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Is this for real? HoN ends at 20 june


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Summary right now  

Well damn... this just completely ruined my day. Honestly, I don't feel like playing HoN anymore as of right now... cause I know that no matter what I do, or whatever I might buy... it will be gone fo

It weighs heavy on my heart to login and play HoN today for the very last time. It has been the game that brought me & my friends together for years and years and im glad to have been able to pl

2 hours ago, ``Cookies`` said:

Dota 2 has tonz of invesments and 12+ years of development, no? They could make +/- balanced heroes, not only 10-15 for a season, so avatars (or arcanes, don't remember how it calls in dota) will sell better.

To loosely quote "someone" before 4.0 patch: "You need to shake things up occasionally so people don't get bored by the same balance all the time. Buffing only a couple of heroes at first more manageable than making every hero viable at the same time. Players will adjust and play different heroes because they are stronger than what they were used to play" (forgive me if that wasn't exactly what he said, but it has been a couple of years and I probably didn't read/remember it objectively, because I thought and still think this was a bad idea)

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Still waiting for HoN big comeback.. Only HoN is the best adaptation of the original DOTA.. Most of us who loved and played HoN till the last day is surely played the original DOTA and that's one of the reason why we loved HoN even a lot of the players is toxic.. HoN is like hardcore moba while DOTA2 is like a gaycore:D (CandyCrush like moba) peace Dota2 fans:D 

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(my thoughts unordered and vomited)

Honestly,  

Hon's death was long foretold As a person who was here since early beta that was closed. I knew this games death was inevitable. Its a failure on the business side of things and a very vocal toxic minority that had power. I talked with devs of other mobas and watched them rise with feedback from me and hon fall ignoring feedback from seasoned adults. The RAP and vote kick was never perfect and incredibly toxic-- the worst part was where the official rules demand you stay in a match or suffer severe consequences when you can have a 2+hour match that is incredibly 1 sided, but toxic players demanding one to continue to play. How is that fun? a game that was over at 0 min mark, forced with near loaded gun to play? Then there were the deliberate balance choices and i've seen much of it over the decades. Like engineer who went from carry and super fun but kinda op... to engi the agil support nuker... to engi with mines (arguably the most horrible decision made and trolly) then to engi sans mines (an improvement) that brought more competitive players back to hon with balance choices to improve competition... then back to "unbalance some and hope it works" where dampeer and zerker were just broken and the game felt like "pick the broken hero and win." 

The game was never noob friendly and a 1:1 update from dota 1, which could have made it compete with LOL, but it didn't.  It was too toxic and not eager to train players to play the harder game. Its why after its death all games media is not "mourning" but saying "good riddance". I said 7 years ago this game was going to die with gm and devs of HON and got chastised for such "arrogance". Friends who worked for s2 and then frostburn came and went. for the past 2 years i got to the point that I only play the game for one reason, "prove a point". Its been suffering and agony playing. and while i don't blame the devs or gm for the toxic community, they sure did foster it. In the days of vote kick we'd be winning a match and they vote kick the winning skilled player. In the days leading to death of the game, players would sandbag a competitive players cause they dislike that "they're not important". and this has been the game... 5v5 where egos of players > playing the game. I ping system upgrade was amazing, and with chat bans then it was able to be overcome. but they removed chat bans. something that should have been the go to punishment for RAP. In games where there isn't chat, isn't voice, and limited controlled communications-- the toxicity decreases. The bot ai, I worked on as a hobby trying to implement Machine learning would have been a big improvement to the game. however, the project was abandoned and never considered. where a player-ai assisted play could have helped heavily help new players understand ai. I trained new players not familiar with the game and used to lol to improve and the learning curve is vast... Take predator, one of the hardest to play heros for new players. 

I think the moment i wished for hons demise when spell shards flint was a thing and they gave him staff that was so uncompetitive and encouraging more spell shards flint thing. Or the devs saying jere is a carry ignoring meta or successful meta play. Like just cause something "can be" doesn't mean it is. Like aluna who was designed to be a carry, but so bad played as one. to the point that aluna meta became support something the hero barely excelled at compared to conventional supports. Even top tier competitive players didn't' understand counter-meta choices by game devs. like jade scepter's amp healing which was amazing at low and mid level players with healing support. Removed instead of nerfed cause it was "too good." but it fostered competition and counter play. Or the humble flint who i argue as of last patch worst hero in the game-- just never able to get up to able to get up into any level of use in any competitive sense. 

Honestly, I look back at hon as a programmer and dev myself, and say its a cautionary tale. to do much better. strive to solve problems but in a way that curves to humanity not away. My best moments with this game were before ranked matching where it was 3v3 or 2v2 with friends against others. Where strategy and teamwork were key. where sportsmanship was admired and encouraged. When bot play with friends were fun (mainly cause bots were so badly coded and given just broken advantages to hopefully help them). The game had potential, but the decisions killed it. on the business side monetization and gamification wasn't implemented in intuitive ways or aggressively enough. the micro economy felt poorly implemented and an afterthought rather than blizzard or even lol's clearly researched and advanced systems. IF frostburn comes back with a hon 2.0 etc i hope they do much much better. 

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10 hours ago, Manu311 said:

To loosely quote "someone" before 4.0 patch: "You need to shake things up occasionally so people don't get bored by the same balance all the time. Buffing only a couple of heroes at first more manageable than making every hero viable at the same time. Players will adjust and play different heroes because they are stronger than what they were used to play" (forgive me if that wasn't exactly what he said, but it has been a couple of years and I probably didn't read/remember it objectively, because I thought and still think this was a bad idea)

I dont know if that´s true dude, though a lot of people nowdays seem to express that opinion.  I think its more out of conventon than anything else. 

 

The first problem is how games are structured. Take AoE 2 (Voobly/HD/Classic) vs AoE 2 De. 
In AoE 2 ranked games were done through community spaces. So no matter what the game was kept some what "fresh" through new maps. But more importantly the community was fare more involved in the management of the game. And so being part of that community, the familiarity with the players and how it worked, the fact that there always was 5  minutes of pre-game chat before the game started and so on kept people initerested in playing - with each other. 

The new game has an automatic quick-game search , inferior replay management, stat tracking (on Voobly every player had all their replays logged - had a profile, guestbook, etc) , no pre-game chat, no way to play community created content competitively.  

So all this attention people had for each other is wasted. So to keep peoples attention filled up you have to have new buffs and nerfs, frankly more iterations of civilizations than any real balancing. 

Look at Counterstrike 1.6. The game barely received an update for a decade but was at the top of its popularity until CS Go came out and was marketed hard by Valve because it was so much more profitable.  All the individual servers and knowing the faces there, servers having their own clans that faced off against each other, the community platforms, that was enough to keep it interesting. 

 

I think the problem with modern games is they try to replace and/or control the community as much as possible.  

I know an old game I used to play called Tibia. Although there were occasional updates and expansons, it was literally the lack of land, the free market economy and the relatively lax rules on player killing that created the actual content. You had natural roles, even for people without any "roleplaying" interest, emerge. Like traders, diplomats, strategists, tacticians, etc.  People initeracted with each other, fought for land, prestige, resources.  Nowdays there´s enough land that you might never see a person if you hang out in some areas, there´s enough profit nobody needs to really kill anyone else, there´s also less to be  gained from doing so.  The economy is artificial and any supplies any player could sell you can be bought in the shop for such a low price its not worth producing them for sale anyway.

 

Basically what Im saying is that a player has indeed more of an attention span than just playing the game and filling that is important. You can keep filling it constantly with the need to adapt to not only new content but new "balance" changes. But t can be filled by community interaction too. 


Sadly fewer and fewer companies are willing to experiment with this. Even something simple as the freedom to pick your own avatar or like in CS your own spray is curtailed in modern games and replaced with often boring and generic crap you´d never put up yourself there. HoNs avatars were both rooted in the community and you had an ability to pick your own.  It added a lot to the ability to identify each other in games as some folks are very visual. The way it was done, limited through a reasonably costly upgrade, limited the moderation which was smart. 

But of course, if moderation was decentralized through community managed servers, the cost of it would go down even further.  Its perhaps not possible for a game like HoN, but it is for others.

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4 hours ago, demonpeen said:

Honestly, I look back at hon as a programmer and dev myself, and say its a cautionary tale. to do much better. strive to solve problems but in a way that curves to humanity not away.

Personally I think I've learned more for my life from HoN (not playing it, but everything around it) for my life as a developer (or rather head of other developers) than I've learned from my actual work places. Not really much in terms of programming, but in terms of decisions and priorities. I guess there is indeed more to learn from losses than from wins 😉.

3 hours ago, Ondis said:

[Lots of text]

I'm not really someone into role-playing or communicating much during games. But I still agree with your assessment.
I would love to have around 5 minutes before every game just to get to know everyone (that is willing to talk). That was the good part about lobbies before match making was working during beta (after that, took forever to get a filled up game).
Maybe not pure chat, but also some arena where you can use your heroes, test items, try combinations whatever. You could show off your avatar, explain your skills to your allies, suggest items, skillbuilds, etc if someone has questions and just get to know each other a bit better. I haven't even thought about that option before, so thanks for the idea 🙂 (again another thing learned 😄).

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13 hours ago, demonpeen said:

(my thoughts unordered and vomited)

Honestly,  

Hon's death was long foretold As a person who was here since early beta that was closed. I knew this games death was inevitable. Its a failure on the business side of things and a very vocal toxic minority that had power. I talked with devs of other mobas and watched them rise with feedback from me and hon fall ignoring feedback from seasoned adults. The RAP and vote kick was never perfect and incredibly toxic-- the worst part was where the official rules demand you stay in a match or suffer severe consequences when you can have a 2+hour match that is incredibly 1 sided, but toxic players demanding one to continue to play. How is that fun? a game that was over at 0 min mark, forced with near loaded gun to play? Then there were the deliberate balance choices and i've seen much of it over the decades. Like engineer who went from carry and super fun but kinda op... to engi the agil support nuker... to engi with mines (arguably the most horrible decision made and trolly) then to engi sans mines (an improvement) that brought more competitive players back to hon with balance choices to improve competition... then back to "unbalance some and hope it works" where dampeer and zerker were just broken and the game felt like "pick the broken hero and win." 

The game was never noob friendly and a 1:1 update from dota 1, which could have made it compete with LOL, but it didn't.  It was too toxic and not eager to train players to play the harder game. Its why after its death all games media is not "mourning" but saying "good riddance". I said 7 years ago this game was going to die with gm and devs of HON and got chastised for such "arrogance". Friends who worked for s2 and then frostburn came and went. for the past 2 years i got to the point that I only play the game for one reason, "prove a point". Its been suffering and agony playing. and while i don't blame the devs or gm for the toxic community, they sure did foster it. In the days of vote kick we'd be winning a match and they vote kick the winning skilled player. In the days leading to death of the game, players would sandbag a competitive players cause they dislike that "they're not important". and this has been the game... 5v5 where egos of players > playing the game. I ping system upgrade was amazing, and with chat bans then it was able to be overcome. but they removed chat bans. something that should have been the go to punishment for RAP. In games where there isn't chat, isn't voice, and limited controlled communications-- the toxicity decreases. The bot ai, I worked on as a hobby trying to implement Machine learning would have been a big improvement to the game. however, the project was abandoned and never considered. where a player-ai assisted play could have helped heavily help new players understand ai. I trained new players not familiar with the game and used to lol to improve and the learning curve is vast... Take predator, one of the hardest to play heros for new players. 

I think the moment i wished for hons demise when spell shards flint was a thing and they gave him staff that was so uncompetitive and encouraging more spell shards flint thing. Or the devs saying jere is a carry ignoring meta or successful meta play. Like just cause something "can be" doesn't mean it is. Like aluna who was designed to be a carry, but so bad played as one. to the point that aluna meta became support something the hero barely excelled at compared to conventional supports. Even top tier competitive players didn't' understand counter-meta choices by game devs. like jade scepter's amp healing which was amazing at low and mid level players with healing support. Removed instead of nerfed cause it was "too good." but it fostered competition and counter play. Or the humble flint who i argue as of last patch worst hero in the game-- just never able to get up to able to get up into any level of use in any competitive sense. 

Honestly, I look back at hon as a programmer and dev myself, and say its a cautionary tale. to do much better. strive to solve problems but in a way that curves to humanity not away. My best moments with this game were before ranked matching where it was 3v3 or 2v2 with friends against others. Where strategy and teamwork were key. where sportsmanship was admired and encouraged. When bot play with friends were fun (mainly cause bots were so badly coded and given just broken advantages to hopefully help them). The game had potential, but the decisions killed it. on the business side monetization and gamification wasn't implemented in intuitive ways or aggressively enough. the micro economy felt poorly implemented and an afterthought rather than blizzard or even lol's clearly researched and advanced systems. IF frostburn comes back with a hon 2.0 etc i hope they do much much better. 

I'm actually one of the players who don't vote yes on almost CC unless the opponent is a real pro players. I've played a lot of 4v5 / 3v5 games bcoz of rage quitters, wanna be pro commander and feeders. And yes we still manage to win the game even we are outnumbered and usually HON real gameplay starts after the 20-30mins not before. If you're one of the players who used to play from 40-60+mins game you're one of the players that really enjoy the game. Throwing shitty trashed talk from the start until end game vice versa, then after the game all of you will just say it's a gg nice game like nothing happen. Those are gameplay I'm missing with HoN right now. Still trying to play Dota2 but still giving me a headache might just play LoL until HoN is backed:D 

But you're right the management need to tweak most or some of their game play policy to avoid all the griefers / trolls is the game.. Hoping someone will help to funds HoN back if no one will buy it...

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On 6/23/2022 at 5:14 AM, oldschoolsil said:

Why does DOTA 2 not have a midwars??? I trede it with the workshop, but no one is playing it. Am I missing something or are they really this stupid to not have midwars que? 

I never got the point of midwars - A brainless / mindless game mode that only took away from the game. When s2 HoN was out, there was no midwars.

I don't even get why people play it or why anyone would want to. Guess it caters to the "new generation" where kids have 0 attention span and need constant spam on the screen to keep them focused rather than actual strategic gameplay.

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On 6/23/2022 at 4:00 PM, darkmasters said:

any positive news gentlemen? about servers, any possible sale of the hon to some other company...

Probably gonna take a while, but the amount of hints dropped everywhere from subreddit to here to various discords and the youtube/github stuff its probably happening. 

Wait like 6 months or somethinig if you dont have any contacts.

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16 hours ago, T23 said:

I never got the point of midwars - A brainless / mindless game mode that only took away from the game. When s2 HoN was out, there was no midwars.

I don't even get why people play it or why anyone would want to. Guess it caters to the "new generation" where kids have 0 attention span and need constant spam on the screen to keep them focused rather than actual strategic gameplay.

Mate, i'm 35 years old and started playing dota mod in warcraft. The difference is not in strategy, the difference is that you miss out on two 'boring' periodes in most FOC games: the start when its mostly about last hitting and the mid game where there is ofton not much action. In midwars the strategy is more teamfocused then in FOC, I like teamplay.  

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6 hours ago, oldschoolsil said:

Mate, i'm 35 years old and started playing dota mod in warcraft. The difference is not in strategy, the difference is that you miss out on two 'boring' periodes in most FOC games: the start when its mostly about last hitting and the mid game where there is ofton not much action. In midwars the strategy is more teamfocused then in FOC, I like teamplay.  

I must have been playing different games then 😅. 60% of MidWars games I play are basically someone hooks or someone fails to keep their distance and gets initiated on, then everyone nukes that guy with everything they have and the enemies try to take advantage of them using all their skills. Short battle and it's back to waiting for someone to make a mistake or get hooked. Around 20% are just filled of defensive waiting inside the tower and nuking with long range which make extremely boring games. And another 20% of games are just extremely one sided.

I also find the late game of HoN way more boring than the first periods where it's all about map awareness, knowing when to gank/port/farm, figuring out how to skill after assessing the current game half of the time. And I don't remember any game that was not the most action packed in the mid-game. Late game most often is just one team turtling while the other one has the better team fight/pushing capabilities and a lot of time actually turning the game similarily to MidWars. I guess that's why you prefer the late-game state, because it's a lot like MidWars. 20% boring turtle and 60% waiting for someone to step too far or get hooked into the base 😅.

Edited by Manu311
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On 6/24/2022 at 6:39 AM, T23 said:

I never got the point of midwars - A brainless / mindless game mode that only took away from the game. When s2 HoN was out, there was no midwars.

I don't even get why people play it or why anyone would want to. Guess it caters to the "new generation" where kids have 0 attention span and need constant spam on the screen to keep them focused rather than actual strategic gameplay.

Been playing HON since beta, and now that i'm older and with a kid, I find MW to be easier to play and enjoy.   Often times shorter, but more often than not, get to see a character's OPness once all items are acquired.   If anything, it's to pass the time, and demands less thinking.  After a long hard days work and taking care of baby, a 30 minute get away in MW is all I need.  My wife is a good sport, she doesn't bother me when I'm playing.

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Hi,

i have two more questions:

is there a way to tell me how much money i spent on hon? I regret nothing i just wanna know it 🙂

and 

now after hon is down, can u give us the player count numbers of the last years? After the ingame player count was hidden i was always wondering how many are still playing

 

missing hon 😞

 

Edited by RainOfChaos
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3 hours ago, RainOfChaos said:

Hi,

i have two more questions:

is there a way to tell me how much money i spent on hon? I regret nothing i just wanna know it 🙂

and 

now after hon is down, can u give us the player count numbers of the last years? After the ingame player count was hidden i was always wondering how many are still playing

 

missing hon 😞

 

1) No I don't think so. 

 

I once checked my PayPal Account and I was about 500 - 600 Dollars in the whole HoN-Lifetime. 

So it's like buying HoN to initial price each year. May be too less. 

I must say, HoN really had a fair Free2Play-concept. 

 

2) As u said, they disabled the counter. I just remember in 2011 about (so about once year after release), it were 80000 - 100000 players same time online. 

Edited by zorknemesis
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