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Hi guys, i wanna make a discuttion here about the item grimmmore. In fact, this item has a nice unique skills: magic damage life steak and cooldown reduction. However, the problem is you almost never see anyone making this item. Why? I think the most probabily hyphotesis is the high cost. Why anyoone will spend 5100 gold into this item, if has a kuldra for 5400 or hellflower for 4700? Therefore, i would suggest that the grimmore has a reduction on the cost to turn more viable to spend gold on it, since noone will spend 5100 if have itens that have so much teamfight potential with similar price. What do you guys think about it? Thanks!

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Posted (edited)

Grimoire gives a lot for surprisingly little. The cooldown reduction, the mana regeneration, the lifesteal, the burn... It does a lot in one package. Additionally, the item is built with a lot of smaller, easier to build parts.

I think that maybe 5.1K is a little much, you could do with reducing it by a bit (no more than 200 ish), but I wouldn't go overboard. Items that provide balanced options across the board should be worse than items that do one thing well... I call this the Valkyrie Line. You can't have a rounded item be superior than its competitors or else everything kind of becomes a blob of one item dominating multiple fields.

Edited by Hubaris

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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The items is 100% fine atm, it's not a must have anymore for Dr. Rep, Dampeer or Ravenor, which speaks volumes. The CD red. is super strong, it's just not a must have for any hero other than a TB or Tempest. Which both need other items to be viable in any game anyways. The item has just been kind of forgotten by most players besides Dutch that use it as a sort of meme-item for carry builds. I prefer it how it is now to how it was a "must have" have like SOTM for Hag. 

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Posted (edited)

In theory this Item might be decend, but in practical uses it just isn't, thanks to it's weird building components. You NEVER see Grimoire and it's by far the rarest item you see in the game. Even Bloodbourne Maul  walks above your way much more often.

I never felt the way, the item is a caster item. It should be an Item that benefits carries, simply because when will you ever pick a Lightbrand up? Indeed, when you build Dawnbringer, a carry item. On supports Lightbrand is useless, on Damage Dealers Lightbrand is useless (because there are Spellshards / Sand / Wind Stick, Jade Spire and Spell Sunder in the Game), on carries it is useless because the other 2 Swords are way better and more flexible.

The other 2 Elementswords on the other hand have a sure benefit and can be usefull on it's own (especially Firebrand). They can also be undone from a Frostburn and build into something usefull, when your farm is better as expected. Frostwulf and Geometers are just awesome items, so there is literally no reason to ever buy the Lightbrand first or 2nd when you are going for Dawnbringer. When you later want to undo your Dawnbringer 90% of the people end up undoing it, making the Fireblade into Geos, the Frostblade into Frostwulf and selling the useless Lightbrand because Grimoires doesn't fit carries at all.

Imo the components for Grimoire need a heavy rework. I would like to see Grimoire build out of Nomes / Spellshards / Spellsunder or something and get some little changes in it's effect that combines the above effects and make them stronger. The component Lightbrand should go in a fully new Item that benefits carries, when they undo Frostlight etc.

As it stands now, it's a nice idea of an item, but it is build from a total wrong item and that's the only single reason why you never see it. Why not making the Items from the Damage Dealers updating into Grimoire? It makes no sense to me.

Edited by cobaye
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12 hours ago, cobaye said:

Imo the components for Grimoire need a heavy rework. I would like to see Grimoire build out of Nomes / Spellshards / Spellsunder or something and get some little changes in it's effect that combines the above effects and make them stronger. The component Lightbrand should go in a fully new Item that benefits carries, when they undo Frostlight etc.

I like this

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The build up is the current one since it is supposed to be the counter part of both Geometer and Frostwolf, which also includes the Ultimate Orb.

What I really would like to see is to change the Magic Lifesteal part of the Item to a Spell Damage Lifesteal. Could open the use of the item to other heros, which would also go in line with its counterpart, since you are not hardly restrained to not buy them (Geos for the case of the dispel, Frostwolf for the active slow; while Grimoire is more binary to the idea of having magic damage)

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How about you remove the activation of the item and just increase the passive magic dmg lifesteal. I feel like the activation is a hassle to pull of correctly but thats just me that needs to "get good" maby..

Edited by nutsy
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The issue I have with grimoire is that no one buys it for the active. Everyone just thinks of the cooldown reduction. Whereas with frostwolf and geos the activatable are the purpose of buying those items. If part of the item should be changed or reworked, in my opinion it's the active portion. Maybe as simple as swapping which part gains more benefit during activation: reduce passive cooldown reduction, increase passive spellsteal, upon activation gain +X% cooldown reduction for X seconds.

That being said, the item is not as bad as you make it out to be.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Would it be possible for Grimoire to reduce the cooldown of abilities that have charges such as Gravekeeper's Q and Chipper Q? It's weird that a lot of the heroes that would get good value out of this item are crippled by the charges not getting reduced in Cooldown (or at least the tooltips don't show a change).

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I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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On 6/24/2020 at 10:15 PM, Hubaris said:

Would it be possible for Grimoire to reduce the cooldown of abilities that have charges such as Gravekeeper's Q and Chipper Q? It's weird that a lot of the heroes that would get good value out of this item are crippled by the charges not getting reduced in Cooldown (or at least the tooltips don't show a change).

I'm not 100% certain but I think this is a tooltip bug.

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16 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

Code isn't available to reduce the timer for charge-based refresh abilities.

Well that sucks. Oh well good to know at least.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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4 hours ago, ElementUser said:

Code isn't available to reduce the timer for charge-based refresh abilities.

I guess it should be done manually as Panda's Staff boost if someone suggests Grimoire to also reduce the charge-based cooldown.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

 

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No, we're not doing that because of maintainability (there are 2 other sources in the game that reduces cooldown & it's possible there may be more later). It sucks, but it's best for HoN until code changes enable proper support for it (which we have no idea how long it will take due to resources and other priorities).

 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/3/2020 at 7:43 PM, cobaye said:

In theory this Item might be decend, but in practical uses it just isn't, thanks to it's weird building components. You NEVER see Grimoire and it's by far the rarest item you see in the game. Even Bloodbourne Maul  walks above your way much more often.

I never felt the way, the item is a caster item. It should be an Item that benefits carries, simply because when will you ever pick a Lightbrand up? Indeed, when you build Dawnbringer, a carry item. On supports Lightbrand is useless, on Damage Dealers Lightbrand is useless (because there are Spellshards / Sand / Wind Stick, Jade Spire and Spell Sunder in the Game), on carries it is useless because the other 2 Swords are way better and more flexible.

The other 2 Elementswords on the other hand have a sure benefit and can be usefull on it's own (especially Firebrand). They can also be undone from a Frostburn and build into something usefull, when your farm is better as expected. Frostwulf and Geometers are just awesome items, so there is literally no reason to ever buy the Lightbrand first or 2nd when you are going for Dawnbringer. When you later want to undo your Dawnbringer 90% of the people end up undoing it, making the Fireblade into Geos, the Frostblade into Frostwulf and selling the useless Lightbrand because Grimoires doesn't fit carries at all.

Imo the components for Grimoire need a heavy rework. I would like to see Grimoire build out of Nomes / Spellshards / Spellsunder or something and get some little changes in it's effect that combines the above effects and make them stronger. The component Lightbrand should go in a fully new Item that benefits carries, when they undo Frostlight etc.

As it stands now, it's a nice idea of an item, but it is build from a total wrong item and that's the only single reason why you never see it. Why not making the Items from the Damage Dealers updating into Grimoire? It makes no sense to me.

You have some good points, but fundamentally, a big reason is that Intelligence is simply the weakest attribute in a vacuum. Strength grants survivability, which is useful to everyone. Agility grants Armor and Attack Speed, which can be useful even for intelligence heroes. Intelligence grants Mana, Mana Regen, and.....that's it

 

You also have to keep in mind the design patterns when wanting to change Lightbrand. It does have to maintain the pattern where it upgrades into an Intelligence analog of Frostwolf's Skull/Geometer's Bane with a useful active. Grimoire has its uses for burst Magic Damage (particularly AoE) nukers/carries & is more of a niche item, which is fine as it is now. There's no urgent need to change the item.

 

I would like to see a way where it fulfills the conditions of "benefits supports", because that term is vague now. Keep in mind supports are all about cost-efficient core item pickups & have a few items that they eventually will discard if they ever get farmed enough - perhaps that Grimoire & the Lightbrand line simply doesn't need to be oriented towards supports? And that it's fine as a niche item?

 

And maybe HoN's meta simply favours burst (e.g. Restoration Stone) rather than a sustained cooldown reduction that's available at all times & that low cooldown spell-spammy heroes benefit the most from Grimoire?

 

Its current function sounds fine to me. It may not be the first item you pick up, but it's a solid item if you pick up what it's actually meant for. I just don't see a solid reason to force a change when you don't have a solid proposal, and I can't think of one at the moment.

Edited by ElementUser
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the problem is the cost of it in my opinion. It has the same 5100 of geometer and frostwolf that had way better stats and active. Srsly, 5100 gold for a item like grimmore is too much. Noone in the game will try to make this item, and i tried a few times as bubbles and other heroes. 5100 is too much for grimmore since he did few for you. Just see 4750 hellflower and 5400 kuldra. The item is NEVER pick up, that should be something wrong with this item, so why i never see someone building it? 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, devoautist said:

the problem is the cost of it in my opinion. It has the same 5100 of geometer and frostwolf that had way better stats and active. Srsly, 5100 gold for a item like grimmore is too much. Noone in the game will try to make this item, and i tried a few times as bubbles and other heroes. 5100 is too much for grimmore since he did few for you. Just see 4750 hellflower and 5400 kuldra. The item is NEVER pick up, that should be something wrong with this item, so why i never see someone building it? 

What price would you buy it at? The problem is the design pattern of the item (Lightbrand + Blessed Orb), and that alone bumps the cost to 4300 at minimum.

Edited by ElementUser
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Posted (edited)

Honestly I've been experimenting a lot with the reduced cooldowns on heroes and it's incredibly powerful.

In the hands of Qi you basically get a quick W recall and increased damage. In the hands of someone like Goldenveil you basically have a permanent Q and massive mobility. On Hag you have an insanely short blink and scream. None of these even scratch the power of enhanced disables or utility like a 5.6s Cool down Electrician Ultimate. In grindy fights, Grimoire can be key between winning and losing. 

The item does work but unless you actively think about it it is hard to notice. That isn't the items fault.

Edited by Hubaris

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Posted (edited)

I always liked the item on heroes like Parallax and other heavy magic nukers and I understand it can be easily broken.

My main issue is lightbrand bring kinda lackluster due to searing which is okay to have but not really beneficial. We had patches where there was some magic lifesteal on lightbrand - in that case it was very viable but that would also effect all the other items that can be combined with lightbrand. I personally wouldn't have a problem with it being added back tho since mainly ravenor was broken and there is already a ravenor specific "nerf" on that item which could be adjusted.

I don't think the item needs to be a viable pickup for supports - IF you want to bring it a bit in the supportive direction I would propose changing the active so the effects can be transferred as a buff to other heroes (similar to nullstone).

 

15% lifesteal on lightbrand (not increasing for frozen light, searing light or dawn), 20% on grimore or something  could work.

 

The other downside of the item is the active which isn't too good either (since the item already has a lot of stuff it doesn't have to be). But I thought of something like: When off cooldown, converts your next spell to superior magic damage. I haven't thought on the impacts of that yet and whether it would be balanced or if some numbers needs to be adjusted. But I always liked the idea to have an item that to some extend makes casters more viable in later stages of the game. But maybe if such a mechanic gets added, it could also be a different (or new) item in the game.

Edited by hegelsohn
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I think that the activation part need improve or rework. For me its work fine with magic dmg increase but if you compare that effect with frostwolf or geo the grimmore isnt in the same level. if you add a buff at activation or change the effect (for exp change the dmg to superior magic dmg or change its like bubbles e) i think will be the best option bc grimmore is pretty stack with passive effects

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I still think the core design is flawed.  The cool down and magic lifesteal benefits casters.  The searing effect benefits attacking.

 This is fundamentally why I insist that the searing effect should be applied through the application of damage, not just normal attacks. This small quality of life improvement would go a long way towards Grimoire viability.

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Not sure if it will end up being just a QoL change though. Wouldn't the sear apply way too fast that way (multiple units at the same time instead of 1 per autoattack right now)?. Specially when taking stacked camps.

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1 hour ago, Bersk said:

Not sure if it will end up being just a QoL change though. Wouldn't the sear apply way too fast that way (multiple units at the same time instead of 1 per autoattack right now)?. Specially when taking stacked camps.

Stacked camps don't matter because Sear is an AoE anyway (200 radius).

Letting Sear apply to spells seems great. 

I'm not a big fan of the active as the window is sometimes awkward to use if you're not a sustained damage hero. What about rolling the lifesteal into it passively (heavily reduce the numbers of course) and let the active apply a Blind in an AoE around yourself? For balance budget we can do something like this (even though I'm pro Grimoire):

Lightbrand gives Sear, mana regen, and minor magic lifesteal (2-3%). 

Grimoire gives the bigger Sear, Sear on spell cast (could do single target to mirror Frostwolf), more mana regen, bigger lifesteal (5-7%) and an active that Blinds everyone around you.

Break the cooldown reduction to its own item, call it Hub's Hourglass for the time being. This way we can budget out the power of the item and make it more focused.

In this case the new Grimoire provides sustained survivability through the magic lifesteal and the blind effect, buying you time to get cooldowns back up and steal some more while playing on it's damage over time aspect.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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