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Why limit Bramble's Chomp's Damage?


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I really don't understand why bramble's chomp damage needed to be nerfed for Mid Wars. 

Please consider the following arguments:

  1. It takes a considerable amount of assists/kills + several HP/strength items for bramble to obtain a large HP pool. 
    • For numbers, it takes 10k HP for bramble to chomp 1k magic damage.
    • Bramble does not easily or consistently achieve 10k+ HP in a MW game.
    • If one chooses to aim to build a high HP bramble, it's probably necessary that he buy several HP based items which sacrifices several item slots which limits his gameplay versatility. So its not a guaranteed that bramble in MW would reach 10k+ hp and become something really imbalanced.
    • In instances where bramble is able to reach 10k+ hp, it would probably be a really extended 1 hour + MW game and by that time, the game would be over in a few more final fights.
  2. There are many ways to deal with a bramble that has a high HP pool.
    • The damage from chomp via large HP pool is not even a threat when the enemy team has percentage-based damage to counter all his high HP (eg. riftshards, spell sunder, predator's passive, martyr's ult)
    • Additionally, there are many defensive ways to deal with a high HP bramble as well.
      • Eg. slows, stuns, illusions, disarm, shrunken head
    • So any player with a decent understanding of the game would know how to counter a high HP bramble easily. 
  3. I thought it was established that skill specific balance changes would NOT be made for Mid Wars.
    • If something as small as bramble's chomp need to be limited. Then I would argue that there are many commonly banned heroes in MW that could use some limiter as well. For example:
  4. If the issue is that chomp does too much damage when his HP pool reaches 10k+, then I would argue that there are many other heroes that easily output more magic damage on a reliable and consistent basis (eg. Sapphire's shard with riftshards, Thunderbringer's cloud, Artesia's ult, Parallax's ult)
    • Additionally, we can speak about other heroes such as Tarot's ability to annihilate the entire team by mid to late MW game OR Vindi's ability to disrupt and stop every team fight and destroy every hero by mid to late game. 

So, in comparison to some of the most 'broken' heroes for the MW mode, I don't see why bramble's one chomp ability needs to be limited. Please release the limit on Bramble's chomp. 

 

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Ask @Sliferjam 😃 he requested it and I agree with him.

Damage scales way faster on Bramble through this mechanic than any other permanent stat mechanic. That's why. And Bramble is still a menace even with this limitation - still a top tier MW hero. 

 

No need for changes. 

Edited by ElementUser
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So let me get this straight. Heroes and abilities that are broken, every single game, by nature of the MW mode is OK, but a hero that has a mechanic that, agreed, has a strong scale potential,

BUT ONLY IF ALL THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE MET, needs to be nerfed:

  • IF he gets Staff or IF his teammate staffs him
  • IF he gets several high cost big strength or HP items
  • AND requires a significant amount of kills/assist
    • which is NOT GUARANTEED 
    • AND COULD ONLY happen in MW
      • IF the game goes WELL
        • AND LONG (~40-60min+) enough for bramble's team to rack up that many kills/assist

In the absence of these conditions, bramble's chomp mechanic MAY NOT EVEN result in any actual 'brokenly unlimited' damage benefit in any given game.

Additionally,

  • Bramble can be countered countless ways as detailed in my initial post above
    • I forgot to add -armor in my initial post
  • Bramble's chomp becomes a DOUBLE EDGE SWORD in the event that the enemy team has HP% based damage heroes or items.
    • so the bigger the HP, the bigger he is as a liability due to HP% based damage heroes or items

So we're essentially choosing to limit a mechanic that MAY scale to an 'rare degree' given that at least 7+ conditions are met, which may probably only last a few minutes or fight at the end of a 40-60min MW game. Meanwhile not limiting anything else that is inherently broken in the MW mode (which there are plenty~~~).

People may choose or pick Bramble because it CAN BECOME strong, but the potential of this unlimited mechanic is NOT GIVEN, it is EARNED through a long game of endurance. However, there are way more heroes and abilities that 'brokenly' set the tone and pace of the game the moment they are picked. So in comparison to these heroes, bramble's unlimited mechanic potential is nothing. 

The nature of the MW mode is that given the single lane, boosted gameplay conditions and grouping up of 10 heroes results in some pretty insane exploits for some heroes. That is why many of us enjoy this mode. It can be broken at times for fun or for suffer. This is the nature of MW and we get it.

You said in a prior post of mine in regards to my argument about Flint, the most banned and picked heroes in MW, that we can't have a separate balance set for MW. Yet, we have done just that here. So if we have decided that we are going down the path of limiting some of exploits of MW, then I would argue that we are setting a precedent here, and perhaps we should start a discussion on what else we should put a limit on in MW.  

Edited by MoreMeds
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The difference is that this change applies to FoC too. It's just very unlikely it will happen there. So what I said is still true, and my changes still obey every design rule/guideline in the past. 

I still can't adjust heroes like Flint, Devo, Artillery etc., in a way that nerfs them for most of the game in MW without touching FoC. Can you think of one? 😃

Also, Bramble pretty broken anyway because of how good her W is. 

 

Edited by ElementUser
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I guess I'm not getting my point across well. I'm not exactly saying that we should really open a discussion on MW limits here.

What I'm really trying to figure out is why even open this can of worms?

You made it pretty clear that hero balances are made for FoC, and not for MW. Ok got it. Community makes peace with the heroes as they are for MW and all the chaotic broken shit that comes along with it, which includes all the broken Tier 1 heroes in this mode, PLUS an occasion wildcard high HP bramble (a hero that isn't even an 'always pick OR ban' hero). 

I would really love to see the MW statistics on:

  • how often people even pick bramble
  • the average HP of bramble at the end of each MW game
  • the win rate 

What is so unfair about an occasional high HP bramble that made it require a gameplay-changing nerf? Alright, his damage via *only staffed* chomp may be scaling overly fast. I don't know the exact numbers but let's accept that is true for the sake of this argument.

So then, who else has damage that is scaling too fast? What rate was it scaling at? Is there another hero that comes in contention? Should we start analyzing the entire hero pool?

Could we factor in the probability that bramble is able to utilize this overly high damage-growth-factor in any particular game? Because I reckon, based on my points above that this probability is incredibly low.

Unless...., we're acknowledging that some things in MW are broken and need to be changed but as long as the change doesn't affect FoC, balance changes can be made? How about this then, could we make buffs to heroes as long as the changes don't affect FoC as well? 

Now that the door is open to make changes to MW on the condition that it doesn't affect FoC, my question is now, what kind of gameplay experience are we trying to create for the MW mode? What else about the MW experience that needs to be changed? What are the conditions for changes to occur? 

And thus, I agree with your stance against my Flint argument, don't make hero balance changes for MW, period. Release the limit on bramble's chomp. Let MW be the wild game mode that it is and embrace all of its broken metas. 

Edited by MoreMeds
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Moremeds,

First of all, I understand your frustrations, as a fellow Bramble player, let's analyse two of the main points you're concerned with, and please correct me if I'm wrong - I may be oversimplifying it, but here are the points:

  1. Brambles Chomp should be reverted because it needs a set amount of factors to be deemed overpowered.
  2. EU previously said balance won't be influenced by Midwars.

I'm unfortunately not down to get into a long drawn out argument, my days of theory crafting, hypotheticals and conversations that lead to inevitably no where are long done so I apologise in advance.

Brambles Chomp should be reverted because it needs a set amount of factors to be deemed overpowered.

Regardless of factors that influence the opportunity to become overpowered, the fact that it can exist without a tradeoff is what makes it overpowered - in this scenario, we can see Bramble benefitting from a large HP pool affects an auto-attack damage output. There are three beneficiaries of this: more HP makes him harder to kill, getting STR based items increases his base damage, getting more STR items also increases his effectiveness of output auto-attack damage with his passive skill. The difference between other heroes, such as Tarot - is she does not benefit from also being harder to kill, her glass cannon build for damage output is mitigated by total HP of item choices to achieve such a feat. 

EU previously said balance won't be influenced by Midwars.

This is a rare situation where an exemption must be made - as this can directly influence a FoC match without its capped potential. Make no mistake, this is one of the rare times an exemption can be made, but there has been plenty of QoL changes in FoC balance that has affected Midwars (looking at shellshocks' rolling ability) but not as blatantly obvious as this change.

I appreciate the conversation, but you have not swayed me over to requesting a revert to the skill, Bramble is still an extremely viable hero in Midwars and this balance I felt is justified with the games felt both versing and playing it.

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