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You are again stuck on a deserted island...  

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  1. 1. You are again stuck on a deserted island...

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In keeping in the spirit of HoN, I feel like a place for people to have less formal discussion about Balance while still having a place to discuss Balance is required. Sometimes there are discussions that do not warrant a full thread with proper sources and numbers, but those posts can still be good starting points to creating that thread; I propose we revitalize Balance Dump for this purpose.

Edited by Hubaris
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I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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The same poll.... Oh dear.   Oh yeah, the regular Balance/Design subforum rules don't apply in this thread (but the global forum rules still do). You can chat about almost anything you want

In keeping in the spirit of HoN, I feel like a place for people to have less formal discussion about Balance while still having a place to discuss Balance is required. Sometimes there are discussions

Honestly Blacksmith IS the RNG. What would be his identity without it? You could do something similar to Legionnaire but with the power of a 1600 Damage Multicast on the line its a little more than ju

The same poll.... Oh dear.

 

Oh yeah, the regular Balance/Design subforum rules don't apply in this thread (but the global forum rules still do). You can chat about almost anything you want in this chat, barring obvious exceptions & content that break the global forum rules ?. Basically just use common sense & be nice.

Edited by ElementUser
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Let's say I wanted to finally have a closure with BlackSmith RNG and propose a better, more robust RNG way to handle the Multicast,

if I was to put the time to do it and submit a draft of the XML, would that be considered to be implemented ?

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Honestly Blacksmith IS the RNG. What would be his identity without it? You could do something similar to Legionnaire but with the power of a 1600 Damage Multicast on the line its a little more than just a single spin.

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I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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10 hours ago, ElementUser said:

It's still not good enough?

Well, I didn't look into the XML since about a year, so if it has been drastically changed, I can't say and will look again.

10 hours ago, Hubaris said:

Honestly Blacksmith IS the RNG. What would be his identity without it? You could do something similar to Legionnaire but with the power of a 1600 Damage Multicast on the line its a little more than just a single spin.

You misunderstood me. I LOVE RNG. I want it to make it better, not remove it.

Edited by Tartalacame
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Does anyone else dislike the binary strategy of counterwards? Will like some things changed about it, since once a counterward is planted, there is little to no strategy to counter it, and counter the counter. Would like to decrease the clearvision AoE at list in 200 radius so the battle between counter wards can have more strategy.

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Warding is an ever evolving subgame/duel in the game. I actually like it because it makes you have to think outside the box and not just strictly on the ward ledge locations. I'm keen on the idea that sometimes the suboptimal placement is actually optimal.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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6 hours ago, Hubaris said:

Warding is an ever evolving subgame/duel in the game. I actually like it because it makes you have to think outside the box and not just strictly on the ward ledge locations. I'm keen on the idea that sometimes the suboptimal placement is actually optimal.

I do feel that is the case for regular wards, but my issue is mostly with using counterwards against counterwards. There is little to none breathing room for strategy, since even if you try to put the CW in an uncommon spot, it still has to be on the AoE of the enemy CW, which means that if them want to counter your CW, they can just simply put it on the same place as before without any risk of failing, since the Clearvision AoE will reveal it anyway

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Oh I see what you mean.

So you're saying the CW should degrade over time or something? It would still have the problem with the initial CW finding things but I mean, it could be an interesting idea.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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The reason why this was done in the first place was because teams lost the Flying Courier to scout for these & counterwarding was deemed too hard because not every support hero had a vision-granting spell for high ground. Before, the Flying Courier was a free unit for the team where anyone can use it to scout high ground for wards.

 

Flying Courier is now brought back as an item (but in all honesty doesn't do much at the moment), but it still costs 200 Gold to get one right now (not free like before). We can't just give everyone free couriers though since they would just use them as scouting drones, and bringing back one team shared flying courier at the start of the game (while keeping the automated couriers) while removing this clearvision mechanic from the counterwards seems like a big step back.

 

If we remove the "ward reveal clearvision upon placement" mechanic from Revelation Ward, I don't think that will actually solve anything. If you limit it to something smaller than its initial reveal radius, it has to be of a reasonable value - but what is that value?

 

The issue here is moreso the clearvision AoE rather than the persisting AoE.

Edited by ElementUser
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Yes, I do understand the reason of the inclusion of the Clearvision component, which is way I don't think removing it is the way to go, and instead focusing in reducing the initial reveal radius as to give some room for counterplay (and also as a little incentive to use the flying couriers, without being compulsory). Maybe something between 100 to 200 reduction in the AoE?

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What happened to the Unique Magic Armor per hero? Was it just deemed non-impactful enough for the minor headache it caused for new players?

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Long story short, yes (partially). 

 

It also made strength heroes really weak. Turns out that their high hp pool is a huge factor to their performance early to mid game when magic damage is mostly at its prime.

 

Increasing magic armor on specific heroes on the other hand is something we can look into. Like those hard support heroes who are typically squishy ? ? ?

 

We could even lower magic armor a bit for the heroes that are a little too mobile and slippery if needed. But this can all come in the distant future. I'm not expecting a need or desire for this in at least 2 patches. 

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Good to know. I was explaining the idea to people and was really sad to see it gone when I was scrolling through the Herodex.

Just like move speed, I think it is something that can easily be looked at and adjusted. Thanks for the answer.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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So it should be pretty much copy and paste the previous work. Doesn't seem that hard. Now, the other issue is, is there a place where I can get the compiled changes? Do I have to look at the forum archive or something like that? Or is there a file in the HoN Folder from where I could take all the information? Would make it easier to automate it if it's something like that ?

Edited by Bersk
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12 minutes ago, Bersk said:

So it should be pretty much copy and paste the previous work. Doesn't seem that hard. Now, the other issue is, is there a place where I can get the compiled changes? Do I have to look at the forum archive or something like that? Or is there a file in the HoN Folder from where I could take all the information? Would make it easier to automate it if it's something like that ?

 

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My proposed balance changes:

 

  • Veiled Rot: Reduce cost to 50g. As of now, supply exceeds demand. The item is rarely bought in the 1650 and below bracket. And when it is, it's never on cooldown. The item should be OP — it promotes aggression and increases gamepace — and that's why it has a purchase cooldown.

 

  • Sacrificial Stone: Reduce recipe cost to 425g from 525g. The gold is almost always better invested in Blood Chalice or Astrolabe component. By the time those are built, the effectiveness of Power Supply's static numbers are already reduced.

 

  • Amulet of Exile: Give an extra +3 damage. The item is almost never bought in itself — it's always purchased as part of a recipe. The current pool of cheap items — Blood Chalice, Refreshing Ornament,  Power Supply, Bracer, Grave Locket — completely dominate other cheap stat items like Amulet of Exile / Soulscream Ring. A small damage buff gives them a few extra usecases. 
Edited by Hannity
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  • Blight Stones: Increase cost to 120g, give 4 charges. With free courier, making Blight Stones less granular will counter the effectiveness of constantly flying out regen. This is easy to see if Blight Stones were to cost 30g and gave one charge. This idea is already implemented in Health Potion's cooldown.

 

  • Marchers: Reduce cost to 400g. As a general philosophy, items that are essential should be cheap because it accelerates gamepace. We've seen this idea manifested in DotA 2.
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2 hours ago, Hannity said:

My proposed balance changes:

 

  • Veiled Rot: Reduce cost to 50g. As of now, supply exceeds demand. The item is rarely bought in the 1650 and below bracket. And when it is, it's never on cooldown. The item should be OP — it promotes aggression and increases gamepace — and that's why it has a purchase cooldown.

 

  • Sacrificial Stone: Reduce recipe cost to 425g from 525g. The gold is almost always better invested in Blood Chalice or Astrolabe component. By the time those are built, the effectiveness of Power Supply's static numbers are already reduced.

 

  • Amulet of Exile: Give an extra +3 damage. The item is almost never bought in itself — it's always purchased as part of a recipe. The current pool of cheap items — Blood Chalice, Refreshing Ornament,  Power Supply, Bracer, Grave Locket — completely dominate other cheap stat items like Amulet of Exile / Soulscream Ring. A small damage buff gives them a few extra usecases. 

I totally agree with you on amulet of exile/bracer etc, as well as Sac stone. But Veiled Rot is already OP.    It will never be valued in low brackets because it counters the very thing nobody cares about- wards and vision.  This item already wins games by itself in ganks and late game teamfights, you could probably INCREASE the cost and it would still be balanced/OP in higher ranks. 

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  • Veiled Rot: Reduce cost to 50g. As of now, supply exceeds demand. The item is rarely bought in the 1650 and below bracket. And when it is, it's never on cooldown. The item should be OP — it promotes aggression and increases gamepace — and that's why it has a purchase cooldown.
     
  • Sacrificial Stone: Reduce recipe cost to 425g from 525g. The gold is almost always better invested in Blood Chalice or Astrolabe component. By the time those are built, the effectiveness of Power Supply's static numbers are already reduced.
     
  • Amulet of Exile: Give an extra +3 damage. The item is almost never bought in itself — it's always purchased as part of a recipe. The current pool of cheap items — Blood Chalice, Refreshing Ornament,  Power Supply, Bracer, Grave Locket — completely dominate other cheap stat items like Amulet of Exile / Soulscream Ring. A small damage buff gives them a few extra usecases. 
     
  • Blight Stones: Increase cost to 120g, give 4 charges. With free courier, making Blight Stones less granular will counter the effectiveness of constantly flying out regen. This is easy to see if Blight Stones were to cost 30g and gave one charge. This idea is already implemented in Health Potion's cooldown.
     
  • Marchers: Reduce cost to 400g. As a general philosophy, items that are essential should be cheap because it accelerates gamepace. We've seen this idea manifested in DotA 2.

+1

Edited by shelf
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6 hours ago, Hannity said:

My proposed balance changes:

 

  • Veiled Rot: Reduce cost to 50g. As of now, supply exceeds demand. The item is rarely bought in the 1650 and below bracket. And when it is, it's never on cooldown. The item should be OP — it promotes aggression and increases gamepace — and that's why it has a purchase cooldown.

 

  • Sacrificial Stone: Reduce recipe cost to 425g from 525g. The gold is almost always better invested in Blood Chalice or Astrolabe component. By the time those are built, the effectiveness of Power Supply's static numbers are already reduced.

 

  • Amulet of Exile: Give an extra +3 damage. The item is almost never bought in itself — it's always purchased as part of a recipe. The current pool of cheap items — Blood Chalice, Refreshing Ornament,  Power Supply, Bracer, Grave Locket — completely dominate other cheap stat items like Amulet of Exile / Soulscream Ring. A small damage buff gives them a few extra usecases. 

I agree with Sac stone and amulet of exile change, disagree with veiled rot. I think veiled rot being more like a smoke would be much better. Would encourage team cohesion and activity.

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