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Opinion: Kane staff effect should be his normal ulti


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I think when you make it his normal ult then he would be seriously fun to play. also a viable mid hero with snowball potential

He would be kind of like legion commander.

 

At this point getting a staff would be kind of a waste, since kane doesn't farm very fast and he won't kill as many people later when he does get staff

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I agree, it feels too late to start snowballing when you've eventually farmed a staff. Also the effect is comparatively weak to other effects, allies are unlikely to boost you as there's no immediate benefit (e.g. cast range increase, cooldown decrease or duration increase).

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What about making it retro-active with charge gain/loss affecting Kane only? 

If he wins duel, he gains a permanent charge. If he loses duel, he loses a charge (can't go negative ofc ? )

Once staffed, gains bonus attack damage proportional to the number of charges.

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uhm... not worth it...

let me just remind you that this item has the potential to grant kane more attackdamage than a savage mace, or certain other attackdamage items...

i absolutely dislike it from a personal point of view and it's potential to be abused as a griefing tool, but nevertheless, if you are playing properly and coordinate with your team, you can set up a kane with 4k hp and tons of armor, but still 500 atk damage.

i am failing to see where that is not good just because it does not grant an immedeate effect as most other staffs do. as a matter of fact, this one is better than 90% of others, as eventually the ones with a flat bonus will fall off toward lategame as hp and deflection scale higher. whereas this one continoues to apply additional bonuses to you unless you play poorly or actually get outplayed, in which both scenarios you deserve to be punished.
still not a friend of the design but regardless... you should consider above points.

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On 6/9/2020 at 3:41 PM, merryhonmas said:

i am failing to see where that is not good just because it does not grant an immedeate effect as most other staffs do. 

This is literally the reason why it isn't good.

For 4200 you can (almost) fully upgrade a Shieldbreaker, house 55 damage and -Armor and the -Armor is worth a variable amount depending on the armor already.  For 4200 you can build most of a Frostwolf, get a 200 damage AoE, slows, survivability. For 4200 you can buy Portal Key and Sol's Bulwark. You could almost be done Daemonic, and the attack speed is well worth more than the damage early on (and again free Assist gold from Bulwark and the support it provides).

Yes, eventually it will outdamage all other items, but that is some indeterminate point in time. There's no guarantee that you will be able to Duel someone every minute or so. There's no guarantee you'll even be able to win if you sologank to do it. Not only that, Kane with just Staff and nothing else barely does anything. I know he gets Anguish stacks to drain damage but honestly I don't think its enough.

Imagine if you had Pollywog, but instead of just adding 4 or whatever wards, it added 1 ward every time you took out a tower. This sounds absolutely great on paper because the end result is higher (there are 11 towers on the map), but for most of the game you're not getting value out of it. The break even point is just too late.

We can ignore the 6th level upgrade but if you get it by 11, you can net 12 damage a kill. You need to kill 5 targets (60 damage) to approach a Shieldbreaker (and again this isn't even taking into account the -Armor which amplifies your entire team's damage). 5 Targets with the Staff. That means there's at least a 5 minute windup tied to an already long build. This doesn't take into account that when you're halfway done the Staff, you're already done SB 1 and possibly SB 2.

Lets imagine a perfect scenario where Kane has 400 GPM somehow and forgoes all items to rush Staff. It will take him 10 minutes just to get Staff and then at least another 5 minutes of cooldown cycles to break even. Can you imagine not having Steams or Ghosts on him? Lets bump it up another 3 minutes for Boots. That's 18 minutes, In this wonderful imaginary scenario can you imagine the impact of blowing up a 3 armor squishy with SB? Or rushing something ridiculous like Thunderclaw?

The Staff Upgrade doesn't do enough to justify its existence sadly. If it dropped Waylay's Cooldown by 2-3 seconds as well, you can probably justify it but by itself it does nothing for too long.

(Note: This is FoC, in MW do whatever you want because you constantly are fighting).

Edited by Hubaris
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I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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As i see it, the staff's purpose isn't to increase Kane's carry or dps potential, but a buff to his supportive/tank/lock down role. Yes for pure dps purposes it's better to buy any other items that give immediate effects, but with staff he gains:

- All stats and max hp, in particular 390 hp. That's a substantial amount that would let Kane soak in cc and damage from the enemies as he locks down their carry and can still out last them, drawing attention away from your carries.

- Good build up for a non-priority farming role, he gets to upgrade at 1000~1200 gold a piece, this allows him to constantly take risks and fight. Which he should if he's a non-core wanting to control the map creating space for your carries.

- Master's legacy, further accentuating his non-core role, in which he buffs up his actual carry while snowballing on his own.

 

Design wise, i see this as a fine edition and on paper serves its purpose well, as a non-mainstream non-mandatory upgrade like any other damage items. Balance wise though it might be underwhelming, i haven't tried this out yet.

Edited by rezziedahl
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On 6/10/2020 at 6:41 AM, Shoy said:

I agree it should be his normal effect, sounds like a really cool idea.

If he loses he give dmg to the person, if he wins he takes that dmg from them.

I don´t agree with it. Kane wont always ulti someone with intention to get a kill for himself. Sometimes you just ulti someone to disrupt a channeling or just keep someone locked down for a period of time. If thats the case you might ulti someone knowing you will die and giving a bonus to enemy for say, saving a teammate isnt exactly good. 

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On 6/15/2020 at 2:53 AM, ScrubFactory said:

I don´t agree with it. Kane wont always ulti someone with intention to get a kill for himself. Sometimes you just ulti someone to disrupt a channeling or just keep someone locked down for a period of time. If thats the case you might ulti someone knowing you will die and giving a bonus to enemy for say, saving a teammate isnt exactly good. 

That's part of legion commander in dota2 and why in a way her ult is more balanced than Kane's. LC can't just at random for fun duel anyone whenever she wants because there are consequences. Kane can. Having to make this choice gives more depth to the player's decisionmaking and gameplay which I definitely think is a positive.

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