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Patch 4.8.4 discussion thread


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I only play for midwars mmr. My life now has no meaning.

Seriously!?!? Bring back MMR in MIDWARS please. Such a lame change.

You got me. Obviously I have 0 knowledge on hero models ?

15 minutes ago, Zen said:

** hidden MW mmr

 

Killing the game again and again.

For the 30 people who play foc "to have fun" with it.

I thought EU was a smart guy, have to reconsider.

lol, Midwars mmr was never a thing, Midwars mode is a fun mode that was never intended to be competitive, just one and only goal (TO HAVE FUN)
I do not see how is that “killing the game” ?

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37 minutes ago, Zen said:

** hidden MW mmr

 

Killing the game again and again.

For the 30 people who play foc "to have fun" with it.

I thought EU was a smart guy, have to reconsider.

You're basically saying "I disagree with your change, so you must not be a smart guy"

Okay? That tells me more about you than it does about whoever you're directing that statement to.

Also I don't know if you've read the MMR change, it's only for Mid Wars (you even quoted that part). In what way does it affect FoC?

 

(I responded to you in the same way on the Reddit thread).

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Zen said:

** hidden MW mmr

 

Killing the game again and again.

For the 30 people who play foc "to have fun" with it.

I thought EU was a smart guy, have to reconsider.

Just use the Midwar mmr mod, it's the same thing.

20 minutes ago, `Shattered said:

lol, Midwars mmr was never a thing, Midwars mode is a fun mode that was never intended to be competitive, just one and only goal (TO HAVE FUN)
I do not see how is that “killing the game” ?

We are in 2020 and still the same old "reasons" being thrown around. lmao. Midwars has always had a hidden mmr, not sure how you can say it "was never a thing". A lot of people play Midwars competatively, maybe it's time to shelve the "Midwars is a fun mode" mindeset and just accept that the 2015/16 excuses don't cut it anymore.

Edited by SmolSnek
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Posted (edited)

  

6 minutes ago, SmolSnek said:

Just use the Midwar mmr mod, it's the same thing.

We are in 2020 and still the same old "reasons" being thrown around. lmao. Midwars has always had a hidden mmr, not sure how you can say it "was never a thing". A lot of people play Midwars competatively, maybe it's time to shelve the "Midwars is a fun mode" mindeset and just accept that the 2015/16 excuses don't cut it anymore.

 

To clear up some potential confusion on what premise you're actually addressing:
 

We are not strictly enforcing views on a game mode. However, we do reinforce our vision on how the game mode is primarily meant to be perceived & played as. You can think that Casual Mode, Mid Wars, even custom maps are competitive and treat it as such a mode.

 

Officially though, Mid Wars is meant to be casual & non-competitive by Frostburn Studios & viewed/treated as such when considering certain factors (the matchmaking algorithm for that mode, tournaments, etc.)

 

It is fine if you guys use a mod - what is important is that the average player (who does not use mods) does not think that Mid Wars MMR is "official" in any way & does not represent a player's "true skill in Mid Wars" in any official capacity, and that it does not create unnecessary tension in the game mode.

Edited by ElementUser
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Dam seems everyone is getting a debuff. I have to say I think that Geo change is brutal. The primary reason to get the hero was to counter invis heroes and set up ganks. I wonder how useful/ picked up he will be now. I guess I will have to try out the new ability in game. 

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Posted (edited)

Yes, a lot of nerfs were made in this patch, as there are quite a number of broken/frustrating mechanics in the game, not to mention the play pattern diversity we want to encourage. It's all for the benefit of the game's health for the long term.

 

They weren't nerfed to uselessness though - quite the opposite. They were toned down to just the right level so that you can reasonably deal with them & that they can still fulfill their role properly.

Edited by ElementUser
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Fair I guess the only way to find out is in game. Was the idea to tone the power level down instead of compensating by buffing other heroes/items to compensate in comparison to other heroes? Thanks. 

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Kane

Face Off
- Staff of the Master effect addition (new):
* If the target dies while under the effects of Face Off, Kane permanently gains 8/12/16 Attack Damage.
* If Kane dies while under the effects of Face Off, the enemy hero who killed Kane permanently gains 8/12/16 Attack Damage.

brilliant, so kane now officially is the only hero with a staff effect that:
a) porentially punishes him for trying to safe a teammate.
b) promotes griefing!!!!!!

why not giving him a stacking +0.1/+0.2/+0.3 Physical Armour / Magic Armourinstead which would actually introduce a new layer and allow him to even better fit his anti carry/initiator/tofftank role?
just trying to understand the motivation of punishing him and his team for getting a staff on him....

Vindi gains Intelligence for nearby kills, Devo gets Strength, why not grant Kane Armour and Magic Armour? would be so much better and allow him to actually challenge Armadon in terms of damage mitigation! so much more flexible than damage + punishment...
I can already see all the Kanes building Cleaver now to farm Staff... just to then be focused down for the punishment of the staff effect...

Please I beg you to reconsider that particular change!

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29 minutes ago, DoorDash said:

Fair I guess the only way to find out is in game. Was the idea to tone the power level down instead of compensating by buffing other heroes/items to compensate in comparison to other heroes? Thanks. 

Generally speaking, yes. Changes to the global power level is more healthy than just what players see when specific heroes are nerfed.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, merryhonmas said:

brilliant, so kane now officially is the only hero with a staff effect that:
a) porentially punishes him for trying to safe a teammate.
b) promotes griefing!!!!!!

why not giving him a stacking +0.1/+0.2/+0.3 Physical Armour / Magic Armourinstead which would actually introduce a new layer and allow him to even better fit his anti carry/initiator/tofftank role?
just trying to understand the motivation of punishing him and his team for getting a staff on him....

Vindi gains Intelligence for nearby kills, Devo gets Strength, why not grant Kane Armour and Magic Armour? would be so much better and allow him to actually challenge Armadon in terms of damage mitigation! so much more flexible than damage + punishment...
I can already see all the Kanes building Cleaver now to farm Staff... just to then be focused down for the punishment of the staff effect...

Please I beg you to reconsider that particular change!

I wonder why you didn't say anything when the patch highlights video came out 2 days ago.

 

In any case, this is the most cynical view on the item. Most of the time, if Kane gets a SotM (and even when using R in general), he has full control of actually when to use it & already has a pretty big advantage over his foe. Enemies do deserve rewards if they counterplay it.

 

SotMs are often (but shouldn't always) be considered a pure upside. In Kane's case, it's a big potential upside that has a reasonable threshold to hit high levels of power. With that comes a reasonable counterplay option.

 

You can also be cynical and say that if Gemini's Light wolf is caught out if he has SotM, it's 1 more thing the player needs to keep track of  & he could die because of that compared to if he didn't get SotM. You could argue that, but we all know that if a player gets a SotM, they implicitly accept potential disadvantages that may come with it because of the huge upsides that come with them.

Edited by ElementUser
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- Astrolabe and Plated twiches were due to happen

- Arachna: Got more nerfs than needed. Personal opinion the attack range should have just been scaling into 600 through levelling 3rd skill or something ( as the main problem was the early game, and specifically the 1 vs 1 mid), combined with either : a) mana cost increase should have been done on Q spell or b) reduced magic damage from Q  .( i hope her nerf doesnt feel so heavy as it seems on paper)

- Bushwack:  I dont really play the hero, but i think instead of removing his ability completely , maybe it was better to add this feature to his staff effect.

-Ellonia: I love the small mana cost twiches. 

-Hag: Maybe 60 sec instead of 70 would have been a better and smoother transition to the change

- Puppet Master:  Agree with the scaling of his passive cooldown, but i dont find necessary the nerf on his crit.  And he already got his ultimate nerfed several times. Its not that i can argue really with the changes but he is getting double nerfed in a single patch. They guy sits at 34% of usage with 51% win. These numbers seem pretty ok to me, cant understand the reason of multiple nerfs, whilst other hard carries like Nomad sits at 43% win rate and they dont get a twich this patch.


-  Overall great patch imo, really fine tunes on paper, cant wait to test them out

          

                  PLUS+
 

    **HoNiversary Hype **    ⚡⚡


Thanks guys for all of this, and also a big thank you to HoNOmg 
 

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I wonder why you didn't say anything when the patch highlights video came out 2 days ago.

I apparently did not get notified of this from Youtube otherwise I definitely would have.

Quote

n any case, this is the most cynical view on the item. Most of the time, if Kane gets a SotM (and even when using R in general), he has full control of actually when to use it & already has a pretty big advantage over his foe. Enemies do deserve rewards if they counterplay it.

I do agree with the statement that this was a cynical review, but in all fairness, if I as someone that may have some toxic personailty traits but stays very far away from griefing at any time, had that impression, rest asured others would have had it too :x

Secondly it is factually the only Staff that rewards counterplay, none of the others do! I just find it a bit too heavy that the opponent receives the same permanent benefits he does. Kanes ultimate already has a high amount of attention during teamfights, with supports building items specifically to shut it down. Now they are being potentially rewarded double for him spending 4200 or someone else spending 2500. i just dont see the balance of risk-reward in all honesty.

Quote

SotMs are often (but shouldn't always) be considered a pure upside. In Kane's case, it's a big potential upside that has a reasonable threshold to hit high levels of power. With that comes a reasonable counterplay option.

see above

Quote

You can also be cynical and say that if Gemini's Light wolf is caught out if he has SotM, it's 1 more thing the player needs to keep track of  & he could die because of that compared to if he didn't get SotM. You could argue that, but we all know that if a player gets a SotM, they implicitly accept potential disadvantages that may come with it because of the huge upsides that come with them.

To use a common phrase: that would be like comparing Apples to Pineapple, they share a name but are not related :7

But no seriously Kanes staff ACTIVELY grants an advantage to opponents (potential factor but existing), geminis staff does not and in most cases gemini is played by people with SOME form of manual multi unit control skills, aka micro. ofcourse there is also the occasional "i never skill ultimate" guy but no point in divulging into that abomination rn ?

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Posted (edited)

Did I misunderstand the geo change? cause for me it doesn't sound like a nerf. Besides the reduced movement speed it can still reveal invis heroes, just not permanently within the fog. The range was increased means every 3 seconds he reveals everybody even in the fog. Those heroes he has vision on (allies, wards etc.) are still perma shown and he now detects incoming enemies through an even higher distance..

Nitro rework sounds interesting but really strong - gonna see how that works out.

 

For Kane I like the idea, however, I also see a potential frustration it might cause. If players get a permanent bonus damage they could play him mid and rush staff using it as a tool to "lasthit"  almost dead targets to ensure they get the bonus to end up carrying at some point instead of actually focussing the important targets. In the end it would be the players fault, however, I see some potential frustration when this occurs and the team ends up losing the fight due to bad calls. 

 

I'm a bit worried about ichor: Not being able to transfer stuns when used on an enemy means that he will get stunned himself? For me his whole presence relied on an outstanding (broken) W. Playing aggressively against certain lineups countering their spells. If he can't transfer the stuns anymore (or even worse, he gets stunned himself) his kit is quite underwhelming compared to other support heroes and I feel his other spells should have been buffed a bit. The hero itself was already a niche pick - the fun part was the aggressive use of him and I'm afraid that is kinda gone now (considering that all his common itempickups were nerfed as well)

Edited by hegelsohn
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Posted (edited)

The Geomancer change was both a buff and a nerf, so that is correct.

 

Ichor transferring stuns onto enemies when he was linked with enemies was stupid & shouldn't have been a thing. It was an oversight, not an intended behaviour. He can still transfer stuns from allies to himself though.

 

The design philosophy is that heroes like Ichor end up being broken in games in the majority of the cases (not the minority). First, those have to be toned down to a reasonable level while still keeping his niche. If that means that a frustrating feature (like transferring stuns to opponents) have to be taken away, so be it.

 

Buffs come after said hero isn't frustrating to play against because it's safe to actually buff them when that is actually the case (not when they're being a ball of frustration).

Edited by ElementUser
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Posted (edited)

Oh boy where to begin... I'd call this patch a mix between decent patch and a "Baby patch" most of the broken stuff has been assessed, but change is visible to some items/heroes only by using a microscope.

I'm not gonna comment on Nitro, I'm still confused why would you continuously nerf a tier 9 hero aka the 40% winrate hero and then again when it had 38% winrate (from few patches ago), but let's forget about that, I'm glad you decided to give it a rework atleast.

Now moving on to staff effects...

Kane staff looks like if you gave some 7 year old troll the ability to balance stuff... sorry for being rude but I wouldn't buy that effect if it was 200 gold, but the idea of trolling and ulting enemies non stop while having staff and giving them damage is interesting, p sure we gonna see it in future.

Hag staff is one of the few things that pleased me after reading the notes, very good change and needed.

Balphagore staff is a mistery to me and I will have to test it myself, and since it's one of my most played heroes that's probably what I will do first. On paper it looks insanely broken. And If I'm right with the next thing then it's even more insane; so if I ult 3 people and spread my W on them; will that count towards reseting my R CD? And if it will, then it's very likely that I'm going to be using 2 ults in the same teamfight if the teamfight it's 20-30 seconds. (I won't comment on it anymore before I've tested it)

Klanx staff looks fair, even tho I would personally put something like an Elder parasite effect in terms of that it increases the dmg taken every time Klanx is in the flight mode.

Now the map changes and interface changes:

I still don't understand why is support or dual lane being able to pull the medium camp creeps to attack their lane creeps. It gives a massive advantage and imbalance to anyone who manages to control the medium camp and kills the suicide meta. Support if uncontested by dual lane is able to farm 350 GPM before minute 20 with ease. Instead I would love to see a feature that disables lane creeps from attacking any neutral creeps besides the ones from the easy camp.

We'll see if the new refreshment rune is working good.

Hero changes:

ARACHNA: I agree that Arachna nerf was needed, but come on... that was underwhelming. Q dmg change is simply not enough to matter and there was no change in Arachna's W. You can still remove almost everything while you are being affected by it, sheep etc... how frustrating is when I see Arachna being picked mid and forcing me  to choose heroes outside of the 98% box that she shits on. Being boxed out lvl 1 and not being able to do anything. And also staff on Ara is ridiculous with such a low CD and such a high range.

ELLONIA: Simply not enough... she can still use close to 10 spells on you level 2 and slow you to non-existance. While also getting last hits. Not to mention how hard it is to push against that hero even when she is not that farmed.

ICHOR: love it!

QI: why??? is Qi a problem in this current patch? Why is it being nerfed.

Shadowblade: Another questionmark... why is a tier 5 hero being hammered. It underperforms insanely and it has 46% winrate. Hero is just not too good on avarage and I'm super confused by this nerf.

The one nerf I expected the most and it didn't happen is the Ophelia nerf. How is it fair if a hero runs at you at minute 6 with 3 boss creeps who have 1k HP, stuns and also auras. And you are lvl 5-6 with red boots and few sustain items. How do you deal with that? You can maybe bring creeps to low HP, but hey look at that... she healed them to full. Ofc ophelia's winrate numbers back me up... it was supposed to be the hardest hero in the game and not the strongest

Flint CD on R is still unchanged which makes you harass enemy squishies without being close to them, it's simply not fun to play against it tho it is fun to play it.

Gladiator whip (E) unchanged; you can still outharass almost every hero in the game playing against it mid, and it still works while denying creeps. It does too much damage for such a low CD.

Items:

Spyglass = fun

Zamos and Locket = good

Astro= simply not enough, cost needs to be way more higher, somewhere close to 1800 like it was before. I like the agi change.

Spellshards nerf = decent

Rev ward "nerf" = very good

Hypercrown nerf = baby nerf... not enough, cost should be way higher

Greaves nerf = decent

Barrier buff = I can't understand it, item is being abused almost every game and is super unfair.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sad to see that there is no shamans headress nerf since the item is bought atleast 2 times in every game, and almost on every mid hero in higher games.

No power supply nerf as well, item is too cheap and brings too much to a player. It used to be 550 gold in the past for a reason.

No soultrap nerf... again it's being bought alot in the higher games, both by aggresive dual long laners and sometimes by mid players. Gold cost is simply too low for the effect.

The last one is debatable, but I would also like to see a nerf to Frostfield plate... it gives too much armor and slows down the attack speed of enemies too much. Also the usable effect slows down enemies too much. But like I said, this one is just my opinion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also a thing I forgot to suggest which I think would be super cool is = make account icons visible before the picking phase where that HoN icon next to player's name is. Like it was in the old hontour matches. I think it would be super cool.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Diabetis
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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Diabetis said:

Oh boy where to begin... I'd call this patch a mix between decent patch and a "Baby patch" most of the broken stuff has been assessed, but change is visible to some items/heroes only by using a microscope.

I'm not gonna comment on Nitro, I'm still confused why would you continuously nerf a tier 9 hero aka the 40% winrate hero and then again when it had 38% winrate (from few patches ago), but let's forget about that, I'm glad you decided to give it a rework atleast.

Now moving on to staff effects...

Kane staff looks like if you gave some 7 year old troll the ability to balance stuff... sorry for being rude but I wouldn't buy that effect if it was 200 gold, but the idea of trolling and ulting enemies non stop while having staff and giving them damage is interesting, p sure we gonna see it in future.

Hag staff is one of the few things that pleased me after reading the notes, very good change and needed.

Balphagore staff is a mistery to me and I will have to test it myself, and since it's one of my most played heroes that's probably what I will do first. On paper it looks insanely broken. And If I'm right with the next thing then it's even more insane; so if I ult 3 people and spread my W on them; will that count towards reseting my R CD? And if it will, then it's very likely that I'm going to be using 2 ults in the same teamfight if the teamfight it's 20-30 seconds. (I won't comment on it anymore before I've tested it)

Klanx staff looks fair, even tho I would personally put something like an Elder parasite effect in terms of that it increases the dmg taken every time Klanx is in the flight mode.

Now the map changes and interface changes:

I still don't understand why is support or dual lane being able to pull the medium camp creeps to attack their lane creeps. It gives a massive advantage and imbalance to anyone who manages to control the medium camp and kills the suicide meta. Support if uncontested by dual lane is able to farm 350 GPM before minute 20 with ease. Instead I would love to see a feature that disables lane creeps from attacking any neutral creeps besides the ones from the easy camp.

We'll see if the new refreshment rune is working good.

Hero changes:

ARACHNA: I agree that Arachna nerf was needed, but come on... that was underwhelming. Q dmg change is simply not enough to matter and there was no change in Arachna's W. You can still remove almost everything while you are being affected by it, sheep etc... how frustrating is when I see Arachna being picked mid and forcing me  to choose heroes outside of the 98% box that she shits on. Being boxed out lvl 1 and not being able to do anything. And also staff on Ara is ridiculous with such a low CD and such a high range.

ELLONIA: Simply not enough... she can still use close to 10 spells on you level 2 and slow you to non-existance. While also getting last hits. Not to mention how hard it is to push against that hero even when she is not that farmed.

ICHOR: love it!

QI: why??? is Qi a problem in this current patch? Why is it being nerfed.

Shadowblade: Another questionmark... why is a tier 5 hero being hammered. It underperforms insanely and it has 46% winrate. Hero is just not too good on avarage and I'm super confused by this nerf.

The one nerf I expected the most and it didn't happen is the Ophelia nerf. How is it fair if a hero runs at you at minute 6 with 3 boss creeps who have 1k HP, stuns and also auras. And you are lvl 5-6 with red boots and few sustain items. How do you deal with that? You can maybe bring creeps to low HP, but hey look at that... she healed them to full. Ofc ophelia's winrate numbers back me up... it was supposed to be the hardest hero in the game and not the strongest

Flint CD on R is still unchanged which makes you harass enemy squishies without being close to them, it's simply not fun to play against it tho it is fun to play it.

Gladiator whip (E) unchanged; you can still outharass almost every hero in the game playing against it mid, and it still works while denying creeps. It does too much damage for such a low CD.

Items:

Spyglass = fun

Zamos and Locket = good

Astro= simply not enough, cost needs to be way more higher, somewhere close to 1800 like it was before. I like the agi change.

Spellshards nerf = decent

Rev ward "nerf" = very good

Hypercrown nerf = baby nerf... not enough, cost should be way higher

Greaves nerf = decent

Barrier buff = I can't understand it, item is being abused almost every game and is super unfair.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sad to see that there is no shamans headress nerf since the item is bought atleast 2 times in every game, and almost on every mid hero in higher games.

No power supply nerf as well, item is too cheap and brings too much to a player. It used to be 550 gold in the past for a reason.

No soultrap nerf... again it's being bought alot in the higher games, both by aggresive dual long laners and sometimes by mid players. Gold cost is simply too low for the effect.

The last one is debatable, but I would also like to see a nerf to Frostfield plate... it gives too much armor and slows down the attack speed of enemies too much. Also the usable effect slows down enemies too much. But like I said, this one is just my opinion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also a thing I forgot to suggest which I think would be super cool is = make account icons visible before the picking phase where that HoN icon next to player's name is. Like it was in the old hontour matches. I think it would be super cool.

 

 

 

 

 

It's not reasonable to have 1 patch fix all the issues, just to let you know. Your expectations for getting everything "perfect" (in your eyes anyway) are definitely a reach.

 

History has shown that I disagree with 50%+ of your opinions, so we'll leave it at that. Thanks for the feedback though ?

Edited by ElementUser
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@ElementUsernot at all, I agree things will never be perfect, but why not strive for it to be perfect. Also if you disagree with 50% of my opinions it means you agree with 50% as well so that is fine by me. But some things I suggested are clearly way off the standard. Having the hardest hero in the game sitting close to 60% winrate is not what it should be. And maybe you can argue with me that hero doesn't need to be high winrate to be nerfed. But for example in Hearthstone; you not gonna see cards from tier 4 deck being nerfed every patch. I was aiming at shadowblade nerf with that.

In future I would like to see the bigger problems being assessed instead of focusing on stuff like Kane staff effect and such.

Other buffs/nerfs that I didn't mention are mostly fair but numbers are usually too low for me to have an opinion. But I appreciate them as well.

Looking foward to see the new Balphagore staff tho, looks fun.

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Posted (edited)

Same concept goes with Shadowblade in terms of the general design philosophy I mentioned in a previous post in this thread - Strength form is egregiously frustrating to deal with in the early to mid game. How exactly will you reasonably deal with someone that has 2k HP at level 11 or 1.5k+ HP at levels 8-10? By adding a drawback to his Strength form, we can see how he fares & can buff him appropriately according to his design (having various benefits and flaws in each form), rather than having just benefits on each form with benefits being so much obviously better in certain forms compared to others.

Edited by ElementUser
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Posted (edited)

Spellshards is way too expensive. 

Should reduce the Recipe cost ( 675 imo fair enouth ).

My most played hero is Pyro and I buy every time Spellshards as first item. 

Sad thing i will stop playing Pyro at 4.8.4.

Its really ruin my game experience.

Edited by fattythrow
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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, fattythrow said:

My most played hero is Pyro and I buy every time Spellshards as first item. 

Emphasis me. That means the item is a problem if it rolls over all other item choices.

I want to really go through this patch one piece at a time but I'll need more time to think on it and not be reactionary.

I'm sad Ichor finally got noticed as being obscene, as well as Qi. Both of them need a nice Staff upgrade to give them a little happiness.

Geo changes seem like a sidegrade, but I dislike it from a flavour and mechanical perspective as it doesn't give me the Tremors vibe the original does. I also dislike how we removed the play pattern of standing still to avoid it, I think that was a meaningful decision and actually added some interesting plays and a dynamic unlike any other hero.

Still not sold on the Kane SotM but I'll play with it and test it out before making a final decision. I expect a Balance Post on people complaining about it soon so I should prep my material.

Happy to see Ellonia get gutted, the Seige Mage is disgusting to play around simply due to projectile speeds from fog, this makes it less punishing while retaining her projectile speed.

I'll be considering more.

Edited by Hubaris

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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6 minutes ago, Hubaris said:

Emphasis me. That means the item is a problem if it rolls over all other item choices.

Its not a problem, its a play style.

Like most of people chose Runed Cleaver as first item while playing a melee carry.

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