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What would you like to see addressed in Midwars?


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Last I heard, almost as many people play Midwars as Caldavar. 

What changes would Midwars players like to see?  Most suggestions should go in the Suggestions forum but feel free to briefly mention well thought-out ones, particularly in relation to commonly-perceived issues.

 ElementUser suggested starting a thread on problems perceived in Midwars.  We had a messy one in the old forums full of random suggestions.  Let's try getting consensus on the problems first.

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I'd like to see more of the funny old quirks that would last a patch or so. The neutral creeps running through middle was a personal favourite and the snowball boss was pretty fun too.

Handle FoC? There is strange legitimacy of the claim that FoC players and FoC is some kind superior over midwar. From my perspective midwar should be main mode and it is future of moba. I play mw beca

100% true. In FoC u need to wait and fight the boredom and must figure out how not to fall into sleep. In Midwars you need to know the heroes and the skillset and react quickly and with brai

Posted (edited)

Because of hero imbalance?  Doesn't fix those banned heroes coming up in Single Draft, but it's an easy fix if wanted.

One of the two biggest problems for me is being compelled to finish miserable games.

For some reason, a lot of players insist on finishing lost games and it only takes 1 or 2 of them on the losing team to compel everyone else to. Midwars is supposed to be fun.  You play it out if you want, but I shouldn't have to.
But, Leavers ruin a game that isn't already ruined.  There has to be a compromise.

One easy partial fix: remakes should require universal approval of one team + one from other team.  Every DC/Leave should remove 1 from the # of votes needed.  Ideally, one less for anyone AFK > 1 min too (and ignore their votes).  Currently, 6 votes are required regardless.

(Edited) For a fuller fix:

  • - Allow both sides to vote.  If any of the winning team votes to allow the other team to CC, that counts as one.  It's hard to predict the psychology of this but it's probably the easiest fix to program in.
  • - A 4 v 1 vote starts a four minute timer.  If another concede vote after those four minutes is 4 v 1, then the game is conceded.  This gives you 4 minutes to show the game is worth playing.  The AFK algorithm should kick in after 2 mins so that this isn't a way to influence the second vote.  The MMR penalty for Leavers could then be reduced to 5 mins (but anyone given 'permission' to Leave is unaffected).

Hero balancing would help either way.  ElementUser has stated that such balancing would need to be very professional ie accountable, committed etc whilst not causing too much work for FB.

Edited by NubbyMcNub
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Posted (edited)

quick thoughts:

bring back zorgath and transmutenstein

nerf artillery and flint range, not a real problem in high mmr but they are almost always banned

dev staff boost could be disabled

2 bans/player is enough but show all bans so same hero doesn't get banned more than once

disable repicking to prevent people from "banning a third hero" (repicking last second)

 

Edited by SupaPowaXXL
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1.) More bans definitely. Also I'm not certain why the bans are blind. It seems to serve little purpose.

2.) We should have glyph on structures back. Maybe with lower duration or effectiveness if it needs to be so, but we need a glyph. Not having glyph diminishes depth and allows brainless multi healer push comps that work against the spirit of the game mode.

3.) Klanx bd:ing is lame. Please let us have a ward spot behind the base so we can catch him.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, PantyBandit` said:

2.) We should have glyph on structures back. Maybe with lower duration or effectiveness if it needs to be so, but we need a glyph. Not having glyph diminishes depth and allows brainless multi healer push comps that work against the spirit of the game mode.

Are you talking a team-triggerable ability being able to protect structures?  I vaguely recall such a thing ~10 years ago.

My other big issue with Midwars is this:  games are generally lost not won. 

You can get away with dying a lot in Caldavar if eg your carry is doing better than theirs.  But in Midwars, you can't get away with it.  Dying in 5v5 teamfights means you're feeding a) their carry and b) every enemy player who can kill yours.
We want to feel like we can make a difference in games by getting or setting up kills.  But if the opposition is fed, it's often impossible to come off best in a teamfight.

This is a problem which is super-hard to fix. FB adjusted kill rewards in MW ~3 years ago.  But it only mitigated ~1/3 of the problem.  I've suggested lowering rewards for killing someone with a negative kdr but at some point it would change the meta because they can roam more freely.

Under 1700, some players don't even try to avoid dying and deny that their many deaths contributed to the loss.  Net GPM would make it more obvious ie gold scored against you subtracted in the final scoreboard.

Edited by NubbyMcNub
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I'd like to see more of the funny old quirks that would last a patch or so. The neutral creeps running through middle was a personal favourite and the snowball boss was pretty fun too.

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4 minutes ago, IS1NIGHTMARE said:

Since there are boosted heroes for MW, Like calamity, why not buff a few less used heroes? like Salomon

That's where you're wrong. Heroes themselves behave the same between modes & will stay that way to reduce burden of knowledge and differences in performance when transitioning between game modes. 

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6 hours ago, IS1NIGHTMARE said:

Since there are boosted heroes for MW, Like calamity, why not buff a few less used heroes? like Salomon

Can personally say that while Salomon is under appreciated in midwars he is an absolute force to be reckoned with if played correctly.

 

I would like to see some balance down around the neutral camp as right now it heavily favours the hellbourne team. (read non-jungle heroes can jungle it with little risk and gain huge advantages)

In regards to the current patch i would also like to see the location of the bounty rune spawn changed and the regularity of it lowered as well, currently this also heavily favours the hellbourne.

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Salomon is a dogpoo in Caldavar as well. This hero should get another rework. His ulti is basically useless and under performing. I did prefer his original design when he was build as an magic initiator with his ulti doing damage  depending on the distance 

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7 hours ago, xort said:

Can personally say that while Salomon is under appreciated in midwars he is an absolute force to be reckoned with if played correctly.

 

I would like to see some balance down around the neutral camp as right now it heavily favours the hellbourne team. (read non-jungle heroes can jungle it with little risk and gain huge advantages)

In regards to the current patch i would also like to see the location of the bounty rune spawn changed and the regularity of it lowered as well, currently this also heavily favours the hellbourne.

I believe EU has said that the Bounty Rune will have its direction switched in a coming patch to address this inequality.

On 6/4/2020 at 11:04 AM, ElementUser said:

I already planned to do the spawn interval change to 1 min & also changing the flow direction of the rune to be reversed (since some players mentioned HB has an obvious advantage) for the hotfix patch (since we need to fix Balphagore anyway).

From THIS thread.

6 hours ago, Shoy said:

Salomon is a dogpoo in Caldavar as well. This hero should get another rework. His ulti is basically useless and under performing. I did prefer his original design when he was build as an magic initiator with his ulti doing damage  depending on the distance 

Original Design? He used to be a magic pusher with Bramble's Trail, a Heal/Nuke wave, a Shield that built up like Nomad's Wanderer, and his weird out of place Transformation Ultimate. What a patchwork design.

But yes I know what you mean when you say 'original', I'm being cheeky.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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1. Only give people one ban. We see all the time that the same heroes are banned, some of them, like dev, are very fun to play. 

2. I agree with people feeding and that is what is destorying the fun in a game a lot. I suggest a big banner in the loading screen which says: if you die once every minute, you are reducing the fun your teammates have and you should try to die less.

3. Dont change the voting system, its good as it is now. Some people just have a defeitist mentallity and dont understand that you can get back in the game even when you are far behind early. 

 

Side note: Today I (accidentally) joined a normal game mode instead of a midwars game. I guess it was more then 7 years since I played Calvadar last. Glad to say it confirmed my thought that Midwars is the best game mode to play. How tediously slow does that game progress. 

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51 minutes ago, oldschoolsil said:

3. Dont change the voting system, its good as it is now. Some people just have a defeitist mentallity and dont understand that you can get back in the game even when you are far behind early.

This a 100%. There is comeback potential in midwars. Though as a player, I wish I had more options to gain back momentum other than turtling and waiting the other team to overextend and/or misplay.

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Posted (edited)

I wonder if giving generally considered weaker heroes like salomon, more starting gold would help their winrate? Could be interesting, I don't know how easy that would be to add in/balance. It doesn't have to be starting gold, it could be a free starting item e.g. power supply, so the they can get boots/stat items faster.

I don't like the idea of adding more bans this doesn't solve anything, as the power level of heroes are varied so that banning the top tier ones every game will just make the 2nd tier the new top tier, etc, etc.

Also the AFK mark timer should be reduced for midwars, as most midwar games are shorter than FoC games.

Also please please please bring back mmr <3.

Edited by TehNubZar
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, TehNubZar said:

Also please please please bring back mmr <3.

I dont care if mmr is brought back, but what i dont want to see, is someone chatting at me and offending me coz of im hero pick, and my item choices. No competitive midwards exist ?

-> Imagine being a new player and want to try a new hero, mechanics and whatsoever. Obviously  at FoC u will get hard flamed ; and imagine picking it at midwars to learn him,  have fun and have everyone flaming at you and threatening to report you ? .. the reason i stopped playing midwars was solely coz of the people that had the delusion midwards is a competitive fixture and u have to try hard.

Something more. Im  seek reading forums and reddit regarding this matter ; full of people just raging and flaming devs, without the proper education to ask for something in a proper manner. Its like literally animals let out of their cages. And i saw that @ElementUser said that mmr will return. So on what decision was this based? on the 10 people raging at forums and reddit? .. Coz we are all aware shown mmr promotes competitiveness, something midwars is not meant for. Something that was quoted many times by devs.

 

So let me be the elephant in the room and ask you. Why do u want mmr back? 
Do u seek a competitive Midwars? Then there is a proper way to ask it. Dunno why every single Midwars player is hiding behind their fingers, and side stepping to that.


Also this thread is actually a suggestions thread. So it does not belong here

 

 

Edited by doctornik
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@doctornik Poeple have fun in different ways. Some like to chill and play mw, some like to take it more serious. It is not my place to judge the way you enjoy the game, I wish you do the same with me.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying the "unintended" way to play midwars.

And to your point about midwars mmr. Personally, mmr makes me make different calls when picking and buying items. If my team has low average mmr, I can safely assume that selfless, or what some might call "tryhard", items like astro/ring/barrier are not on the list of first buys (first astro wins). I have the choice to pick a hero accordingly to build these items in the game.

Also if the enemy team has low average mmr, some picks are likely better. Low mmr in midwars doesn't correlate always with skill but with preferred items to get. Low mmr carries are less likely to buy shrunken head for example. Also hook heroes are more powerful agains 1600 players than 1800+.

On the other hand in a game full of similar rated players I can get a quality game where I can diverge from the astro + greaves + barrier + insert-situational-team-item -build since I know other players will share the load on the important team items and team hero picks.

Now that we don't see mmr of other players, through official means that is, it removes some of the depth and increases frustrations, since I can't correctly gauge team's willingness to play "unintended" vs play for fun.

 

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, PantyBandit` said:

@doctornik Poeple have fun in different ways. Some like to chill and play mw, some like to take it more serious. It is not my place to judge the way you enjoy the game, I wish you do the same with me.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying the "unintended" way to play midwars.

And to your point about midwars mmr. Personally, mmr makes me make different calls when picking and buying items. If my team has low average mmr, I can safely assume that selfless, or what some might call "tryhard", items like astro/ring/barrier are not on the list of first buys (first astro wins). I have the choice to pick a hero accordingly to build these items in the game.

Also if the enemy team has low average mmr, some picks are likely better. Low mmr in midwars doesn't correlate always with skill but with preferred items to get. Low mmr carries are less likely to buy shrunken head for example. Also hook heroes are more powerful agains 1600 players than 1800+.

On the other hand in a game full of similar rated players I can get a quality game where I can diverge from the astro + greaves + barrier + insert-situational-team-item -build since I know other players will share the load on the important team items and team hero picks.

Now that we don't see mmr of other players, through official means that is, it removes some of the depth and increases frustrations, since I can't correctly gauge team's willingness to play "unintended" vs play for fun.

 

-First of all , nice answer , i like that kind of responses.
-Second, some questions
a)what happens if im stack at 1700- 1800 mmr midwars?. How im gonna get my chill game? Shall i log into another account ?
b)What happens if im a support main at FoC and i want to play a bit of DPS heroes. I think everyone will want that. And i want to queue into midwars, and instead of feeling free, and relaxed, and enjoying my game, i get flamed all game around and threatened to be reported?

c) What happenes if a new player at HoN , wants to try out a few heroes, so midwars is the mode to go? 
Imagine queing, and being put with 1 -2 highlish rated players together, and against them a 3 man queue try harding.  With the constant pressure  in that game, the assured flame and threats ,he will feel horrible or fed up, so he will not join midwars again to try things out.  So what options is left? practise mode/ caldavar.
Practise mode is outdated, bots are just bad, nothing to earn there. Also Caldavar isnt the best place atm to``try things`` especially if you are new.  


When i tried some games of LoL at first , i was supporting. I think everyone is doing it.  So a new player will always feel more comfortable supporting,till he adjusts to the game. So if that player cant really try out any other roles what will eventually happen to that player?  Bad game experience-> out


* ofc u can counter argue that he ofc can go mid, or carry . Well if he has the character and wants to stick to HoN , dunno the reason, maybe his friends play the game, he  wll do it. Grind through all the loses, flame ,threats,game after game, and get good. 


I am a guy who was an FPS gamer till 2011. I joined MoBas with no backgroud experience. I started playing only support heroes( maybe 70% voodoo jester) for a good bunch of 6 months or more .But i wouldnt be still in this game if i couldnt enjoy the variety this game offers and try more heroes. I have played all the heroes in a good extend, and i know every hero relatively well atm. What gave me that option was midwars. I would try heroes, check mechanics, check builts, adapt to them.  ( Ok a combination of Zlapped Khezu educationals , and watching Twich streams helped also,to be fair).

 

Note: I think u are wrong at the part u talked about the rating, visible MMR brings out competitiveness all rank around.  1600s  also try hard and some of them take midwars relatively seriously as they want to grind up
 

 

Edited by doctornik
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59 minutes ago, doctornik said:

-First of all , nice answer , i like that kind of responses.
-Second, some questions
a)what happens if im stack at 1700- 1800 mmr midwars?. How im gonna get my chill game? Shall i log into another account ?
b)What happens if im a support main at FoC and i want to play a bit of DPS heroes. I think everyone will want that. And i want to queue into midwars, and instead of feeling free, and relaxed, and enjoying my game, i get flamed all game around and threatened to be reported?

c) What happenes if a new player at HoN , wants to try out a few heroes, so midwars is the mode to go? 
Imagine queing, and being put with 1 -2 highlish rated players together, and against them a 3 man queue try harding.  With the constant pressure  in that game, the assured flame and threats ,he will feel horrible or fed up, so he will not join midwars again to try things out.  So what options is left? practise mode/ caldavar.
Practise mode is outdated, bots are just bad, nothing to earn there. Also Caldavar isnt the best place atm to``try things`` especially if you are new.  


When i tried some games of LoL at first , i was supporting. I think everyone is doing it.  So a new player will always feel more comfortable supporting,till he adjusts to the game. So if that player cant really try out any other roles what will eventually happen to that player?  Bad game experience-> out


* ofc u can counter argue that he ofc can go mid, or carry . Well if he has the character and wants to stick to HoN , dunno the reason, maybe his friends play the game, he  wll do it. Grind through all the loses, flame ,threats,game after game, and get good. 


I am a guy who was an FPS gamer till 2011. I joined MoBas with no backgroud experience. I started playing only support heroes( maybe 70% voodoo jester) for a good bunch of 6 months or more .But i wouldnt be still in this game if i couldnt enjoy the variety this game offers and try more heroes. I have played all the heroes in a good extend, and i know every hero relatively well atm. What gave me that option was midwars. I would try heroes, check mechanics, check builts, adapt to them.  ( Ok a combination of Zlapped Khezu educationals , and watching Twich streams helped also,to be fair).

 

Note: I think u are wrong at the part u talked about the rating, visible MMR brings out competitiveness all rank around.  1600s  also try hard and some of them take midwars relatively seriously as they want to grind up
 

 

There is a fundemental flaw in all your arguments: you see midwars as a stepping stone to Calvader. Thats not how it works, people play ONLY midwars, cause its more fun and actionpacked. You can view it as the invention of the first MOBA: we were all playing a stupid mod of warcraft 3, and see where that got us: hooked to a completly new game mode.

In addition to the good argument from Party Bandit: I usually play around the same hours and meet the same players in the game. Its fun to see if they are still up there at 1900, or have fallen of for some reason. I installed the mod exactly for that reason, much better. 

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The Soccer mode from a few years back got its own ladder on the hon client my friend, are you going to argue that that mode was competitive?  If you're getting text/verbally abused ingame you should mute the players and report them if they cross any lines. I don't see why a few bad eggs should ruin it for everyone.

Also mmr is just a number, we're all human and we all make mistakes. It's ultimately a team game, and solo carrying games is far harder to do than 5+ years ago. I believe this to be because of the introduction of many new armour items such as ultors/madmage/ffp, and also players just wising up to the fact you can just sheep that one good player on the other team every fight.

Also you've heavily derailed this discussion, please don't ignore the suggestions I made in the main bulk of my original comment,

- Thanks

Edited by TehNubZar
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Posted (edited)

Hello

I have 6500 midwars played. I love midwars and I play only this mod. First of all THIS TOPIC IS DANGEROUS, and taking actions based on random suggestions and random decisions of one man would destroy this mode as it has been done many times in the past: e.g. stupid change map on bridgewars because of suggestion of some "champion of the world" in midwars, unrepresentative pole about map change or few months of applied trebuchets which were killing ppl randomly because of some thai holidays (every holidays in Europe stays for few days max). Damage taken by midwars was obvious, but after all, we have returned to more or less best version of midwar! ... that's why I want to say once againthank you Frost Burn (especially ElementUser) for listening people. From my perspective Frost Burn listens ppl on forum - and this is why I ask you (visitors) to consider seriously what you suggest about midwar because me and a lot of ppl will suffer if decisions will be bad. We must be aware that 90% of community of midwars players do not join forum to read and post suggestions and changes in this mod - why? because if mod works, none complain and none is looking for changes. There will be always few ppl who do not play midwar regulary, join forum and answer hot topics, especially if they have occasion to complain. That's why I suggest do not change the mod and do not make mistakes from past.

but...  if there will be real will to improve midwar - here is what I think.

Overall

Midwar is more attractive and less toxic than caldavar, and I will stick to suggestion that this is future of moba. We don't need creeps, jungling etc. We can get instant teamfight which is more satisfying. This is tremendous change and I think midwar should be improved and balanced in the future. Midwar needs to be loved and tweaked carefully. I think midwar is underrated gem. 

Gameplay

Unhiding mmr - very god decision. We can adjust hero pick due to other players skills/mmr. Game is more serious (less quits) and spicy. Perhaps mmr spread inside brackets is too wide - there are teams mixed with 1900-1400 for example but I understand that this mod is consider as fun and we have not huge player base...  in future I would suggest lower mmr spread. 

Personally I would like to return to leveling heroes from lvl 1 and bring back this dragon boss which was giving gold. It was very funny to go on lvl 1 and fight for this boss treasure from beginning of the game. Anyway trying to kill each other on lvl 1 is funny even on river. 

Heroes

Heroes do not require skill balance except those that benefit from +kills and +assists. Perhaps little nerf would be good for Tarot, Flint, Arti or Snail or improving for example War Beast - but what I've noticed "heroes" do not win games on high mmr brackets but players do. "OP" heroes can be outcarried by wise game, wise supporting, combos and crowd control abilities. Higher brackets play less popular heroes than typical range caries.

There was for a short time not skill balance but attribute balance for midwars - and I think it was very good idea. Less popular heroes had better stats+, more cancerous heroes like flint had stats-. It was working I think. Considering midwar as different mod I don't buy argument that there should be no differences between heroes for different mods - because it brings mess. It doesn't.   

Items         

Changing some items for midwar are in most cases best for game experience. Thank you lord for goddess icon balance or barbed armor... but firstly I would balance symbol of rage - preventing this item to be use by ranged. Why? One range with shrunken can kill entire enemy team with symbol. This item is cancerous more than heroes that benefit -tarot or moa.   

Good things

I wouldn't change map - river and towers are in good distance. Dimensions of map are accurate. If FB considers change map - please ask them to do it as different  mod.   

 

 

 

 

Edited by VaYha
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Posted (edited)
On 6/7/2020 at 10:22 PM, TehNubZar said:

I wonder if giving generally considered weaker heroes like salomon, more starting gold would help their winrate?

Balancing Midwars by starting gold is a suggestion I've been putting forwards for years.  Frostburn briefly went down the path of balancing by stats and stat growth.  This made quite a big difference but I think it was reverted when the new map was reverted, @ElementUser?

Balancing is long term time investment and one that can be outsourced to the community.  Balance is so far out of whack that I'd trust almost anyone to make some improvement.  As I mentioned earlier, ElementUser has also said the balancing has to be very professional ie accountable, committed etc whilst not causing too much work for FB.
 

Quote

Also please please please bring back mmr <3.

I don't get why.  Everyone who wants to see everyone else's MMR can use the mod.

Edited by NubbyMcNub
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On 6/7/2020 at 8:25 PM, PantyBandit` said:

There is comeback potential in midwars.

Maybe one in 6 games and if you want to play ultra-competitively, I'm not trying to stop you.  However, you are saying you have the autocratic right to override the votes of the 4 other people and force them to something they don't want to do... in a supposedly fun mode.

It's actually worse that that.  You may well have rational judgement.  But it's inevitably the most delusionally-optimistic and/or sociopathic player who most wants to drag out a miserable game.

TehNubZar's suggestion to reduce the AFK timer is interesting.  Why does it have to be > than 1 or 2 minutes?

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11 minutes ago, NubbyMcNub said:

Maybe one in 6 games and if you want to play ultra-competitively, I'm not trying to stop you.  However, you are saying you have the autocratic right to override the votes of the 4 other people and force them to something they don't want to do... in a supposedly fun mode.

It's actually worse that that.  You may well have rational judgement.  But it's inevitably the most delusionally-optimistic and/or sociopathic player who most wants to drag out a miserable game.

That is not at all what I'm saying. And to call people sociopathic for playing a game out? Wow. I would consider trying to salvage a game from a losing position as a team effort a significantly more noble pursuit than giving in. But maybe I am as delusional as they come.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, PantyBandit` said:

That is not at all what I'm saying.

It's the inevitable consequence of keeping the current system.

To put it an overly polite way, what % chance of winning is worth forcing four others to play out a miserable game?

For me, it's like 20%.  And I'm frequently forced to play games that have 0-1% chance of winning, or maybe 20% if one of them DC's -- but that's not a proper win so what's the point?
 

Quote

I would consider trying to salvage a game from a losing position as a team effort a significantly more noble pursuit than giving in.

That's a more than valid opinion.  The question is whether you get to force it on 4 other people and then force them to play.

Edited by NubbyMcNub
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