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Patch 4.10.0 - Patch Discussion


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All those statements are saying is that it's unfun going up against things you don't like because the heroes are good at what they do & you don't like it. Like......oh no, a hero (or even, a skill) did something they're supposed to & it's unfun?

 

Nitro does have a practical counter.........stun her. Disarm her, get away from her, etc.

 

I'm not going to address every single one........I don't even know any perfect heroes by your definition though.

 

Can I say Glacius is "unfun to play against" and "promotes unhealthy gameplay" because he's been 54-55% win rate consistently and has a broken early game? Sure. But you know that's not true because there is reasonable counterplay after time advances a bit and heroes gain levels. It's the same thing here - I can claim any hero is broken, unfun and promotes unhealthy gameplay, the same way you can.

 

The difference is drawing that line - you're way too biased in what you don't like.

Edited by ElementUser
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It will receive patches deemed on a necessity basis.  I will say it is very likely 1 more patch will occur because we need to revert the Christmas map and UI back to how it was before. 

Great patch, like all the changes. 

Halberd cant have a mini stun. Cause some high attack speed early like MoA and Nitro will be too strong and wont let enemy have a chance to attack them. Normal Heroes doesn't have much Attack speed in

Your right, its not fun to play against them. Not that they're too strong other then

Sapphire, Puppetmaster, Deadlift.

The kits them selves are unhealthy for the game. It is the same thing with the old Adren (although the old adren is was more balanced then this new one but still unhealthy)

Its my personal opinion that heroes that are unfun to play against be changed or even out right removed. As that would be more positive then caring if a glacius is nerfed because he has a higher winrate.

Lets be HoNest here, HoN will never be competitive again. So lets stop pretending that those stats matter and lets do something about the un healthy heroes that currently exist. Such as in your case; magebane which i do not disagree hes just much lower on my own list.

Edited by jabawoogie
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Sapphire is the ABSOLUTE most busted hero in HoN right now. I really don't understand how you do not see this as in every game that the character is picked by someone with a minor amount of knowledge, the game is ran by said person. She does an insane amount of AoE damage and has a long lasting stun that has easy setup. She is countered hard countered by shruken but alot of the times that unreliable as she goes to get a stun off on you first. Saphhire can also disable everyone with out shruken nearly instantly giving the team to set up position or run away from a lost fight. She not only deals insane damage, but she also has insane escape. This is with out even mentioning the shield, which is basically a better version of gunblade shield.

Puppetmaster the ranged carry that can one shot anyone below 2k hp with just a shroud and decent positioning not to mention he can disable or restrain targets for a considerable amount of time. Couple it with a quick shroud or mask of madness (you don't even really need a shroud) you just become unstoppable. Between the whiplash extra damage and ulti one shot tactic. All of his core items are relatively cost effective Hell Flower, Harkons, Mask of Madness, Shroud, Pkey, Shruken Not a single one costs more then 5k gold. If you don't consider genjuro.

Deadlift the man who can bring his entire team back to life. That by itself is just ridiculous i've won and lost against deadlift from massive leads by using this ability. Couple that with a staff, you essentially never die and steal tons of hp from everyone fighting you. He is countered by nullfire, but not many heroes can realistically build one. He is also countered by sand scepter again thats a unrealistic item. I havent even mentioned the power of just pushing onslaught on towers and thats all you do. You can base people in 10 minutes by just using onslaught and building tanky. With no other push heroes involved.

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It's not fun to see Deadlift revive his 4 teamates.

It's not fun to see Monarch remove your stun when you play valkyrie, Cthuluphant

It's not fun to see Enemy heroes can not die under Marty's wing

It's not fun to see Arachna destroy your carry while untouched.

It's not fun to see your full 6th slot items Ravenor can not fight against permanent bash Chronos

It's not fun to see Riptide dominating your mid lane while you sitting at your safe lane and watching your teamates farm all days.

I guess HoN is balanced

Edited by w3_StarBoy
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HoN SEA Player

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Does "Mana spent on this ability no longer triggers effects that occur when mana is spent (e.g., Nome's Wisdom)" means that Master of the Mantra won't be triggered on them anymore? Sounds like a nerf to Magebane, making him less of a counter to those heroes (Parallax, Electrician, etc.)

What about Oogie's Conflagrate interaction with its ultimate? The ultimate won't heal from that ability anymore? Sounds like a conflict of what Oogie is designed to be.

Edited by acrophos
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What an irony that you mentioned all those heroes that are fine, but don't mention Oogie. The hero that's probably more problematic than all of those above mentioned, combined... having almost unlimited sustain, can farm super fast with no farming items, can turn the fight around very fast and use 20 spells in a teamfight, picked or first-banned in almost every tourney game, but sure, let's not mention the hero because it's a part of your name and I'd assume it's your most played.

@jabawoogie

Edited by DividedBy3
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5 hours ago, acrophos said:

Does "Mana spent on this ability no longer triggers effects that occur when mana is spent (e.g., Nome's Wisdom)" means that Master of the Mantra won't be triggered on them anymore? Sounds like a nerf to Magebane, making him less of a counter to those heroes (Parallax, Electrician, etc.)

What about Oogie's Conflagrate interaction with its ultimate? The ultimate won't heal from that ability anymore? Sounds like a conflict of what Oogie is designed to be.

Magebane E only triggers on ability cast.  Same with Oogie R (and some of it is manually scripted, since unfortunately you can't detect what source is doing the mana consumption on manually triggered mana consumption calls). 

 

Manually triggered mana consumption (like when we need to delay mana consumption for some reason, or to do custom % mana consumption for ability costs) is different than regular mana consumption on ability cast. Everything will still work the same, with the exception that Magebane E won't trigger on the initial cast of Oogie W and Blacksmith SotM-R. 

 

I wouldn't worry about the wording too much, as those changes are very niche changes. Everything works the way it should in the end, as intended. Thank you for bringing up your concern. 

Edited by ElementUser
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Why nerfing dawnbringer again, it is the most expensive item already and it's was a perfetc item. At least change the value to 6000g or smh, this way the item would still be viable while not that op. You are even nerfing the movement speed bonus come on. 

Buff Valk too, add 2 charges for the E with staff adding to pre-existing. Or increase Javelin speed. I'm biased about Valk tho, maybe do it as a xmas gift? 

 

For someone up there crying about Sap op... you can counter the hero with 2 barbed, ez counter. 

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42 minutes ago, w3_StarBoy said:

Who come up with the ideal that Golden Apple give 1 damage on 1 charge and 3 damage on 2 charge. Do you try to tell us buy 2 Golden Apple early for bonus 1 damage??? 🙂

Attack Damage (and Damage in general) has always been a float number (i.e., numbers with decimals). It just appears as a whole number in the UI. Even every single attack you do is somewhere within the attack damage range of your hero, e.g. if it's 44-50, it could be 44.0, 44.1, 44.2, 44.34333, 44.3322, 46.5, 46, 45, 49.999, and so forth.

How else would heals and damage over time work if it wasn't the case?

In any case, 1.5 Attack Damage is actually 1.5 Attack Damage. It's not "sometimes 1" or "sometimes 2".

Edited by ElementUser
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I think the nerf to nome's wisdom on some heroes is too strong, being a core item for some. Maybe instead of not applying the effect, apply a 30% or a lower value but do not remove it's effect completely imo

halberd seems a bit too strong... 60 physical damage for 1000 gold is a lot.. and it's a 30% chance too.. I think halberd should be more expensive and lower damage, like 1200 gold for 50 damage with a 25% chance sounds more reasonable specially for heroes like MOA, nitro, scout. And IDK if it stacks with itself but it should not. And savege mace should apply something like 75% true strike only. The remaining 25% of the non true strike hits still has 65%-85% chance of hitting, therefore savege mace would be a great counter for wingbow but would not render it useless 🙂

I think the change to grave locket is not that meaningful. I would suggest it being an orb of zamos + amulet of exile/soulscream ring/fortified bracer + 75 gold recipe...so that it encourages non dedicated support heroes to plan building it as early item when they are laning with  a carry and also having more options to do something with bracer/ring.

 

Please bring the old sand wraith back ❤️
 

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Thank you for reworking MageBane. So many years of people picking this hero and trolling games will be gone now (I hope so). Telling people that this hero was flawed and had no real place in the game was becoming tedious. Now we can see some good ideas put into him and an actual role he can fit it. When I was thinking about hero concepts, I sketched some similar ideas for an anti-magic hero like active on the mantra. 

First time I am thrilled to see mb being played in my game 😉

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At least we get new Magebane from this patch than none.

I still hope EU considers my dream patch note on item changes, especially on chance-based modifier section.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

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10 minutes ago, Acnowlogia said:

My insights:

Blacksmith: The only reason to buy SOTM on BS was to trigger the multicast aspect of his spells. Removing this option completely is a major nerf to the hero as SOTM will not be cost-effective to get anymore. Imo a less punishing change should be implemented. Remove multicast from Frenzy while leaving a nerfed version of Fireball (e.g. proc rate, multiplication or accumulative damage)

Lodestone: Lodestone is overall a stronger than average hero in high bracket. Without any balancing mechanism, the changes are seen as a buff in this bracket, despite being justified in low-middle bracket.

Ophelia: She is a hero that fits perfectly into snowballing meta. A hero that is very strong early-mid game and fall down later. The changes you made are seen as an even stronger buff to the already tedious opponent to deal with early game. I suggest a mana rescale instead of a buff.

Magebane: I honestly couldn't understand why you have to rework a perfectly balanced hero. Many of your claims aren't correct at all.

Magebane is indeed a flash farmer and a strong late game carry. Many other heroes are like that including TDL, Tarot, Bushwack or even Oogie. Thus, balancing a hero for this very reason is not justified, else you would have to rework all the heroes I just mentioned as well for consistency. 

Magebane is not an useless hero early-mid game. In high tier bracket, Magebane often focuses on farming until he gets runed axe and firebrand, which is before min 20. So by mid-game he is already strong enough to participate in ganking and combat. This is true for most middle-high tier players. As for me, I found that Magebane do super well as a suicide laner and less well but still a strong niche middle laner. And the very reason to explain is, in contrast to your claims, because of his high mobility, damage, and relative tankiness (given the right starting items).

He used to be an assassination-type hero that requires good maneuver/timing and was really fun to play and prideful to succeed. How annoying Magebane can be is entirely scaled by the talent of the player, not due to other game mechanics (like Znooki's 600 gpm Draconis at level 5, for instance, which obviously doesn't require much talent from stacking creeps). But now, you made it into a brute type of hero, just like how you destroyed the once very well-designed and elegant Chipper. How very disappointing!

I have stopped playing Chipper since the date it was changed (around 2016?), before that he was one of my top 5 most favourite. Now Magebane will end up in the same forgotten corner. Hats off and a moment of silence for the two heroes of Newerth!

The moral of the story is: If you are trying to make every hero easy-to-play, the majority of us wouldn't have been playing this game since the very first days, we would've all played LoL instead.

My claims on Magebane make sense - I suggest you reread them. I don't see you refuting them specifically, and until you do, the onus is on you to see if you can try to prove them wrong. 

 

If you need to farm so much early to mid game and don't contribute much to ganks even if they come to you, it does mean you're useless early to mid game. That's what Magebane did - he has no cc and the only thing he could offer was his ult. 

 

I don't mind if you disagree as you have your opinions - but Magebane does not "assassinate" anyone until 40 minutes into the game. 

 

I also have no idea what you're talking about regarding Chipper. He has not had significant changes as far as I know, and all his skills still remain roughly the same as upon his release. 

Edited by ElementUser
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21 minutes ago, Acnowlogia said:

For some reason I can't download the replay of this TMM Match #162638581

I would like to prove to you just how wrong it is to assume that "Magebane does not "assassinate" anyone until 40 minutes into the game".

You don't have to believe my words, but try to browse through high bracket replays. Facts can't be wrong.

If needed be, I can always provide match IDs of me playing Magebane mid or suicide. It's a bit extreme to see a Magebane being useful since the beginning of the game, but it could be viewed as an extreme counter to your biased claim.

First off (lol):

 

wBt00l4.png

 

Second, good for you: your opponents didn't have enough nukes early game to face-melt you. If they had a support like Glacius instead of Vindicator, and a better carry in lane that can actually contribute, you'd be toast.

I'm glad you played Magebane the way you did in this game, because that is how he's supposed to played back in the WC3 DotA days. Unfortunately, most players don't play Magebane like you, and to be quite fair, Magebane doesn't have any mitigation tools to encourage him to play this way.

This is exactly what the rework aims to do, and exactly the way I want players to play Magebane. So I still don't see where the problem is - you had a decent game, but your opponents' picks were optimal to handle a suicide Magebane & so they got punished (granted, you weren't doing so hot either after they killed you at around levels 3-4).

Edited by ElementUser
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24 minutes ago, Acnowlogia said:

On Chipper: His rockets were enlarged, damage mechanic changed (+ ministun reduced?!) leading to his playstyle shifted. He was considered similar to Bombardier (wtf?!?!?!?!?!) so the change removed him effectively from the role of a middle laner. Imagine the once-strongest nuker ganker forced to become an overpowered secondary support, what would Xibbe have felt. On a personal level, I don't like the big rocket size as it removes the trickshot potential (e.g. shooting through moving creep wave or heroes to aim for a specific target). For ease-to-play, you may as well think about making Valkyrie's arrow, Devourer and Gauntlet's hooks twice as big.

Okay. But his concept overall is still the exact same as on release. So I still fail to see why you think Chipper was changed significantly (on a conceptual level) - these are a matter of numbers & not so much concept or identity of the hero.

Also, for the record: I was not the one who made these changes. Just an FYI.

Edited by ElementUser
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I believe those rocket changes made were from wza/SomaZ. I'm glad Chipper found a use for a secondary support though - I'm sure the hero still plays well mid, it's just not optimal these days (which HoN players are well-known for in terms of min-maxing) - Chipper turned into one after his rockets were made to work on neutrals again (which I did do). I don't see that specific part as a bad thing though, because Chipper has a role well-suited for him now.

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