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Any chance of us taking the jungle out of hon? Dota 2 did it a long time ago and it worked very well.

I'm not comparing, I'm just saying it worked.

I mean, it's not fun and absolutely it is not the purpose of the game.

 

Kinda frustrating to see people picking heroes like salomon, solstice and legionnaire to literally sit afk for 20~25 min at jungle  while the team plays a 4v5.

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7 minutes ago, no_puedo_mas said:

Any chance of us taking the jungle out of hon? Dota 2 did it a long time ago and it worked very well.

I'm not comparing, I'm just saying it worked.

I mean, it's not fun and absolutely it is not the purpose of the game.

 

Kinda frustrating to see people picking heroes like salomon, solstice and legionnaire to literally sit afk for 20~25 min at jungle  while the team plays a 4v5.

Before anything else I see this as a problem of the community/player and not the game.

I mean if they are afk in the jungle they would probably afk farm their lane, too. And In addition probably let you die when you are in danger on the lane.

And from the heroes you mentioned nonen of them is needed to farm for 20mins. They can easily gank before and help the team a lot.

Personally I try to help people when I jungle and when someone else is in jungle I try to ask them for help if needed. If they refuse to do anything you can still report them for refusing to participate. (if they really refuse to do anything except farming in jungle)

Communication and cooperation is key. If they lack it anyway, they would lack it on the lane, too.


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Entirely or just going there during the laning phase?

FB has been trying to discourage people from going jungle early for quite some time. And it's rarely worth it to still play jungle. But people even play Pred jungle at level 1. So removing early jungle is easier said than done.

Removing the jungle entirely would force a lot of rebalancing to happen. In fact probably way more than FB can handle in a reasonable time. New map, a lot of performance changes for most heroes, etc.

So I don't really see much of a chance here.
Also: We kinda want to keep some distinctions from DotA 2, don't we? I mean if HoN becomes the same as DotA 2, why not just play DotA 2?

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Hon is better.

I mentioned what Dota 2 did with the early jungle because it worked. Worked very well.

I'm not talking about one or two players, i'm talking about jungle in general. 

17 minutes ago, Manu311 said:

Entirely or just going there during the laning phase?

FB has been trying to discourage people from going jungle early for quite some time. And it's rarely worth it to still play jungle. But people even play Pred jungle at level 1. So removing early jungle is easier said than done.

Removing the jungle entirely would force a lot of rebalancing to happen. In fact probably way more than FB can handle in a reasonable time. New map, a lot of performance changes for most heroes, etc.

So I don't really see much of a chance here.
Also: We kinda want to keep some distinctions from DotA 2, don't we? I mean if HoN becomes the same as DotA 2, why not just play DotA 2?

There must be a way to make these heroes unable to make the jungle in lvl 1, it remains to be seen if there is anyone interested in doing this.

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1 hour ago, no_puedo_mas said:

There must be a way to make these heroes unable to make the jungle in lvl 1

They took away Lifesteal from Pred. He has no more reason why he could be considered jungle. And still people play him jungle.

The point I'm trying to make is: You can make heroes as bad as you want, people will still believe they can be played that way because they saw it in a video from 3 years ago.
Afk-jungle is already always less beneficial than 2 1 2 (or active jungle). If a team with an afk-sols or afk-legio wins the game, it's never because of those heroes, they might finish the game, but without better player on their team, the game would have been lost.

I get that it's frustrating to have Jungler in your team - I'm usually banning only jungle heroes for that very reason - but tbh I wouldn't want to dual lane with those people that pick afk-jungle either. They are a handicap no matter what they play - why not let them take their jungle and let the good players win the game.

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I kinda like the variety it brings. A jungler can win you 2 lanes (likely mid and short) if played actively. If the suicide doesn't feed too badly it's quite viable. Legio/Parasite hit level 6 at 4 min mark which is a huge threat. Leg can have a 9min PK if uncontested. Winning 2 out of 3 lanes wins at least the early game. 

I do agree that heroes like salo, draco, ra should not be able to jungle. But core junglers like legi, para, sols, oph, temp and kotf can do really well jungling while being a threat early on.

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@Manu311

17 hours ago, Manu311 said:

The point I'm trying to make is: You can make heroes as bad as you want, people will still believe they can be played that way because they saw it in a video from 3 years ago.
Afk-jungle is already always less beneficial than 2 1 2 (or active jungle). If a team with an afk-sols or afk-legio wins the game, it's never because of those heroes, they might finish the game, but without better player on their team, the game would have been lost.

That's exactly the same impression I have of jungling, but in general.

17 hours ago, Manu311 said:

I get that it's frustrating to have Jungler in your team - I'm usually banning only jungle heroes for that very reason [...]

Banning jungle heroes is an interesting option. I would like to do it a bit more focussed though, banning favourite jungle heroes on bad players on my team.

17 hours ago, Manu311 said:

[...] - but tbh I wouldn't want to dual lane with those people that pick afk-jungle either. They are a handicap no matter what they play - why not let them take their jungle and let the good players win the game.

Because you will be in a 4v5 most of the game. Without the extra gold. And to assume you have an extremely good player on the team who makes up for two (mid in the best case) is pretty bold.

@hegelsohn

9 hours ago, hegelsohn said:

I do agree that heroes like salo, draco, ra should not be able to jungle. But core junglers like legi, para, sols, oph, temp and kotf can do really well jungling while being a threat early on.

Hm, on Salo, it's the enemies team own freaking fault if they let him farm all game. You have to adjust, or Salo will get obnoxiously fat late. I like the math aspect of him to punish enemies who let him grow.

I admired Ophelia for that winrate since I play HoN. If i could micro accordingly, I would play her more often.

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43 minutes ago, Falk1 said:

Because you will be in a 4v5 most of the game. Without the extra gold. And to assume you have an extremely good player on the team who makes up for two (mid in the best case) is pretty bold.

 

That's true. You're in the worse position. However in most public games every team gets bad players. If the bad player just sits afk in jungle instead of feeding somewhere, it can be beneficial.

46 minutes ago, Falk1 said:

I admired Ophelia for that winrate since I play HoN. If i could micro accordingly, I would play her more often.

That's easily explained:
Ophelia is no fun if you're not able to play her, so less bad players will play her. You can play her decently even without micro if you go full support-build. But bad players don't like support either. So that won't happen either.
Of course Ophelia is also a pretty strong hero (if you know how).

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My vote is no thanks. Some people enjoy the game play of jungling, sorry you don't. I think it is in a pretty good spot right now, a bad player is going to be equally a detriment to your team whether in the jungle doing nothing or in lane getting wrecked and feeding.

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Jungle role is not more problematic than any other role. What drives this behaviour you see as a problem? A player feels the best way to play the game is by farming gold and avoiding engagements above all other objectives. They may feel their chances of winning are better the more gold they accumulate. This shows a distrust in the team's ability to win, and on the other hand, a confidence in their ability to win if they are the top earner. When they lose, this might actually reinforce their assumptions, since they didn't participate, so in a twisted way, they were not part of the losing effort. They were trying to earn as much gold as possible, which we established earlier, is the best chance they believed they had for winning. So the player plays the way he thinks is the best way to win, and the rest of the team loses the match.

This is a problem with the pilot, not the hero or the role. Hon is a very dynamic game. It punishes static, non-responsive play. Hon is also a team game. Help your teammate. Even the assholes. Encourage them to do the right thing isntead of flaming them for doing the wrong thing. There are no winners in a flame war.

 

 

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I'm not talking about good or bad players, i'm talking about the afk ones wich pick a jungler and NEVER participate.

Doesn't matter if he's good or bad, this game is not suposed to be played against creeps, this is a MOBA. We all know what should be done in a moba, being afk for 15~20~25 or 42 minutes, as they just did in my game is not the purpose of this game. It is not the purpose of any MOBA.

 

This has been a problem since the early days of the game, other MOBA as i already mentioned did a good work and took the jungle out of early game.

I'm just asking anyone who is interested in making hon better to do the same here.

 

The chance is remote, I know, but it never hurts to come to the forum and make a suggestion to make the game better.

 

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1 hour ago, no_puedo_mas said:

I'm not talking about good or bad players, i'm talking about the afk ones wich pick a jungler and NEVER participate.

Doesn't matter if he's good or bad, this game is not suposed to be played against creeps, this is a MOBA. We all know what should be done in a moba, being afk for 15~20~25 or 42 minutes, as they just did in my game is not the purpose of this game. It is not the purpose of any MOBA.

 

This has been a problem since the early days of the game, other MOBA as i already mentioned did a good work and took the jungle out of early game.

I'm just asking anyone who is interested in making hon better to do the same here.

 

The chance is remote, I know, but it never hurts to come to the forum and make a suggestion to make the game better.

I actually think this would be a good idea. Make the creeps appear at min 5 (to make sure nobody afk's until then) or min 10. Will encourage players to communicate, set up good plays in order to win the early. From there on there is no reason to stop if it has been going well. Cut the enemies farm off by camping the jungle. Or try to defend your owns. If it doesn't go well, just 5 mins to a probable concede if the creeps appear at min 10. Not much time a griefer could spend afk in the jungle, and he'll get probably rather get killed then actually doing profit.

I'm in favour.

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The probIem is not peopIe pIaying jungIe but that nobody beIow 1700 rating is abIe to pIay suicide Iane. JungIe is good sometimes, for exampIe pick an opheIia or parasite to heIp win shortIane vs strong manup Iane. Or pick 4 earIy game heroes and have a wiIdsouI in woods that freefarms 15mins and wins the game.

So probIem is not the jungIe but the pIayers being bad.

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5 hours ago, no_puedo_mas said:

I'm not talking about good or bad players, i'm talking about the afk ones wich pick a jungler and NEVER participate.

Excuse me? How is that not the quality of a bad player?

 

1 hour ago, Froschbein said:

The probIem is not peopIe pIaying jungIe but that nobody beIow 1700 rating is abIe to pIay suicide Iane. JungIe is good sometimes, for exampIe pick an opheIia or parasite to heIp win shortIane vs strong manup Iane. Or pick 4 earIy game heroes and have a wiIdsouI in woods that freefarms 15mins and wins the game.

So probIem is not the jungIe but the pIayers being bad.

I have 70+% winrate on my suicide hag. I'm a 1500-1600 player.

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Posted (edited)

They already did what you ask. The current meta is 2-1-2. The possibilities of you winning a game against a good team who is playing 2-1-2, and you have a jungler are low.  So its a matter of how bad a player is. Some times you maybe get a super active jungler and win you the game easily as said above.
Some of the things that give ur team the disadvantage when u have a jungler are currently:
1) You get a short farm carry having a contested lane, against super combos that are not messing around( panda shaman, shaman elephant, midas magmus, andromeda panda, midas lodestone, and so many more) . Whilst doing that  the opponent carry is free farming. He gets his farming item, and also gets a stacked woods to jump right into.
2) Opponent support is getting farmed also, and your teams support is not
3) If you are in a lineup of a suicide valkery against a puppet and a voodoo support, as puppet can handle a 1v1 with valkery, they maybe trilane you and destroy your lane and your woods and even your mid 😄
So jungle actually works better on TMM games or with a team with really good players. Note though TMM games i mostly mean low-medium rated games. We do see jungle also in high TMM but  3 out of 5 times its propably a loss.

So im against removing completely jungle by nerfing it even more for these  reasons:
1) we have players ( i have friends actually) who just finish their work,log into HoN and play woods. They enjoy it. And as i said in low medium TMM aint so much of a problem. I can say the chances of winning the game are 50-50. And as our biggest number of players are there, i guess it will be bad to remove an aspect they actually do enjoy to play.
2) Having a jungler in a good game , with good players, , is like getting a bad carry player in your team. As that player cant understand how much advantage not going to woods will give you. Its the same as having someone who is playing carry and cant understand how to play his role  correctly.So you just got a bad player in your team. He just came into the form of a jungler instead of an insta caller : short farm carry 
3) I actually do play woods also when i need some chill time ^^
4) Hon is not Dota 2. Most people come into suggestions and have Dota 2 as a comparison. You cant compare the two games, at the moment they are heading in different roads in their life in all aspects. Some minor things , some balances on heroes , items ,and things like that , its not bad to copy them from Dota 2, but not everything.We are HoN.

Summing it up, (and im not even sure i mentioned everything, i just woke up, drinking my coffee and getting ready to go to work)
The current meta doesn't favor junglers in HoN. Players though are not forced to not pick woods. HoN gives the option to actually use maybe your brain and pick whatever hero you have to pick for to win a game. If sometimes that hero can be a jungler why not.  And i like the freedom to that. 

AND ... i love HON , 

Edited by doctornik
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9 hours ago, no_puedo_mas said:

this game is not suposed to be played against creeps, this is a MOBA.

That's only true if you put a "only" before "against creeps". Farming - and knowing when to farm - is a big and important part.

8 hours ago, Falk1 said:

I actually think this would be a good idea. Make the creeps appear at min 5

That would take a lot of my personal fun out of the early game. Usually - especially against suicide - I have two tripple stacks ready for my carry. What would I do while the suicide player keeps tower-hugging?
I mean ganking is a valid option, but if it's the only option, mid is going to expect that.

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5 hours ago, Manu311 said:

That would take a lot of my personal fun out of the early game. Usually - especially against suicide - I have two tripple stacks ready for my carry. What would I do while the suicide player keeps tower-hugging?
I mean ganking is a valid option, but if it's the only option, mid is going to expect that.

I feel you man, since I play a lot of support myself.

One option would be to constantly attack the own creeps below 50%. Another option would be to pick a support with a strong pull, like Plague Rider. This would punish tower hugging since there would be no creeps in range to leech experience from and if he attempts to leech give a probably easy kill.

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Posted (edited)

Totally down for removing jungling, for most the reasons mentioned (by making jungle creep spawn at 1:00 instead of 00:30). This is a team game and when someone jungles it becomes a 4v5 for at least 10 minutes, these first 10 minutes being incredibly important and likely decide the game.

If you enjoy killing jungle creep for 10 minutes, I'm not sure why you're playing a team game (I would give an example of a more appropriate game, but I have no interest in games like that).

On top of this suicide lane is no longer viable at all, considering the edge orb of zamos gives the opponent (mms and damage). There are also certain lane combinations that are simply impossible to lane against, berz can shut down any suic, besides accursed, but then there's a support's spells to consider as well (shoutout to andro and her 56% wr).

Suicide is not at all enjoyable, especially when you consider you queue'd up for a team game and are now left to fend for yourself entirely for 10 minutes while some emo kid sits and hits creep in the jungle (for level 5 by 8 mins).

Heavy roaming as the suicide can be fun, but then you're just giving the enemy carry freefarm which more often than not, comes back to bite you in the ass.

Lastly, going dual long lane is great, because you're utilising orb of zamos and applying pressure to the enemy's shortfarm, but also more simply, you're playing as a team and are having more fun.

Edited by TehNubZar
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Forgive my ignorance here... how did Dota2 "remove" the jungle?

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Toxicity breeds toxicity.  Break the cycle.

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55 minutes ago, MacroHard said:

Forgive my ignorance here... how did Dota2 "remove" the jungle?

 

Basically, they removed an item that facilitated the jungle early game ( Iron Talon if i'm not wrong. ), increased the time for the jungle creeps to be born and changed the jungle easy/medium/hard camps.

 

I mean, we have orb of zamos, we shouldnt have this early game jungle. Playing with a jungle in ur team is a huge disadvantage.

You can go 2-1-2 and roam, w/e u want, but picking a hero to start at jungle in lvl 1 and being there till 10~15~20~40 min? That's not playing hon.

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On 5/15/2020 at 12:37 PM, no_puedo_mas said:

I'm not talking about good or bad players, i'm talking about the afk ones wich pick a jungler and NEVER participate.

Doesn't matter if he's good or bad, this game is not suposed to be played against creeps, this is a MOBA. We all know what should be done in a moba, being afk for 15~20~25 or 42 minutes, as they just did in my game is not the purpose of this game. It is not the purpose of any MOBA.

 

This has been a problem since the early days of the game, other MOBA as i already mentioned did a good work and took the jungle out of early game.

I'm just asking anyone who is interested in making hon better to do the same here.

 

The chance is remote, I know, but it never hurts to come to the forum and make a suggestion to make the game better.

Totally against this on multiple levels.

So you hate people who pick junglers and AFK farm without participating. I also:

- Hate people who pick mid, feed, and AFK.
- Hate people who pick support, never buy wards, and never go to teamfights. (I recently had someone do this after saying he will support during pick phase, too. If he had wanted to play something else I would've picked the support.)
- Hate people who pick carry, miss every last hit, get 250 gpm, and complain about their team.

Shall we remove them all?

If you're saying "this game is not suposed to be played against creeps" with a straight face: go play Mid Wars.

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8 hours ago, Sorais said:

Totally against this on multiple levels.

So you hate people who pick junglers and AFK farm without participating. I also:

- Hate people who pick mid, feed, and AFK.
- Hate people who pick support, never buy wards, and never go to teamfights. (I recently had someone do this after saying he will support during pick phase, too. If he had wanted to play something else I would've picked the support.)
- Hate people who pick carry, miss every last hit, get 250 gpm, and complain about their team.

Shall we remove them all?

If you're saying "this game is not suposed to be played against creeps" with a straight face: go play Mid Wars.

No one has ever talked about hating people in this thread, except you..

I came on the forum to give a suggestion for improving the game. The idea is not to remove jungle entirely, it wouldn't make any sense. The idea is to make it impossible for people to do the jungle early game, forcing the team to play 4v5 for 10 ~ 15 minutes, at least.

As I said, another game in the same segment did just that. The result was great. The example is there, the result is there, everyone can see. Except those who don't want to see it, of course.

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1 hour ago, no_puedo_mas said:

No one has ever talked about hating people in this thread, except you..

I love when that happens! 😂 Thanks for paying attention. 🙂

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2 hours ago, no_puedo_mas said:

No one has ever talked about hating people in this thread, except you..

I came on the forum to give a suggestion for improving the game. The idea is not to remove jungle entirely, it wouldn't make any sense. The idea is to make it impossible for people to do the jungle early game, forcing the team to play 4v5 for 10 ~ 15 minutes, at least.

As I said, another game in the same segment did just that. The result was great. The example is there, the result is there, everyone can see. Except those who don't want to see it, of course.

Being pedantic now are you? If you dislike the word "hate", replace it with "dislike" and read my post again.

You are free to give suggestions for improving the game, but nobody is obliged to agree with you.

When you jungle your team doesn't play 4v5 for 10~15 minutes. Unless you're a bad player of course. But it's no different from being bad at any other role. I know some people who've complained that their mid player was terrible making them play 4v6 for the entire game. Clearly that's worse than playing 4v5 for 10~15 minutes, so we should also remove the mid lane. /sarcasm

HoN isn't DotA 2, and arguments based on "they did this, we should too" don't automatically apply. I don't follow that game and don't know what Iron Talon is, for example. Further, you already make me skeptical: many heroes right now can jungle without items except regeneration consumables. Plus, how would you know the result in DotA 2 was great? Do you have statistics?

It sounds like you want to believe it worked great, therefore you see that it worked great. You wouldn't be the first person to fall prey to confirmation bias. 

Not going to say anything more.

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Posted (edited)

Just wanted to clarify a few points regarding long-term design decisions:

 

For the first 2/3 of HoN's lifetime (shortly after the official release of the game), the meta has always been 1-1-2-jungle and it led to repetitive games. Around 2016/2017, Orb of Zamos was conceived to replace Merrick's Bounty to shift the meta to 2-1-2 (even if it was slightly ). It did work, it just took a few years for NAEU to shift their mindset & meta.

 

For long-term, we want the viability of each option to be more or less comparable in terms of tradeoffs. I can tell you that for the next patch (4.8.4), there will be small nerfs to Orb of Zamos & Grave Locket so that jungling/suicide lanes become more viable options. In 2 patches from now (hopefully - no promises), we will have a small map update that favour jungle & suicide lanes even more slightly, to the point where the power discrepancy between the different laning setups is lessened (but still has unique tradeoffs).

 

We understand the possible points of frustrations for playing on a team with a jungler & a suicide lane, but forcing the removal of early jungling's viability would ruin a big part of HoN's identity. HoN is a team game & it's up to the team to organize themselves properly before the game starts. Even if jungling was removed early on, imagine starting jungling at 3 or 5 - you're gimping your lane partner if they're going up 1v2 against heroes of the same level later on. In a way, doing this would make the situation even worse.

Edited by ElementUser
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