienced Adrenaline player.

 

Thank you in advance 🙂 I want to buff him in 4.9.3.

Edited by ElementUser
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, ElementUser said:

His win rate has recently dropped to 42-44% for the last 2 weeks or so, unfortunately.

 

@Lunarios: any suggestions for minor buffs to bring him back up without bringing back frustration? Frustrations I have addressed are the impact of his Q usage early game and how strong he is within the Death's Halo arena.

By "strong", I do not know if the previous frustration came from him being too hard to kill, or from his offensive capabilities being too much.

I suspect his overall performance in his ultimate is slightly too weak now, but I would like to hear thoughts from an experienced Adrenaline player.

 

Thank you in advance 🙂 I want to buff him in 4.9.3.

I'd love to.

I think the main frustration factor with Adrenaline was mitigated when the change to his Q cooldown occurred. He is no longer able to create large one-sided fights with a 3>2.25>1.5 second cooldown on his Q.

I think it was a mix of both, because he was able to output very massive DPS while having the survivability of a tough bruiser. That was changed.

That means that the only issue that remained after this change - in my opinion - was his one-versus-one or two-versus-two laning pressure, which was still on a high-tier level. That was also changed.

As it currently stands, I think Adrenaline's laning performance has been lowered a little bit too much. Don't get me wrong, he is still able to hold his ground and get good farm (300-400 GPM mid-lane), but he is not quite able to solo-kill anyone without aid or assistance from another ally or a tower until he has at least a Dawnbringer. So unless the enemy mid-laner is pulled by Adrenaline into the tower, or you receive an early Solstice gank, all you can pretty much do with him is deny/kill creeps.

His performance in the Ultimate is weak unless accompanied by allies up until the point where he obtains a Dawnbringer/SH, after that point, he becomes a very formidable foe.

 

I think the best way to bring him up by ~5% win-rate percentage, is to slightly buff his laning performance when in the mid-lane or a duo-long lane. Slightly, since he is still very strong early when accompanied by allies inside his Ultimate, and he is in a very good state in the mid to late-game if he manages to obtain proper farm.

I think his E and W are in a good spot and don't require any attention, and his Ultimate is also in a good spot and doesn't require attention. The main thing that I think would benefit Adrenaline greatly is changes to his Q.

The range on his Q hurt a little bit when it was rescaled from 800 to 575/650/725/800, but that's ok because I think a static 800 range was a bit too much early on.

The thing that hurt most, to me personally in the laning phase, was the damage change along with the increased mana cost to Adrenaline Q.

Let me explain this numerically, specifically addressing the breakpoints at levels 1, 3. From level 5 and onwards this problem is not as significant, and from level 7 the game moves into a different stage any-way.

I'm taking an example of a usual mid-lane scenario, with my item pick-up of 2 Lunar Tears + 2 Mana potions as my backup mana store. This constitutes as +450 extra mana backup.

All uneven numbers will be rounded up and down respectively. All numbers are based on the above item build that is intended to maximize available mana.

Pre-4.9.2 version:

Level 1: Mana available: 260 + 450. Number of Q uses: 14. Damage output from these uses: 1120.

Level 3: Mana available: 299 + 450 (Considering 0 lunar tears 0 mana potions consumed). Number of Q uses: 11 (rounded). Damage output from these uses: 1265.

Post-4.9.2 version:

Level 1: Mana: 260+450. Number of Q uses: 11 (rounded). Damage output from these uses: 715.

Level 3: Mana: 299+450. Number of Q uses: 9 (rounded). Damage output from these uses: 945.

 

This is my main concern. It's not about the DPS, but its rather about the potential total damage output Adrenaline has during his laning phase given logical starting items. I'm sure not everyone buys 2 Lunar Tears and 2 Mana potions, so the total potential damage output available to them is much lower. Since damage is directly converted into laning pressure, the total laning pressure you can apply is significantly lower than it has been before the nerf to Q mana/damage values. It is low enough that you are not able to challenge an enemy hero directly during the laning phase, but you are able to scare him enough that he won't heavily harass you.

To me personally, this means that the overall changes to Adrenaline Q in patch 4.9.2+4.9.21 constituted a ~37% nerf to his damage output at level 1, and ~25% nerf at level 3, reaching a fairly balanced breakpoint at level 5 of ~11% nerf (As you would already have a Bottle at level 5, even if the player failed the lane - increasing the available mana resource).

I think 37% and 25% nerfs to very critical levels (1 and 3) are quite heavy, and if they are changed to constitute ~10% nerf to the available damage pool I think it would bring the win-rate to where it should be for Adrenaline.

That is, changing the available damage potential from 715 to ~1000 at level 1, and from 945 to ~1140 at level 3.

Something in the ballpark of 85 damage / 60 mana cost at level 1 (Resulting in a net Total Damage of 1020), 125 damage / 80 mana cost at level 3 (Total Damage of 1125 [rounded down from 1170]).

Followed by perhaps slight buffs to the damage and nerfs to the mana at levels 5 and 7; 165dmg/100mana at level 5 and 205dmg/120 mana at level 7.

(These changes will result in a net change I'd consider as a "tweak" when compared to pre-4.9.2 values, rather than a nerf or a buff. Resulting in slightly higher damage and higher mana cost values.)

That is my opinion on the current Adrenaline state. Higher laning potential means you will be able to lower the enemy overall game presence potential, and increase your own impact via acquisition of higher tier items - items which Adrenaline needs to truly shine.

 

(*just a final note of thought, it might be strong with Nymphora/Adrenaline combos in a duo-long lane, as Nymphora can mitigate the higher mana-cost and Adrenaline simply benefits from higher damage values; but I think many combos are strong with a Nymphora support in a duo-long lane and it's not THAT big of a buff to Adrenaline's damage, so I think it's simply a very specific scenario that doesn't constitute to most general situations.)

Edited by Lunarios
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Thanks for the detailed writeup!

What I'll do is just revert the Q damage change from 4.9.2.1 and that should at least make things a little better for Adrenaline. We can always revisit more buffs next patch if he needs them.

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  • 2 weeks later...

https://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/index.php?/topic/3150-the-attack-speed-slow-on-arachnas-ulti/&do=getNewComment

Speaking of the thread I post above about Arachna, I think the tooltip on Arachna's ultimate is misleading because the attack speed slow isn't a percentage but a static number. Even her 1st ability manages to give noticeable difference on its tooltip. So, I propose to fix the tooltip.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

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I only use Detailed Tooltips as well, there were a few I saw that were wrong. If I stumble across them again I'll compile a list.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Instead of making a thread that later will be archived, it would be better if you continue the discussion about Arachna here or on HoN Official Discord @Rage_100.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

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One thing i complain about Arachna that she shouldn't be able to active her W while stunned. It's unfair, annoying, complex to deal with. Like it force us to pick physical carry to deal with her.

Otherwise i dont see anything else left to complain

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Posted (edited)

@Lunarios I looked at Adrenaline's win rate & his changes some more and gave him a few more buffs. Hopefully it's enough to bring his numbers back up!

 

I also saw your deaths as Adrenaline in Dutchownage's games on his streams a few nights ago... 😞 

Edited by ElementUser
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ElementUser said:

@Lunarios I looked at Adrenaline's win rate & his changes some more and gave him a few more buffs. Hopefully it's enough to bring his numbers back up!

 

I also saw your deaths as Adrenaline in Dutchownage's games on his streams a few nights ago... 😞 

I was a bit worried when I thought there would only be a raise in the damage values, but was happy when I saw it was in conjunction with the 5 mana reduction, which IMO will help a lot in the laning phase.

Sometimes I'm just not playing very well due to various reasons, but many times I just have the mindset of the pre-nerf Adrenaline which could solo-kill a Gladiator/Kraken in midlane, and it's hard for me to accept that it's not do-able anymore 😅 It would be better for me to accept that sometimes you just can't win a lane, and better take what you can and move on to the next stage.

Edited by Lunarios
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Damn @ElementUser. Thanks for being so quick to readjust based on community feedback (and statistics of course). I honestly can't remember a time when the communication and implementation regarding balance has been this direct and this fast. This never happened when HON had a bunch of people working on it. Love it. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Lunarios Adrenaline still seems a little underwhelming -- any thoughts after playing him this patch? He could be due for another buff.

I am planning to get a balance hotfix patch through some time in the next 1-2 weeks or so.

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