Jump to content

Welcome to the Heroes of Newerth forums

The forums have received a complete makeover. Click the button below to read more about it.
Read more
NubbyMcNub

What would you like to see addressed in Midwars?

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Imagine someone suggesting an instant win item that costs 20k gold.  The only way to stop the other team buying it would be if your whole team bought another item.  Really stupid idea, right?  But that's more or less the gameplay equivalent of backdooring ie with 20-30k farm, you can go BD and be unstoppable unless that team carries TP stones.

I would allow backdooring after Transmutenstein is attacked but it is otherwise invariably an anti-climax.  It also consistently triggers an argument.

There already is backdoor protection  but it's not as effective in Midwars as it is in Caldavar. In Midwars, carries on the losing side can beat it at 25-30 mins.  There are also 1.5 lanes which aren't used much and thus you're unlikely to be spotted.

Midwars is all about having thrilling teamfights.  But to counter backdooring, a team must:

a) remember to ward the approach lanes.
b) take a boring minute to wander over to the lanes, probably missing a teamfight.
c) have enough heroes carrying TP to get back in time.

This all tedious and relies on multiple people getting it right.  Nobody does this at 1600 unless I do it & nag them to carry TP.  Backdooring also requires zero skill.

I propose increasing the bonus armor on backdoor protection such that backdooring is only possible with an ultra-farmed carry (ie 35k gold farm) or a Doombringer.  Attacking Transmutenstein would lower backdoor protection to its normal level for 1 minute.

Edited by NubbyMcNub

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some very quick and not very well thought-out ideas:

- Snotter boss should go die in a fire. Having mechanics that makes it hard to kill simply means you cannot kill Snotter boss in an even game, and then what's the point of Snotter boss?
- Merrick's Rune is a nice idea but it's currently barely worth anything. It's effectively an extra last hit every 30s and doesn't stop people from turtling. How about something like 1) increase the gold given depending on how much time has passed since the last hero kill, and 2) make it invulnerable so it cannot be denied.
- In the same way, to stop AoE nukes defending creep waves, it might be a good idea to increase the magic armor on creeps. I don't know how well this will play out in practice, however (as I said not every well thought-out).
- Or add a glyph to MW, similar to the fortification glyph in FoC, except this one turns your creeps invulnerable for some time. You can dive their tower easier then. Again, it's not very well thought-out.
- For bans, two bans per player is enough. If someone doesn't ban a hero during the banning phase, then the hero shouldn't be banned. In other words number of banned heroes should be from 0 to 20. Right now it's always 20.
- Possibly desirable as well: blind bans, so that many players can ban the same hero. Again the function would be to decrease the number of heroes banned. 10 is too few, but 20 is too many, with some heroes pretty much never surviving the ban phase too often (i.e. no chance to use a freshly-bought avatar).
- Shared ancient creep camp for the heroes that use it. Could be another way to break stalls as well. 
- Concede vote should be allowed sooner. Sometimes comebacks just aren't possible. E.g. recently I played a game against a 5q, and lineups were Pearl Chipper FA Puppet Witch Slayer vs. Prisoner Flint Martyr Riftwalker Ellonia. It was pretty much over from the pick phase, and by 7 minutes we were ready to AFK (the score was something like 11-0), but cannot concede yet. Bring the concede vote timer down to 5 minutes, hell eliminate the timer entirely, as long as all five players must concede. Why force people to play if they don't want to?
- Some kind of backdoor protection in the very late game would be good. Wards only get you so far, because counterwards is a thing, and so is Veiled Rot.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I appreciate variation provided by Snotter boss but should be reverted in 2 weeks.

Don't think mid-late game should be about runes.   Support making Merrick's rune undeniable.

I came up with a hard-to-program suggestion years ago.  Towers run out of ammo.  A gremlin comes out to refill them before they run out. Gremlin can be killed, creating big explosion that can kill creeps so camper teams have to defend gremlin.

I find 20 bans good but would prefer balancing effort on Midwars.

Ancient creeps as a straight-up replacement presumably easy to program and worth a try.

Would support 7 min concede but, since it needs 5/5 votes,  hardly any team concedes at 10 mins (which was my suggested reduction).

BD protection exists but doesn't account for Midwars scaling, , lack of inherent vision in lanes, being about fun etc.

Edited by NubbyMcNub

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

- Merrick's Rune is a nice idea but it's currently barely worth anything. It's effectively an extra last hit every 30s and doesn't stop people from turtling. How about something like 1) increase the gold given depending on how much time has passed since the last hero kill, and 2) make it invulnerable so it cannot be denied.

You fail to take into account the fact that bounty rune also refills a bottle, denying it like a regular rune is a legitimate strategy against a strong zoning team (who are using bottles to supplement regen). The main function of the bounty rune is the regen, the bonus gold is just that, a bonus.

 

Quote

- For bans, two bans per player is enough. If someone doesn't ban a hero during the banning phase, then the hero shouldn't be banned. In other words number of banned heroes should be from 0 to 20. Right now it's always 20.
- Possibly desirable as well: blind bans, so that many players can ban the same hero. Again the function would be to decrease the number of heroes banned. 10 is too few, but 20 is too many, with some heroes pretty much never surviving the ban phase too often (i.e. no chance to use a freshly-bought avatar).

As for bans, right now it is not ALWAYS 20, the first 10 bans are open, the second 10 are blind. This means that regardless of who's ban it is you will be able to see the first 10 banned heroes, the second 10 bans will not be visible until the timer expires and double bans can occur, personally I have seen instances of 5 bans used on the same hero. Now for people who play in 5 locks that's not as big a problem as they will most likely be communicating their bans however in a random pub game it is not uncommon to see duplicate bans in most games.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I'd suggest is bringing back stat gains like regular caldavar when you kill whoever the biggest guy is in the pit. Right now snotter boss or transmutenstein are hardly ever contested because it's simply not worth the risk, it's easier to chill and try to wait out the runes. Plus these bonuses give you and endgame option, for example to replace boots or provide casters with better scaling. The current bonuses is really just backdoor bait since you are hasted and invisible.

I've never seen so much action and play around the pit than when the old midwars map with regular kongor and no uphill was in place.

I agree on the blind bans not having any use in midwars especially.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I play a lot of mid wars and I’ve been thinking a lot about this topic.  After much reflection I’ve pinpointed the reason some matches are less fun than others.

Before I get into that, I’d like to share three facts about my credentials that will provide extra weight to my unsolicited opinion.

First, I was playing HON since beta(tm).  I’ve been doing this longer than any of you so my onion is more valuable.  The number of matches is irrelevant.

Second, I am good at math.  This will come into play later.

Lastly, until recently, I haven’t lost a mid wars match in over 4 years.

Now that I have your attention, here was my approach:  I played 100 matches and recorded whether my team won or lost and whether or not I had “fun”.  (It is with noting that my personal observations from the small sample size of my own matches are 100% relevant and can be extrapolated to represent the entire population.)

I could post a chart or graph but charts and graphs are for losers.  Instead, here’s the results.

Of the matches I won, 94% were fun.

Of the matches I lost, only 33.34% (repeating) were fun.

Not to bore you with the hard math, but a simple Spearman Correlation test confirms there is a strong correlation between winning and fun.  The foregone conclusion is that in order to make mid wars more fun, I need to win more often.

I’ll admit that in some matches my opponents played better than I did.  Being exceptionally humble, I can accept that.  A corollary to the previous conclusion is that playing better leads to more fun.  (I’m so very, very humble.)

These reflections and hard facts have led me to the takeaways I present to you now.  These proposals will statistically and invariably make mid wars more fun, improving the overall health of the game and embiggen the player base.

1.  To players out there, realize you are partly in control of your own destiny and largely determine the funness (funnity? funosity?) of your own player experience.  Basically, get good.

2.  To FrostBurn, you too can contribute.  Please increase the overall win rate of all players combined from 50% to a rate more conducive to having fun.  I suggest 60% or 65% to start, and then reevaluate over time.

 

Edited by MacroHard
  • Haha 3

Toxicity breeds toxicity.  Break the cycle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think MacroHard hit the nail on its head. I'm already at like 99% winrate in my midwars games so I don't need to get gooder anymore, but I'd still like my winrate to be buffed to 99.5% thanks frostburn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These are what I think the issues are personally:

- Blind Bans
I really don't like bans being blind personally.  If 10 total bans is too few, perhaps both entire teams could have 2 bans any member can use after their first? Total of 14?

Boss
Personally, I don't like the boss adding doombringers into the game. Midwars usually involves a lot of deaths on boths sides, the odds you'll lose it are far too high for it to be worth it imo. However, I'm also not super sold on Zorgath and Transmutenstein as the boss. Power Rune is only a buff for the next teamfight that only 1 player gets, True Sight tokens are nice though.
I think the current iteration of Kong could be great, although there's also the potential for it to be too snowbally.

QoL
- The base teleport station could be faster? idk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly? The Removal of the game mode entirely so its forces players back into FoC, the way the game was ment to be played. Dying repeatedly gets reptitive, idk how some people can main that kind of gameplay. With the community already being as small as it is, the majority probably are in midwars, which is probably why it seems to take forever to get a game in ranked even alone where as midwars is consistently instant half the time, in my case at least.

  • Haha 2
  • Sad 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Chianti said:

Honestly? The Removal of the game mode entirely so its forces players back into FoC, the way the game was ment to be played. Dying repeatedly gets reptitive, idk how some people can main that kind of gameplay. With the community already being as small as it is, the majority probably are in midwars, which is probably why it seems to take forever to get a game in ranked even alone where as midwars is consistently instant half the time, in my case at least.

This I disagree with.
MW is a fun, casual, faster-paced mode where you have more teamfights occurring more frequently, it scales faster, failure is more forgiving and you have a much better chance of getting geared up. It's a fun sort of, showcase of the game's action and hero ability interactions.

FoC ranked matchmaking is much more strategic and tactical. A slower but longer and more intense burn, the actual real game, the full experience. Much more grounded and serious.

Most of the time you'll be playing FoC, but sometimes you don't have time for a full game or you don't really have the energy to take it that seriously, or maybe you just lost a game and are disheartened and annoyed at your team so you go to midwars to have a much quicker fun time that's harder for your team to screw up and doesn't require playing smart and farming.

Imo both absolutely have their place in the game.

Edited by Floofboy
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Chianti said:

Honestly? The Removal of the game mode entirely so its forces players back into FoC, the way the game was ment to be played. Dying repeatedly gets reptitive, idk how some people can main that kind of gameplay. With the community already being as small as it is, the majority probably are in midwars, which is probably why it seems to take forever to get a game in ranked even alone where as midwars is consistently instant half the time, in my case at least.

If MW disappears most of its players will just stop, they won't go back to FoC.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Change bosses more often and i would really love if blitz mode ,capture the flag, dev wars, any of other mods return 🙂

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/1/2020 at 1:29 PM, Loli`pot said:

Change bosses more often and i would really love if blitz mode ,capture the flag, dev wars, any of other mods return 🙂

Different game types increase queue times significantly.  Might be OK to do if hyped for one weekend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I've gone through some comments here & have done what I could for Mid Wars in the next patch.

 

As a general rule of thumb, we won't be doing any hero-specific or ability-specific balance in Mid Wars because of the arguments presented in the past (e.g. burden of knowledge & inconsistency for players who play both modes, as well as difficult to maintain & difficult for both designers & players alike to quickly find out if something is changed for Mid Wars or not for a hero/ability).

 

Item-specific changes in Mid Wars are an exception because picking them up in Mid Wars is a choice that is open to everyone regardless of the hero they play (whereas picking a hero is a deliberate choice & only nerfs that one hero, rather than nerfing the item more or less uniformly for most heroes/heroes of a certain archetype).

 

Hero-specific bans for Mid Wars also won't be a thing. If you really want a hero banned, you can use a ban on that hero.

Edited by ElementUser
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

- Nerf Symbol of Rage - I don't care if Bola can counter it, sometimes people don't understand they have to buy Bola; and if the enemy has 3 Symbol's.... again, try to make 3 Bola's;

- Illusions should do 0 damage, unless they are from a Hero's skill, NOT rune or item;

- Artilery's range is way to high;

Edited by Mefer
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

  In the other thread about anxients in Midwars, @`Everyone wrote about something I wanted to address, and it's more relevant here.

On 7/7/2020 at 6:12 PM, `Everyone said:
  • Without 2, it can be used as a boring way of preventing comebacks. Eg. push wave, farm ancients. Will take 20 minutes to get a big enough advantage to end. 20 boring minutes.

Legitimate concern but I want to talk about camping, snowballing and game duration.

Comeback potential is seen as a good thing because snowballing is often excessive -- but it makes games longer, whether directly, or because players won't concede because they believe there is comeback potential.

Proper, balanced Midwars games last 35+ mins.  I personally don't mind it, but I suspect everyone would prefer them a bit shorter.

Quote

The rest of my post isn't related to the ancient camp, but is simply another suggestion I have to prevent turtling.

Nerf T1 towers but make them provide regen, or magic armor if you are within range of an ally tower.

This allows tower diving, while maintaining the advantage you get within the tower. The difference being you have to hold your tower line to prevent it from falling.

I like this idea but hero regen would be a massive nerf to harassment, Thunderbringer etc.  Phys & magic armour might be doable.

Also, the period between T1 going down and being able to destroy T2 and base is problematic.  If the advancing team is at all aggressive, they'll often give up too many kills and let the defending team catch up.  If they're not aggressive, what else is there to do?  Ancients will help but it's boring.  Kong is often too difficult. Winning in Midwars shouldn't involve taking the boring option.

If anything, I'd be inclined to boost T1's health to keep teams fighting 5v5 at the river.  But making T2 and the base easier to destroy would make games shorter and early game more important.  Does T2 even need to be in the game?

But I do agree with discouraging camping T1 so how about reducing its damage to make diving easier?

Quote

Move the T2 towers closer to the shrine. This will allow more aggressive positioning by whoever is pushing, while still being punishable as there are many was to flank if properly set up. I feel like where the T2 towers currently are is simply too good of a defensive position, and in high midwars, in 'tryhard' (coordinated, not pub) games the T1 is almost never pushed before 3-4 items, and if it is, the lane equilibirum is still at mid. There is 0 incentive to go to push the T2 early on, and is considered a throw. 

I agree with your intent here but I'm baffled as to where you want the tower to be, or how that reduces camping.

Anyway we agree a lot here but what does this mean?

Comeback ability should be 'nerfed' but how much?  It could be nerfed a lot if teams didn't snowball excessively.  This could shorten games by 8 mins or so.

So if we... 
a) Made T2 and base easier to destroy (except by backdooring).
b) Slightly nerfed kill rewards some more and boosted auto gpm & creep gold...

... then games would be shorter, winning teams won't be penalised for winning and camping would be reduced.  Comebacks would still be possible but less dependent on camping and carries.

Edited by NubbyMcNub

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 6/7/2020 at 6:12 AM, ElementUser said:

That's where you're wrong. Heroes themselves behave the same between modes & will stay that way to reduce burden of knowledge and differences in performance when transitioning between game modes. 

Maybe u could add a timer as creps works, being strongers every some minutes, apply this on heroes could be so hard to rewrite all the heroes for each game mode. Then the solution could be a global buff for the 10 players.

For example :

+10stats, +5%damage.... Similarly than u did with kongor buffs. 

This is easier way I think. Could be more complicated if ur team or players in 1000 distance units earn global buff if they kill ancients (the new ancients that you are thinking to place on midwars). 

Edited by lllllollllll

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, lllllollllll said:

Maybe u could add a timer as creps works, being strongers every some minutes, apply this on heroes could be so hard to rewrite all the heroes for each game mode. Then the solution could be a global buff for the 10 players.

For example :

+10stats, +5%damage.... Similarly than u did with kongor buffs. 

This is easier way I think. Could be more complicated if ur team or players in 1000 distance units earn global buff if they kill ancients (the new ancients that you are thinking to place on midwars). 

It's nice idea man!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/10/2020 at 1:24 AM, lllllollllll said:

Maybe u could add a timer as creps works, being strongers every some minutes, apply this on heroes could be so hard to rewrite all the heroes for each game mode. Then the solution could be a global buff for the 10 players.

For example :

+10stats, +5%damage.... Similarly than u did with kongor buffs. 

This is easier way I think. Could be more complicated if ur team or players in 1000 distance units earn global buff if they kill ancients (the new ancients that you are thinking to place on midwars). 

I'm struggling to follow what you're saying here.

I think Supercreeps need buffing but only when backdooring is fixed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Remove Artillery,  Martyr, Vindicator, Ichor, Pearl, Deadlift, & Armadon from Midwars. Every game with those characters (as teammates or enemies) is not funny!

Edited by CuysauruS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Removing midwar so ppl will return to caldavar? Best joke ever. 

Next patch is going to make some changes around STALL...  but in my opinion there is no stall on mw. Destroying T1 depends on heroes abilities mostly... destroying T2 depends on strategy, players skills... it's something more than skill spam... and If someone experience stall it means that team is bad and ppl don't know how to push together and coordinate attacks. Good teams keep pressure all the time so stall is only mindset of players not issue of mw. 

Sometimes I even take advantage of difference between T1 and T2. When my team is loosing T1 because enemy has advantage on river (Devo, pris, whatever) I ask my team to give up T1 instantly and play chicken strategy because we can be more efficient in our jungle... and use best early bonus - quick respawn. In most cases it works pretty well... and overconfident enemy team is taking this bite. 

So there is no need to change map for stall, because on midwar it doesn't exist. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/22/2020 at 6:13 PM, Chianti said:

Honestly? The Removal of the game mode entirely so its forces players back into FoC, the way the game was ment to be played. Dying repeatedly gets reptitive, idk how some people can main that kind of gameplay. With the community already being as small as it is, the majority probably are in midwars, which is probably why it seems to take forever to get a game in ranked even alone where as midwars is consistently instant half the time, in my case at least.

This needed to happen many years ago if it was going to do anything. 
If you remove Midwars from the game now the people who play it will just quit, they likely wont start playing FoC.
They play Midwars because they couldnt handle FoC in the first place. 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Handle FoC? There is strange legitimacy of the claim that FoC players and FoC is some kind superior over midwar. From my perspective midwar should be main mode and it is future of moba. I play mw because only hon gives this kind of experience. What we have in caldavar? Toxicity, frustration... and caldavar as pvp game mode where a lot of mechanics are around players vs environment. This is most bizarre thing to me. How ppl can play multiplayer game and farm creeps. They race to kill more creeps.... and in most cases ppl go trying farm jungle, fail... and that's it. There is no more frustrating thing. Caldavar is about playing vs computer and occasionally vs players which is completely stupid for me. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/16/2020 at 5:39 AM, VaYha said:

Removing midwar so ppl will return to caldavar? Best joke ever. 

Next patch is going to make some changes around STALL...  but in my opinion there is no stall on mw. Destroying T1 depends on heroes abilities mostly... destroying T2 depends on strategy, players skills... it's something more than skill spam... and If someone experience stall it means that team is bad and ppl don't know how to push together and coordinate attacks. Good teams keep pressure all the time so stall is only mindset of players not issue of mw. 

Sometimes I even take advantage of difference between T1 and T2. When my team is loosing T1 because enemy has advantage on river (Devo, pris, whatever) I ask my team to give up T1 instantly and play chicken strategy because we can be more efficient in our jungle... and use best early bonus - quick respawn. In most cases it works pretty well... and overconfident enemy team is taking this bite. 

So there is no need to change map for stall, because on midwar it doesn't exist. 

Pity we lost the old forums, or I'd already have screenshots showing what stall is like. Hell, I could even play some games and show you what stall is like. If you want to "keep up the pressure" or whatever then sure, keep coming into my tower. 

"chicken strategy because we can be more efficient in our jungle" is silly because that describes stalling quite well. Playing on your side is usually advantageous than playing in the middle, and you are intentionally giving up a tower so you can play on your side. That's not being smart, that's gamemanship. It's especially annoying when the team that's winning does this. If one team is losing seriously then yeah, but if the game is somewhat even a balancing mechanic such that the creeps meet at the middle would be nice.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to see what stall is... for 6500 midwar games haven't notice anything that could be described like that. I like that midwar is not just stupid skillspam mod like devowars or bridgewar where we had loop: port spam skills die port spam skills die repeat.  On midwar to get T2 team needs play together so there is small strategic factor for winning. There is also will/psychological factor. Frustration works on both sides and it should be calculated as part of game. Some games I won because I was trying to overcome and manage emotions in my team (I like this surprise and happiness when they figure out that chicken strategy works). On the other side...  This is why sometimes I ask my team to do not push too early when we have advantage on river, so we will not empower enemy. 

What I understand... stall, as you mentioned is trolling game more than play... but it's not midwar problem. You can defeat enemy physically or psychologically but map has nothing to it because map itself is fine and there is no need to distract players by creep camps. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...