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Sand Wraith needs Buffs


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Posted (edited)

Yeah, imo Sand is kinda a problem hero with an amazing mechanic. His W addition was a real cool one, but i still see him very rare near to never. I think the Hero has 2 big weaknesses compared to other Agi Carry heroes, which resolves in the other carries getting picked over him.

1. (early) Killpower:

I feel like every other Agicarry is better in the early as Sand is. Chronos / TDL /MB can Jump when your support hitted the enemy low, Swift just does brutal DMG, Madman does amazing dmg by himself and can sneak easy into opponents. Sand on the other hand can use his Qspell which is a fine thing, but damn, i feel like he is still way to slow. Often the enemies just run into the tower and you simply don't do enough damage until the fight is transitioning into a chase szenario, which resolves into tower dives. That means Sand has harder times to kill in early as the heroes above, which resolves in less gold, less farm, less exp etc.

2. Survivability:

Sand dies super easy compared to every other Agi Melee Carry. He can't jump away like the Chronos / TDL / MB Trio, can't go Magic Immune like Swift or Invis like a Madman or Scout. On Ganks or simply rushes on him he can do 3 things: Q and run in the trees, hoping to not get stunned, do the Illus and hope enemies are stupid or Ult away, which most of the time simply resolves in you getting killed by another Hero of the enemy team. All 3 options are lackluster compared to the other agi carries.  I feel like Sand needs Tankitems more then any other Agicarry, which makes his Downsites to big imo.

Conclusion:
Sure, Sand is nowhere to be a bad hero. He got some cool strenghes above some other carries (being able to AFK farm while your team wants to do something and then simply Ult globally into the Fight), being a pretty good harasser by himself by just sending the Illus with the Q spell on their Suicide / Supp etc. But overall, does this really balance his big weaknesses compared to the other Agi carries? I honestly don't think so.

What Sand needs is better ways to escape Ganks and better ways to consistant killing enemies early. Sure when he is fully farmed he is one of the best (if not the best) Agicarry in the game, but this rarely to never happens. That's why you most of the time see the other carries above picked over him.

 

Maybe someone who agrees with me got some Ideas for Changes. I got some in mind, but I'm not fully convinced with them.

 

Edited by cobaye
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Sand wraith is the hardest carry in the game, alongside Chronos. Early game has killing potential. A free geometrs at all time, thus dispell abiilty. Advantages of global presence. Escape through terrain walking. And 6 slot SW is almost a guaranteed GG. imho he is fine. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, cobaye said:

Maybe someone who agrees with me got some Ideas for Changes. I got some in mind, but I'm not fully convinced with them.

Feel free to post your idea about the change. If you allow me suggest the change, I'll give Enkindle (3rd ability) a Manifest active (ultimate sub-ability). Also, I'd suggest Dessert's Curse (first ability) summons illusion on hitting first enemy hero. I believe those suggestion could solve one of the problem you mentioned. Thoughts?

Edit: The ultimate could keep the sub-ability besides those changes I suggested. (though, I personally say it shouldn't).

Edited by datfizh
Edit for the sake of editing

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

 

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A massive part that the OP misses is that Sand Wraith has the ability to never stop farming once he gets his Ultimate. He can farm up until the instant that the fight begins and then fight at full efficiency.

I was worried when I read the Sand Wraith rework but every game I play, you're on a clock. Once Arcane Bomb ceases to autokill illusions, you are on the path to losing.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, doctornik said:

Sand wraith is the hardest carry in the game, alongside Chronos. Early game has killing potential. A free geometrs at all time, thus dispell abiilty. Advantages of global presence. Escape through terrain walking. And 6 slot SW is almost a guaranteed GG. imho he is fine. 

I mentioned all those points in the Startpost and brought arguments against them and why they are lackluster compared to other carries. As said, there is a reason why he is less picked as all the other Agi Melee Heroes, despite the fact, he can actually carry harder then most of them. He just dies so super easy on ganks, it's dumb. Try to Gank a MB or Chronos as Midder and it's super hard and you have to time perfect, so they dont Blink out. Sand can just run away and will be caught and killed 90% more often. There is 0 Skill involved on ganking a Sand. Rightclick him as Midder and he will fall. I feel like even make Q Spell giving Treewalk instant (not having the Animation) and a little Speedboost at the start of the spell, could already improve the Hero by alot. The Q spell is overall way to laggy imo.

 

@Hubaris

I mentioned his Ability to always farm and Blink into fights in the Conclusion. Without it, he would be the by far worst carry in the entire game and that's the only thing making him viable at the moment. 

But the Arcane Bomb thing i totally forgot. That makes the Hero even more lackluster compared to the other Agi Melee Carries and just backs my point more, that he could need some small buffs.

 

@datfizh

As mentioned above, giving his Q Spell instant Treewalk and a like 1-2 Sec Speedboost on Cast even when not walking on Sand, would be a good addition to him and change his escape game alot. He still would be worse in escaping as the other Melee Agi Carries, but for that he got the Ult Farm thing. So yeah, literally make his Q Spell Cast time to Zero.

Another thing i could think of is, removing the Treewalk from Q entirely and making the E an active Spell, giving Movement Speedboost + Treewalk for a very little amount of Mana (like 20, and reducing Q Spells Manacost to 100). Sounds like an amazing addition to me for the Hero and would also help with the "killing in early" Part.

 

 

 

Edited by cobaye
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Someone talk about sand wraith. So i like to join the conversation. I prefer like old sand wraith than new sand wraith but if new sand wraith got buff too in next patch its also ok. In early game sand wraith really hard to kill since hero got reworks skill. Its like need more damage too for playing with the illusion. And hero now so soft from the base armor and base strength. When hero vs combo stuner like midas and magmus in lane it make hero fast die too. Actually u cant predict/guess when enemy use their skill for combo 

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Sand Wraith is one of the strongest heroes in the game at the moment. Free geometer's bane, global map presence, thunderclaw proccing from illusions, you name it. The hero does it all - can kill people alone, can farm, cancels out PK's with its ultimate etc. The hero also has a strength gain of +2.5 per level, which is the highest for any (carry) agility hero, making it fairly tanky in later stages of the game. If anything, Sand Wraith should be nerfed.

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I think what SW really hurts is the the agressive dual laning meta, also affecting heroes like Chronos or Magebane. Picking SW is basically a lost short lane and you risk losing at the picking screen. Even carries with better laning presence like Puppet Master, TDL or Archer are facing troubles against the tryhard combos (Succu+Prisoner, Rev+Blacksmith, Magmus+Pyro) appearing these days. Generally, I agree that movement speed inflation helped to further destroy his laning presence, same as Offlane Pull. You can simply outrun him. SW needs a long track to chase and autohit someone down. Despite that, I really would like to see Dissipate (old E) back. The skill made the hero unique and was replaced with a boring attack speed buff. Ceterum Censeo, I think the hero is still strong when free farming so great care should applied to any balancing approach. 

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4 hours ago, gillesberg said:

Sand Wraith is one of the strongest heroes in the game at the moment. Free geometer's bane, global map presence, thunderclaw proccing from illusions, you name it. The hero does it all - can kill people alone, can farm, cancels out PK's with its ultimate etc. The hero also has a strength gain of +2.5 per level, which is the highest for any (carry) agility hero, making it fairly tanky in later stages of the game. If anything, Sand Wraith should be nerfed.

Its not 100% geomater. Geomater can dispell enemy skill state (poison, dps) but his 2nd skill only for farm and kill (when have damage) and cant dispell enemy skill state. His skill 2 can avoid cast enemy skill but need good predict too. In early game if sand wraith vs 3 or 2 with combo stuner it also not easy for avoid or farm in save lane.

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I agree sand is under performing at the moment and not enjoyable to play. His Illusions are quite frustrating to play with and against it. Hero feel very clunky for an agility carry.

I like the idea of how the illusions attack, but for me having Geo + W + Ulti creates a massive chaos, and ruins the experience

I'd love to see change to his passive and W spells. Maybe instead of spawning a two illusions for certain amount of time you can control, make his attacks spawn an illusion attacks on the same target (something like Forsaken Archer passive) each time he lands a hit.

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If anything the only thing I would like to see on the hero is a QoL Buff where you can activate E and target a location or player to have all of your Illusions go there but not SW.

Generally its too frantic to really micro these things midfight if you need to disengage.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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  • 4 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

The hero is generally fine, maybe some more speed on the Q & an ability usage similar to Xemplar's charge ability for illusions to follow (or some other mechanic that unifies the illusions) to make the hero a little more active is all that is needed (if at all). His numbers look okay now & he doesn't need a change at this time, but it can be considered later.

Edited by ElementUser
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Posted (edited)

Only issues I have with Sand Wraith personally is that
a) from a players perspective the hero is quite weak early until he gets his core items
b) from an opponents perspective the hero becomes literally impossible to control one he has his core items.

I'm gonna be honest with you I don't think that hero needs ANY balance changes whatsoever, has to sacrifice early game for lategame superiority, either accept that or also nerf his lategame presence if you buff his early game presence.
What I could get behind is a tiny tradeoff tweak to make him slightly less of a unconvenience early game (aka less of a free harass target) but also less of a lategame one-hero-steamroll-team-army (his Q combined with illusions makes it impossible to determine which one is the real one and to target the real one unless he is severely outmatched skillwise and can't properly control his hero and illusions for diversion). Let's keep in mind that Adrenaline's Death Halo was changed to create Ember-Shards instead of Illusions for that particular reason, as it concealed the real one. Even tho that if you payed attention you could distinguish them from one another or track him. Whereas Sw stacking 6 illus ontop of himself is an entirely different story and if he has SH aoe won't affect him much either. aside the fact that a good SW circumvents opponents CC or melts them before they can react before he commits his illusions.

Just my oppinion but I really don#t see why that hero would need increased early game presence with as brutal lategame presence as he currently has.
On equal farm (gold and xp) and mechanical skill share on both teams, SW should still come out ontop toward the later stages of a match and his global presence ontop of rendering terrain and targetability invalid already is a benefit that can not be neglected when granting him a better early game presence.

 

What i DEFINITELY could get behind is a slight buff to his core manapool!
Because THAT is just a joke as it currently is AND it would ever so SLIGHTLY increase his laning presence too without actually throwing more rocks onto his opponents ?

Edited by MerryHONmas
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4 hours ago, MerryHONmas said:

Only issues I have with Sand Wraith personally is that
a) from a players perspective the hero is quite weak early until he gets his core items
b) from an opponents perspective the hero becomes literally impossible to control one he has his core items.

I'm gonna be honest with you I don't think that hero needs ANY balance changes whatsoever, has to sacrifice early game for lategame superiority, either accept that or also nerf his lategame presence if you buff his early game presence.
What I could get behind is a tiny tradeoff tweak to make him slightly less of a unconvenience early game (aka less of a free harass target) but also less of a lategame one-hero-steamroll-team-army (his Q combined with illusions makes it impossible to determine which one is the real one and to target the real one unless he is severely outmatched skillwise and can't properly control his hero and illusions for diversion). Let's keep in mind that Adrenaline's Death Halo was changed to create Ember-Shards instead of Illusions for that particular reason, as it concealed the real one. Even tho that if you payed attention you could distinguish them from one another or track him. Whereas Sw stacking 6 illus ontop of himself is an entirely different story and if he has SH aoe won't affect him much either. aside the fact that a good SW circumvents opponents CC or melts them before they can react before he commits his illusions.

Just my oppinion but I really don#t see why that hero would need increased early game presence with as brutal lategame presence as he currently has.
On equal farm (gold and xp) and mechanical skill share on both teams, SW should still come out ontop toward the later stages of a match and his global presence ontop of rendering terrain and targetability invalid already is a benefit that can not be neglected when granting him a better early game presence.

 

What i DEFINITELY could get behind is a slight buff to his core manapool!
Because THAT is just a joke as it currently is AND it would ever so SLIGHTLY increase his laning presence too without actually throwing more rocks onto his opponents ?

Sand wraith should be a sand wraith. Classic hero with true strike damage skill (deserted) and % damage reduce and reflect to enemy in radius (disipate) ??

 

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Regarding SW, maybe make E active doubling the attack speed on use and adjusting the numbers accordingly? It will at least make the hero less boring.

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Whilst change can be good I don't think for the case of SW that it was.
I felt like it was already unique and had its niche.
The change made me never again have it picked not because that it's weak but I really dislike its state.
It's like phantom lancer with illuspam that with its global/terrainwalk is even more annoying.

Usually some oddball pick it up and granted it does not have the best early-mid but can hold the game hostage with turtling tactics.
It just feels like a disservice to all the gamers that have to deal with the massive lag caused by all the illus/effects.
Also to add 3rd as raw aspd to make it even more hectic it feels like the best-.troll-universe.
In terms of balance I think that it's a bit over the top.

It's not made to be engaging and fun but for it to linger in for that very lategame to keep the game disappointing on all levels.
Hey at least that one SW player had fun.
The best thing would be to have SW reverted.

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