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Patch 4.8.4 discussion thread


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1 minute ago, fattythrow said:

Its not a problem, its a play style.

Like most of people chose Runed Cleaver as first item while playing a melee carry.

Preference is for one player, problem is when it is rampant everywhere. Spellshards are rampant.

They always used to upgrade like Rifts, so I don't think its a massive issue.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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I only play for midwars mmr. My life now has no meaning.

Seriously!?!? Bring back MMR in MIDWARS please. Such a lame change.

You got me. Obviously I have 0 knowledge on hero models ?

Problem with spellshards was that it is the best item on basically any caster. Doesn't have to be pyro, I've seen people go spellshards on heroes like Aluna who has 1 spell that deals magic dmg. 2 days ago I've seen it on Monkey King ? . It just not a fair item.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Hubaris said:

Preference is for one player, problem is when it is rampant everywhere. Spellshards are rampant.

They always used to upgrade like Rifts, so I don't think its a massive issue.

Yes, i agreed.

But its still to expensive compare to the old one.

More 1225 gold is too much.

More 600 - 800 gold at Level 3 is acceptable.

Edited by fattythrow
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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Diabetis said:

Problem with spellshards was that it is the best item on basically any caster. Doesn't have to be pyro, I've seen people go spellshards on heroes like Aluna who has 1 spell that deals magic dmg. 2 days ago I've seen it on Monkey King ? . It just not a fair item.

It's not a good item for MK bro.

I agreed to nerf the item as well.

But more 1225 gold is way too much.

More 600 - 800 gold at Level 3 is acceptable.

Edited by fattythrow
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One issue with the perspective you guys are looking at is that it's the amount of gold required to make the item as good as it was before. It was too good before.

 

Keep in mind that if you only have 2150 Gold (as opposed to 2575), you get the benefits of the item earlier & upgrading the item isn't as big of a leap per upgrade. There's a benefit to getting the item completed earlier as that means you reap its benefits earlier, which can propel you to farm the rest of the item faster. There is also the option of just reaping the base benefits without upgrading the item to completion, etc.

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Posted (edited)

Love Orb/Grave Locket nerf. I hated how I was forced to build it every game.

Love Plated Greaves nerf.

Overall good patch. Excited to see how it shakes out. Thank you balance team!

Edited by Hannity
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One thing I forgot earlier is the mechanics on Nitro's new Q ability.

I have a sense of impending dread that this might turn out to be a real clusterfuck ability. he-he.

But no seriously, I fear that this is gonna turn her into a "I win 1v1 and 1v2 lanes by making sure you can't get anywhere near creeps and also block of your path of escape" ability.
I haven't yet seen or abused it in action but wouldn't it have been wiser to Give her Bush's old passive (that split the attack into a cone of damage behind the target) on her [E] slot, while moving both other abilities up by one slot each?
I'm not sure that in case this turns out as broken as I imagine it, waiting another 6 months for it to be balanced again will entirely ruin TMM FoC AND MIDWARS!

When comparing this ability to Bombadiers passive I am genuinely shocked at the sheer damage utility/output difference these come along with.

I know they are entirely different mechanically but I remember when boom dust took a VERY hard hit because it dealing 100 bonus damage on 2 attacks when maxed early was too strong, with a long cooldown to reacquire all charges. now seing this i wonder if that was forgotten...

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I like everything about the new patch.  I'm really pleased to see that Elementuser has noticed that tons of carry heroes are going plated greaves and/or astrolabe because of how insanely cheap and efficient they are to buy.  They definitely needed a nerf.  I prefer seeing supports prioritize these items anyways.

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Posted (edited)

Wall of Text for Heroes and Staff Upgrades Section of Patchnotes

Spoiler

Staff Changes

Balphagore

I think the change is fairly good for Balphagore as it gives him  a lot more threat on his ultimate; which plays into his kill him fast or suffer theme. Silence in a large AoE as well as the nasty damage it provides is still limited by the charges it gains so as a whole its fairly balanced. Good stats, I can see myself getting this.

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Hellbringer

Massive difference but also makes more Malphai vulnerable earlier.

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Kane

I’m not sure what to say about Kane Staff as its one of the few that can actively hurt your team. I’ll be watching this one closely in the future but it is hard to justify buying it when Shieldbreaker exists... With Master’s Legacy it might be a lot stronger, I feel like it’s fairly swingy so its hard to tell on paper.

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Klanx

There was no world where Staff on Klanx was fine before, as it completely neuters entire lineups. There’s a difference between counterpicking and autolosing due to an item selection so I think this is a good compromise to the Staff upgrade. It is now much more vulnerable to Purge which helps, so I think overall its fine.

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Thunderbringer

I like this change, creates some area control which Thunderbinger lacks. Adds some unique utility to the hero so its great for me.

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Wretched Hag

Die Hag. When the standard build doesn’t involve Nullstone rushing you know there’s a little problem. It still allows you to blast out waves and split push (as waves spawn every 60s) but makes it a little more costly to do so and still be able to gank while moving lane to lane. Overall I like it.

 

Hero Changes

Amun-Ra

Not a massive change but Ra should be punished for JUST stacking health as he has no mana to spend anyway (outside of the weird cost on his Ultimate). I feel like he could go even lower personally.

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Andromeda

Good changes. Andromeda is already one of the strongest heroes in the game with all of the buffs she’s received over the years. Cooldown seems mostly irrelevant but the cast range change is a massive hit to her power. She needs to position a lot better now and proper warding can shut her down in advance.

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Apex

No real opinion on it, he could do with a little more damage but his ‘everything’ kit makes it a rough spot to balance.

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Arachna

I like how they kept Orb-Walking. Mana costs should help with Arachna as well as the damage nerf. Now she needs to absorb at least 1 hit from a 600 range opponent before getting a free webbed shot in; makes her trades less favorable.

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Armadon

Seems like an overall harsh nerf to Armadon. The intelligence nerf is going to hit significantly harder than the other ones as now he will have to invest in some items that require some Int. Over the course of 10 levels he loses 6 Int which translates to 78 mana, which doesn’t seem like a lot but does add up.

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Bushwack

Bushwack is already incredibly frustrating to play against due to his unparalleled mobility and overall damage (and his ability to solo Kong); adding in anti-juke makes him less likely to step on the toes of Emerald Warden, Blood Hunter and over anti-jukers.

Adding in a Staff portion that allows for him to see tracks that enemies leave behind (imagine a Bramble trail of poison drips) would be a fine alternative if it seems to be a big hit, but I don’t think it will hurt him that much as his main identity (mobility and kiting) is still intact.

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Chronos

20 extra seconds still doesn’t seem like enough for Chronos’ gamechanging Ultimate but we will see.

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Corrupted Disciple

Love these changes and the synergy between overload and conduit. I wonder if it might actually be worse for CD though as he might end up killing his target before stealing the maximum damage. The Static Discharge buffs are great, most of the time you barely notice it, and it is a fairly unique skill so its nice to see it get some power.

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Defiler

I’m very wary of ANY Defiler changes as she is an incredibly powerful hero in the right hands when Expulsion is up. Seems okay at first glance... Not sure.

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Drunken Master

I like the change even though it is a straight nerf. It makes it so DM has to move around the field and go from target to target which is great for the hero’s design.

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Ellonia

I don’t know if this will be enough as the hero is loaded with insane range, damage and a stacking slow on everything making melee lives excessively miserable in the laning phase. I don’t want to see her projectile speed lowered so this might be okay; probably won’t be super noticeable after level 3 in laning but we will see.

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Empath

Sure, why not.

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Geomancer

I don’t like this change at all, from my previous post:

“Geo changes seem like a sidegrade, but I dislike it from a flavour and mechanical perspective as it doesn't give me the Tremors vibe the original does. I also dislike how we removed the play pattern of standing still to avoid it, I think that was a meaningful decision and actually added some interesting plays and a dynamic unlike any other hero.”

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Hellbringer

Hellbringer has had a rollercoaster of buffs and nerfs over 10 years... I think he’s the strongest he’s ever been right now so this really puts him in line. He already has a risk-free (counter) initiation and insane pushing power so this helps him pass the Valk Test.

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Ichor

Sidegrade despite the numbers, Ichor taking 80% also meant that Ichor died faster and Blood Rush suffered because of it. Have to play with it a lot more to finalize my thoughts but the hero is actually still very, very strong.

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Kinesis

Not much to say here.

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King Klout

Toss has always been oppressive in lane and this helps him have to make some meaningful choices early. I like the overall Bluster buff as now you can grab a single rank to proc Conscription instead of having to bite the bullet and grab two. Parade buff is nice I guess but 5 seconds isn’t make or break.

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Master of Arms

Noticeable Ultimate change for a powerful Ultimate. Will make the choice of who and when to use it a lot more meaningful early on.

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Myrmidon

Myrm feels like he performs really well and on a support with one and a half escapes (counting Forced Evolution) it seems good to put him down in line to where other, more vulnerable supports are at.

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Puppet Master

Base movement nerf is fine, the hero has 2 very powerful disables to support himself. Whiplash changes seem reasonable as it is a confirmed critical strike as opposed to random, this already leans the skill to be in PM’s favour. Again the hero has multiple disables and 600 range so the charge loss nerf barely matters but is still noticeable. Puppet should have to make choices with his skills as they all serve different purposes and are all good. Passes the Valk Test more and more.

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Qi

I’m hugely Biased here as Qi is one of my favourite heroes. I think the Puncture nerfs are a little too over the top, not only is the duration reduced, but the slow now tapers off. A 1 second tapering slow isn’t even noticeable for the most part and will really hurt his ability to play a slot 4 or 5 in desperate times; that and increasing the mana cost by 42% (!)  at 1 is kind of a lot.

Assault Nerf is probably warranted but it requires your opponent to have significantly more Attack than Health to get real value. Probably still very effective however.

I’ll still be playing Qi but it is going to be a lot more painful during laning.

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Ravenor

Agree with EU here as well as the overall design that he needs to be carefully looked at because he busts open the rules for damage and carries.

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Scout

Not a massive loss early game due to the way Disarm works with its cooldown reduction but definitely noticeable; would probably shut down 1 extra attack lategame.

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Shadowblade

Agree with EU here about how oppressive Shadowblade is and how lopsided his forms are. I like how it gives him more identity and more reason to switch forms now though, which is a change I welcome from a flavour and mechanical POV.

My displeasure with the Qi changes have been noted. I will be testing him come the 2nd and return to the Balance Forums.

Edited by Hubaris

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Posted (edited)

Our prayers have been answered and Icon was nerfed on Mid Wars.

I STILL THINK IT SHOULD BE REMOVED FORM THE GAME MODE THO.

Crazy snowball item who makes heroes that shouldn't be so tanky too tanky. Also, removing it from the game mode will balance some Intel heroes like Dr.Repulsor and Parallax. (and the other Intel heroes, really).

Edited by thechinawall
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The implementation of Qi's concept is just flawed. All you have to do is look at clips where heroes that don't build attack damage get their HP chunked by Qi's R. 

 

Until that can be addressed, the power of R can take a hit. 

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Posted (edited)

I like allot of these changes allot, here are my thoughts on the heroes that interest me the most or I have the most experience with.

CD: A big buff towards CD carry. As eletric tide is used to box out enemy dual lanes, and clear medium/small camp very very early in the game. So the lower CD, the more spam, the more spam the more GPM. Also the attack speed increase, I absolutely HATE last hitting with cd; I hope this addresses that; where did that idea come from btw? Also I fear CD becoming a problem.

Ravenor: A interesting change, not a path I would have taken. I already max out his Passive E for the farming mechanism and free damage. I'm not sure how I feel about this change with out testing it. As it appears to be more powerful for charges on R during TFs, but less effective for its primary use; farming.

PuppetMaster: High base damage level 1 hits for 60-72 damage + crit. It needs a larger nerf imo but its a good start. Would also welcome him having even slower base MS like 295, as he has disables to compensate. 

Apex: I would've welcomed a damage nerf, or even a mobility nerf. The hero is really really powerful, I dont understand this.

Arachna: Probably needs more nerfs, but again a good start. I think alls you really need to do is make the tower Agro on webed shot. So he can't tower dive as safely at level 6.

Bushwack: One of my favorite heroes in HoN since WZA changed him, I welcome the jungle toxin visibility nerf I would also welcome him not being able to stack on kongor.

Drunken Master: Great, he needed it. 

Ellonia: IMO I never play her, and am always on the receiving end of an ellonia player, glad you reduced the burst damage would also liked to see a reduction on multiple stacks of freezing, but keep it the same as it initially is, just when she has massive stacks on you does it become cancer.

Ichor: Brain dead hero, anything that makes this hero either Nerfed or less brain dead is good imo.

Kins: OP, good start, would be interested to have him not pick up allied creeps.

Klout: what? 5 second cd reduction on his ulti?

Shadowblade: I like, easy to play hero that becomes way too tanky and deals way too much damage.

items

Zamos/Grave: Feel like this is more of a nerf towards Roaming rather then supports but it does impact them as well.

Astro: Why? because players are picking it up lol? If strength/combo meta didn't exist then carry players would not be forced into buying astrolab. Its never an item we want, but an item we need. You're making carrying become more unbearable. Leave it alone.

Barrier Idol: Needs a nerf dunno how but it needs to happen.

Nomes: This item needs an upgrade, please! Buffing will make it less likely to happen.

Armor items: All of them need to be nerfed, all of them. Great start

Hypercrown: ??? already too expensive??

Spyglass: Epic Style, I got this issue and fail to resolve it most of the time. This will remind me that I have this problem and well resolve it!

Edited by magicgirlj
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34 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

The implementation of Qi's concept is just flawed. All you have to do is look at clips where heroes that don't build attack damage get their HP chunked by Qi's R. 

 

Until that can be addressed, the power of R can take a hit. 

Oh I'm fine with the Assault Nerf, I think Puncture got hit a little too hard IMO.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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If Kane dies while under the effects of Face Off, the enemy hero who killed Kane permanently gains 8/12/16 Attack Damage.

I agree that this change promotes toxic behavior. This should be removed IMHO and very unhealthy in the long run. It is the team's responsibility to protect the one who unfortunately targeted by Kane's SS w/o seeing the hero as a "risky investment". Mights as well revert Shellshocks pre-4.0 sanctuary stone.

 

Quote

Void Rip
- Cast Range reduced from 800/1000/1200 to 700/875/1050.

Now we are 150 units step closer to andromeda. Good Nerf

 

Quote

Jungle Toxin
- No longer Sights or Reveals enemies.
- State duration reduced from 3 seconds to 2.5 seconds.

A reason not play the hero at all. I am okay with the no longer sights the hero nerf, because its unfair to begin with, but with invisible-detector removed, its like saying "come kill and me invisibles and get your gold".

 

Quote

3 Point Strike
- If all strike points are activated for an enemy hero, time period to reset the strike points for that particular enemy hero increased from 3 seconds to 8 seconds.

Why not change it to 9/6/3 instead of 8 seconds at all levels?

 

Quote

- Sensor mechanics reworked:
* No longer shows moving enemies in fog within its radius.
* Geo Stalk now emits a tremorsense pulse every 3 seconds, showing the location of enemy units in fog at that particular instance in time.

How about change to something like, every 3 seconds detects the enemy movement for 1 second within fog? Otherwise, as a geo player, i wont take this skill until late game.

 

Quote

Magic Carp
- Movement Speed Slow reduced from 30/40/50/60% to 30% (when the target is not moving at the time of impact).

Last patch, its said that "The change looks stronger on paper than it is in practice. "  Now, the paper that your giving to us is of bad quality than before.Thanks FB!

 

Quote

Shadowblade

Gargantuan's Blast
- Mana Cost changed from 90 to 75/85/95/105.
- Magic Damage reduced from 60/120/180/240 to 55/110/165/220.
- Now suffers a 20% Damage Penalty and -15% Movement Speed while this form is active.

Feint's Siphon
- Mana Cost changed from 90 to 75/85/95/105.
- Magic Damage reduced from 60/120/180/240 to 55/110/165/220.
- Now receives an additional 8% Damage while this form is active.

Shadowblade int is the new META!
 

 

Quote

Orb of Zamos
- New recipe: Minor Totem (50) + Recipe (250) = 300 Gold Total (Total Cost unchanged from before)
- Bonus Strength, Agility and Intelligence reduced from 2 to 1.
- Gold bonus for creep kills is now halved if the distance between the linked heroes is greater than 1500.

Grave Locket
- Now requires a 25 Gold Recipe.
* Total Cost increased from 775 Gold to 800 Gold.
- Bonus Agility reduced from 5 to 2.
- Gold bonus for creep kills is now halved if the distance between the linked heroes is greater than 1500.
- Bonus Experience granted to the linked hero per enemy creep kill reduced from 15 to 10.
- Now only grants Bonus Experience to the linked hero for an enemy creep kill if the linked hero is not within the experience range of the creep kill.

the nerf on this item is so infuriating! This is the only item that helps dual-hard laner wins the lane and makes the other cries in despair if they do not know how to play properly. Playstyle is now back to pre-somaz meta.

 

Quote

Twin Blades
- Damage on the secondary attack reduced from 100% to 80%

Not enough nerf. tone down it to 40%.

 


Take my feedback with a lot of salt.

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I've really enjoyed the recent balancing from EU. That said, this is my least favourite patch in recent history.  I feel like whilst you could make a case for all the nerfs, the patch overall is too nerf heavy.. where is the meta? 

For me personally it lacks excitement and brings many heroes and items back to average. Hon suffered for a long time in balancing to due to deliberate, preconceived ideas to create a meta around imbalanced heroes which was honestly unenjoyable to play.. I think this patch is too far in the other direction though - you still need strong heroes and items. It keeps the game fresh and sparks player creativity.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, DesoZaKiddo said:

A reason not play the hero at all. I am okay with the no longer sights the hero nerf, because its unfair to begin with, but with invisible-detector removed, its like saying "come kill and me invisibles and get your gold".

I mean you have to hit them to reveal them so your logic of heroes now suddenly being able to kill you from invis is flawed.

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Nice Patch. I like pretty much every change ?

unfortunate woods will still not be viable, but thats the meta and i will have to deal with that!

keep up the good work, EU!

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Why is Qi nerfed in every patch?

I used to play Qi in FoC ALOT, i know Qi is VERY STRONK vs enemy carries but Qi is also VERY easily countered and has zero escape where only proper items let him survive. I think the Ulti now being at 60% is not good for the hero combined with the previous patch's stupid thing of reducing damage over length or w/e. I havent played Qi in a while cuz i feel like its not that a real threat to enemy carry as it used to be anymore.

I have 17% Qi usage in 878 FoC ranked games (still the highest %age for me even tho i havent played Qi for a long time) and i know this hero well enough. and its a hero meant to be played at dual long or mid cuz playing it as short aggressive support hinders its roaming potential.

I feel like reverting it back 2 patches would be nice. and bringing up an argument that it does alot of burst damage is just not valid, alot of other heroes do much more burst damage throughout the game and have much higher survivability, where Qi is only potent late/mid game. Qi can not even dominate a lane solo, a jump/gank on Qi will result in its death 80% of the time. (take dampeer for example at the other end of the spectrum).

pls respond

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, haradon said:

Why is Qi nerfed in every patch?

I used to play Qi in FoC ALOT, i know Qi is VERY STRONK vs enemy carries but Qi is also VERY easily countered and has zero escape where only proper items let him survive. I think the Ulti now being at 60% is not good for the hero combined with the previous patch's stupid thing of reducing damage over length or w/e. I havent played Qi in a while cuz i feel like its not that a real threat to enemy carry as it used to be anymore.

I have 17% Qi usage in 878 FoC ranked games (still the highest %age for me even tho i havent played Qi for a long time) and i know this hero well enough. and its a hero meant to be played at dual long or mid cuz playing it as short aggressive support hinders its roaming potential.

I feel like reverting it back 2 patches would be nice. and bringing up an argument that it does alot of burst damage is just not valid, alot of other heroes do much more burst damage throughout the game and have much higher survivability, where Qi is only potent late/mid game. Qi can not even dominate a lane solo, a jump/gank on Qi will result in its death 80% of the time. (take dampeer for example at the other end of the spectrum).

pls respond

I'm sure you'll change your mind if you see a clip where Qi just melts everyone's HP at level 11/16. I can't find a Twitch clip of that, but I remember seeing it on either Testie's or Dutchownage's stream. If anyone can find such a clip, feel free to post it in this thread.

The conceptual problem with Qi is that the damage on E/R scales with an opponent's natural attribute that also scales roughly the same amount even on heroes that don't normally build Attack Damage. Because of this problem, he melts HP pools of heroes that he shouldn't, when his goal is to only melt heroes that have high Attack Damage. However, the difference in Attack Damage for the heroes that actually build it isn't high enough (from an absolute/mathematical standpoint) compared to any hero's natural damage scaling.

Because of this flawed concept, Qi will either be remade to do something else, or the entire concept has to be rebalanced appropriately with new mathematical equations. Basing it off just Attack Damage is not enough, and because every hero has pretty similar natural scaling, it's not easy to distinguish what the scaling/threshold of power should be against heroes that build autoattack-based DPS vs. those that don't/those that build a hybrid.

 

In other words, Qi's concept & its execution/implementation is flawed & causes an unfair level of frustration with little to no counterplay, so the power has to be kept in check until it can be fixed. The process of fixing this takes an ample amount of time to do properly (from design + conceptual, to getting a first draft, to getting iterations, to implementation, to adding VFX/SFX, to QA testing). Needless to say, there's a lot more that goes into a rework than what the players think.

Edited by ElementUser
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21 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

Because of this flawed concept, Qi will either be remade to do something else, or the entire concept has to be rebalanced appropriately with new mathematical equations. Basing it off just Attack Damage is not enough, and because every hero has pretty similar natural scaling, it's not easy to distinguish what the scaling/threshold of power should be against heroes that build autoattack-based DPS vs. those that don't/those that build a hybrid.

Woah woah easy there! Let's not be rash yes? I'm sure we can find some kind of balance here, I mean it is Qi afterall.

I would hate to see him gutted so if you want to talk shop I'm all ears to finding some middleground that works.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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18 minutes ago, Hubaris said:

Woah woah easy there! Let's not be rash yes? I'm sure we can find some kind of balance here, I mean it is Qi afterall.

I would hate to see him gutted so if you want to talk shop I'm all ears to finding some middleground that works.

I do agree that the Q nerf was a bit out of nowhere. It's in alot of cases the only ability that actually enables the hero itself, by disabling and slowing someone else.
 

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I get what u are trying to say but i personally prefer if there is a hero that can output a lot of damage then it should have a major disadvantage and in Qi's case its his low suvivability. Like seriously every game i played good with Qi, the enemy team RIGHTLY focused me before each fight. I agree that it can output major damage to carry (erases hammer storm from the map) but was it really outputting that much damage to non-carry heroes?

Suppose a support with 150 damage mid game, previous patch Qi's ulti will do about 725 superior magic damage (not that huge of a burst compared to dampeer boi), it does seem a lot of damage BUT think about it in a fight situation, the enemy team knows they shouldn't stand close to each other or they don't say 'hey lets walk in a straight line for lols' ( unless its a combo with tempest etc which is totally an other thing ). Why would someone playing Qi would focus a non-carry hero or say by chance Qi can manage to land ulti on say 3 heroes but why would that even happen if the enemy team is aware that Qi is a serious threat and is easily countered with items or heroes or jump on him, its too easy to kill/shutdown Qi. Its potential lies within focusing the carry and i dont think any Qi player would land ulti on non-carry heroes in a fight and avoid carry. Qi requires proper items to become useful and survive and its not just about pressing R.

Suppose in lane Qi decides to land ulti on a support with 100 dmg he would only do 525 superior magic damage, with 80 sec cd i doubt anyone would throw it on a support (lvl 16) whereas Witch slayer would do 850 magic damage (lvl 16) with 55 sec cd. The comparison isnt fair but it puts into perspective that its not REALLY that unbalanced as it seems on paper.

I Agree with you @ElementUser on that unintended mechanism but within gameplay it seems plausible. And isnt this the purpose of the game, to outplay your opponent by playing smart (picking items like Hellflower or even a Pk jump on Qi will render him useless).

The people who are not familiar with Qi enough are the ones that get 'melted' (0.2% usage ?). Anyone who knows how potent Qi can be WILL COUNTER IT (heck pick vindi). So i say if something seems OP then it should also have weakness and i feel like with these changes, For me Qi would end up having the same fate as Nitro.

But at the end its just how i feel towards this and in my opinion its just unnecessary nerfing.

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