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Magebane rework thoughts


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Definitely better/more interesting version than the agility one.

General thoughts:

His kit lacks a bit as he heavily relies on his autoattacks. While that was fine as a hardcarry, it does not fully fit his new role as initiator/tank/mageslayer. Basically he requires at least 2 core items (insa, sh) if he doesn't want to get fully kited. Until those items are obtained, he can be easily kited and disabled. The damage he provides is basically his W (120 if maxed out). This is underwhelming considering his role is played best as a core offlane hero. There are simply better pickups in most cases to contest the long lane.

So where to play him?

I tried him as suicide which worked well, tho the enemy team was quite bad therefor it was not really a meaningful try. In a dual offlane I wished to have more to work with. It was simply too easy for the enemy carry to obtain farm without really getting pressured.

In my head, he would glance if played as hardcarry still as that's the point where he is able to obtain his items and shine later on. However, that doesn't seem to fit his new role/redesign and he would probably get outcarried by superior carry heroes.

Other option would be mid but nah, that's not really an option as he has no mid potential at all (getting outboxed by any ranged mid, no life sustain, low last hit dmg etc).

 

So what does he need to fulfill his role?

As an easy one, I would higher the damage on his W. Almost every other hero has an ability to deal viable and consistent damage. 120 feels underwhelming. Considering he jumps into the enemy team and has at least 8s CD to get out again, it would be fine to double that imho.

On top, I would grant him some sort of stun/slow debuff reduction for either upon blinking in on his W or (likely better) when having his E active (not for 10s but maybe for 3-4s). This would reduce the fact that he initiates and instantly gets locked down without any further impact (until SH is picked up). The enemy would have to decide to stun him (and only stun him for like 50% of the regular duration + get some damage) or not to do so.

Another option would be to reflect the spell (similar to dota2 mechanic and prior ichor mechanic).

 

Overall I think transitioning him into a tank/initiator was the right move but some tweaks are required that he feels strong enough to pick him up and to prevent him falling back into the carry-style hero he was used to be.

Edited by hegelsohn
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Thanks for the feedback...

My initial concerns were the following prior to his release:

  • He would snowball out of control if his scaling wasn't kept in check somehow, and if his DPS and mobility for out-of-enemy-hero-combat situations weren't toned down (otherwise he'd be encouraged to play the same way as before, pure rice-farming, when that's not his greatest strength now)
  • His W blink mechanic would be too oppressive in lane because of its low mana & cooldown spent, compared to other heroes and their mana cost to damage ratios

However, there was no way of knowing these results until it was released live, due to the level of resources available (even after hearing feedback from competitors & high level players prior to its release). Also, even after the patch notes went live, nobody actually knew how he would do until they actually tried him.

 

Here are the preliminary changes to Magebane for the next patch (whenever that is) - still subject to change, of course:

Quote

Magebane
- Base Strength increased from 21 to 22.
- Strength growth per level increased from 2.4 to 2.5.
- Agility growth per level increased from 1.4 to 1.6.
- Intelligence growth per level increased from 1.5 to 2.

Flash of Anti-Magic
- Cooldown reduced from 12 seconds to 10 seconds.
- Cast Range increased from 500/600/700/800 to 600/700/800/900.
- Damage changed from 30/60/90/120 Physical Damage to 50/80/110/140 Magic Damage.
- Anti-Magic Damage Shield health increased from 30/60/90/120 to 40/70/100/130.
- Radius increased from 350 units to 450 units.
- Now also triggers the passive self-benefits of Master of the Mantra (if it is leveled) if an enemy hero is within the destination's radius of this ability.

Master of the Mantra
- Now only requires 1 attack against enemy heroes to grant Magebane all of its passive benefits (Attack Speed and ally Magic Damage Resistance), instead of 2/3/4/5 attacks.
- Mana Cost for the active ability reduced from 65/80/95/110 to 45/60/75/90.

+ Magebane felt a little sluggish and underwhelming at a few specific phases of the game. These areas have been smoothened out, so Magebane is able to do what he is intended to do at each phase of the game, while still ensuring his late-game has reasonable counterplay.

 

The issue is less his overall damage output in lane, and moreso the exact type of mechanic on in-enemy-hero-combat. He took too long to bring these benefits out, and was a little bit clunky (not to mention the over-reliance on leveling W due to its level 1 range being so low).

Increasing the range of W by a bit allows him to keep 1-2 points in W viably.

==========

 

For his overall direction: it is best to keep him closer to his original iteration, but changing his power scaling throughout the game (much better early & mid game, in exchange for it being weaker & less oppressive late game) while discouraging his previous rice-farm play patterns. This maintains Magebane's original identity as a hero,  while giving him the tools he needs to succeed throughout the game without bringing back why he was frustrating to play with on your team.

 

If it was desired that he would be reworked towards being just a "tanky initiator" hero, he needs his Q & R completely changed & that would ruin the hero's original identity. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but with the current state of the game I don't think that's the way to go. I also could not get that level of rework in on such a short notice either.

 

Also, introducing innate CC reduction has a bunch of flaws (see Drunken Master & the previous frustration when playing against him) - and enough heroes have intrinsic Magic Immunity/CC reduction already, when this is not what I want Magebane to do. You only think he needs it because of his Q functionality linking to his autoattacks, but he actually does not - that is what his new E active (the Mana Flare part of it) is for. What my upcoming changes do is allow Magebane to viably max E early on because of the range changes to W & the mechanical changes to W & E.

Edited by ElementUser
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I don't get how you guys were able to make a hero who was already shitty even shitter.

You guys just amaze me on how you decide changes. You made a hero who was already niche to extremely fucking niche.

A list of things that just amaze me on how retarded the hero is now.

1. Why the fuck would you nerf his range on his W. Why would you even fucking keep the blink. The fucks the point of having a blink on a hero who can literally do nothing else but auto attack when he blinks in. What initiation ability does he have? What is he supposed to do? Was it your idea that he just blink in and activate an aura and start auto attacking like a useless fucking gnome? What's stopping the enemy team from simply just walking away from him since he's gonna do jack shit anyways.

2. The fuck is the point of having a hero who is just solely tanky to magic damage. He's just gonna get shat on by any early high physical damage heroes.

3. Literally destroyed the synergy of being an agility hero and having mana burn. Guess what, that indirectly makes his ultimate even that much shittier.

 

What have you changed? Literally fucking nothing. He's still a hero who just walks around and auto attacks and annoys people by draining their mana. 

Like this isn't even an issue of tweaking numbers. You guys just went full retard just for the sole reason of changing things up in the game.

Great fucking job making a hero that was already useless even more useless.

 

Edited by fid1
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Chill fid1, 

calm your titties 🙂.

In general I like the idea of the rework. Heroes with Burst and high manapool need to be aware of their positioning and how they spent their mana. 

To make the hero more active and ennjoyable to play i would propose the following 2 additions. At the moment the hero feels like: I blink onto an enemy, I autoattack and i click "E" for once and the spells are active as long as i live.  Further, it feels a little bit stupid as his Q isnt snyergizing well with a slow attackspeed. 

1) Make his "Q" also active clickable, the way it was original in warcraft 3 demon hunter: Burns x + x% mana. After using the spell no mana is burned passively on autoattacks for i.e. 20-30 seconds. This way he would have a nullstone remover but have to consider the usage of the skill wisely. Besides he can use this skill early on in a suic lane where he is getting boxed out else!!!

2) Make his "E" as a placeable ward, which can be destroyed or runs out after i.e. 15 seconds (like the pugna ward). This way he can position it in a push/anti-push or a kongor defense, while giving the enemies the oppurtunity to destroy it. The spell should be more rewarding if well placed properly. 

 

Cheers Physiker / Pubzstomp3r   

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I think E should more or less remain as it is. The range should be highered a bit but he basically already is a moving pugna ward (which is extremely strong) and his main damage source. Finding pugna wards in the trees is even more annoying on dota2 so i would really not like to see that mechanic in HoN.

I think he has his niche and can be picked up among with an initiating mid laner (e.g. bubbles, bomb, krak etc). Surely adjustments will be made to make sure that he will have his presence in the game.

People gotta think of skilling the hero differently. With the planned changes it likely makes more sense to max out E over Q.

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Well I just got 11-0 as a mid Magebane against a mid Soulstealer while his teammates were ganking. I built tanky into HotBL, plated greaves, shaman's headdress and Frostwolf's Skull, stood at around 500 gpm during the game. Enemy had Pharaoh with a hellflower to initiate on me, and an enemy parasite to burst me down. I survived all of the encounters.

It's different than what people or what I was used to. It's good in its own way. The farming isn't very good, I struggled to clear a medium camp or a stacked small camp even when I had reached Frostwolf's Skull-tier gear, so I spent most of my time farming the lane or heroes and avoiding the jungle entirely. My autoattack damage was +-100 per hit, mostly I was relying on my E and my Manaburn+Ultimate to deal sustained damage during an encounter, which was racking up quite nicely due to my survivability. Enemies were struggling to escape from the Frostwolf's Skull slow + Toxin Claws + W.

However, I had a few encounters where I was completely destroyed mid as Magebane. Mostly when I was against fully physical heroes that don't rely on their manapool too much to deal damage (Kraken, Rally, Deadwood).

I think offlane Magebane was and still is only useful when the enemy team has at least one core mana-based hero in their lineup. (Parallax, Oogie, Doctor Repulsor), or at the very least a heavily mana-reliant core hero (Pyromancer, Hag).

I think the new Magebane fulfills his role quite well, and the changes that I read above will address most of the issues he is currently facing.

I personally would like him to be able to farm more efficiently (or at least last-hit more accurately) and to have more resilience towards physical damage, but I suppose he's more oriented towards hero kills rather than neutral farming now.

 

p.s. the new animations for E and W are sick

Edited by Lunarios
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5 hours ago, fid1 said:

I don't get how you guys were able to make a hero who was already shitty even shitter.

You guys just amaze me on how you decide changes. You made a hero who was already niche to extremely fucking niche.

A list of things that just amaze me on how retarded the hero is now.

1. Why the fuck would you nerf his range on his W. Why would you even fucking keep the blink. The fucks the point of having a blink on a hero who can literally do nothing else but auto attack when he blinks in. What initiation ability does he have? What is he supposed to do? Was it your idea that he just blink in and activate an aura and start auto attacking like a useless fucking gnome? What's stopping the enemy team from simply just walking away from him since he's gonna do jack shit anyways.

2. The fuck is the point of having a hero who is just solely tanky to magic damage. He's just gonna get shat on by any early high physical damage heroes.

3. Literally destroyed the synergy of being an agility hero and having mana burn. Guess what, that indirectly makes his ultimate even that much shittier.

 

What have you changed? Literally fucking nothing. He's still a hero who just walks around and auto attacks and annoys people by draining their mana. 

Like this isn't even an issue of tweaking numbers. You guys just went full retard just for the sole reason of changing things up in the game.

Great fucking job making a hero that was already useless even more useless.

 

Did you read the patch notes? 

Based on your post history on Ichor, I don't expect to take much of your feedback seriously if all you're going to do is insult the developers and designers. 

I'm pretty sure you don't know how to read based on what you posted in the past. 

Edited by ElementUser
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Since someone already made sort of a rage post, I also like to give some suggestion with less justified reason but I think this suggestion will improve his performance greatly:

Spoiler

Mana Combustion

  • Can be activate to apply 3 attacks with armor penetration equals to percentage of target's missing mana for 8 seconds.
  • Has 20 seconds cooldown and every attack to unit with mana reduces its cooldown by 1 second.

Thought Process:

  • Sometimes Magebane feels less menacing and more an annoyance to low mana opponent when his ultimate is on cooldown.
  • This change helps Magebane slightly contributing against Agility heroes on dealing portion of their health because mostly they have high armor but low mana.

Flash of Anti-Magic

  • Charge effect on Master of the Mantra belongs to this ability and area effect of this ability belongs to Master of the Mantra.
  • No longer deal area damage, slow effect, and cooldown reduction.
  • Grants Magebane 12/15/18/21% Bonus Movement Speed for 2 seconds upon reaching destination, prolonging the effect by 1 second per attack on enemy hero by a maximum 6 seconds of total duration.

Thought Process:

  • Current charge effect on Master of the Mantra feels disconnected because Master of the Mantra provides no gap closer so it needs another ability to work.
  • This change helps Magebane to narrow down which ability should be leveled for optimal performance on each game stage.

Master of the Mantra

  • New aura effect: applies 20% Movement Speed Reduction to enemy unit in radius until they cast an ability to temporarily remove the slow for 2 seconds.
  • Change magic damage based of mana spent from aura to mana combustion based on 15/25/35/45% mana spent by affected enemy, dealing 60% of combusted mana as Magic Damage.

Thought Process:

  • The change of aura helps Magebane depleting their opponent mana by their own action.

Mana Rift

  • Apply 1.5 second stun and mana combustion by 100% Magebane's Base Damage, dealing 60% of combusted mana as True Damage.
  • Mana Rift burst damage comes later after stun effect ends.

Thought Process:

  • This change seems nerf his surprise burst because of opponent's careless but it is overall a buff because it provides strong lockdown and scaling damage on Magebane's side.

 

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

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Those heroes you spoke of are successful reworks, in the sense that they have some unique niche now while their old frustration problems are resolved. Not to mention that they can be properly balanced. 

 

Magebane is the same except he's just underpowered now. He will be fixed next Thursday.

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6 minutes ago, donejohn said:

most people i talked with did not like the rework on Nitro and Adrenaline. And those heroes are at the bottom of the hero usage list for a reason (they suck)

Looking forward to playing magebane next Thursday 🙂

 

They were never going to be popular, balanced & relatively frustration-free in the first place with their original designs. Changing those heroes were low-risk, and I'm fine with them being unpopular if they fill a unique niche properly. At least they are balanced now & have proper counterplay while doing the things they were intended to do.

Edited by ElementUser
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