Jump to content

Rework/buff some heroes so that they can optionally jungle


Recommended Posts

There are about 16 heroes that can realistically jungle and 6 of them are heavily micro reliant, which is for many (if not most) players a no go. Some of the remaining ones are frequently banned and some are better played in other positions. For every other role there's almost half of the hero pool of valid choices. It would be good if junglers had more options to express themselves and not get bored to death playing the same heroes over and over again.

I have a lot of ideas for small changes that don't require much work and allow some heroes to jungle without making them imbalanced, if you want to hear.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, feel free to share your idea on this thread. Let me know what you have in thought.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Slightly buff heroes who are almost able to jungle or could barely jungle in the past - because they are almost eligible for it it wouldn't require a big buff to make them legit, so it wouldn't break balance
2. Buff abillities explicitly for jungling, particularly increasing sustainability in the jungle would be great - that would make it possible to jungle with the heroes, it will be clearly highlighted that they can jungle, so people wouldn't oppose if they saw that pick and of course it wouldn't affect those heroes' performance in lanes at all, so balance isn't threatened
3. Jungle items! Something fun to work around, bringing freshness to the game and giving chances for different heroes to jungle. Big issues: hard to implement, would probably buff the junglers who are already strong beyond OPness - feel free to nerf them at the same time so that they know their place

I have lots of examples in my mind for each of the above cathegories, if you are interested further!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Go on, I want to see some technical idea of yours so I can give some opinions from them.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a reason why jungle was made unviable for borderline jungle-capable heroes in the first place: it's to maintain the delicate balance of a team choosing whether or not they should jungle, and weighing the pros & cons of doing so vs. a 2-1-2 laning setup.

The meta for the first 70% or so of HoN's lifetime was 2-1-1-jungle.

We will likely not sway this delicate balance to favour jungling, as we wish to maintain laning setup diversity.

Edited by ElementUser
Link to post
Share on other sites

The classic situation:
xxx: I'm mid
kkk: No me!
xxx: Dude I said first and I have better MMR
kkk: Oh, you bastard, then I'm a forest!
yyy: Boy, I can't play offlane solo, please let's go stand together! I'll be a support!
kkk: Shut your mouth, you're all in ignore

After that, the person simply takes the forester and you will never see him again.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1.
Blood hunter
Greatly reduce W's cooldown, but penalise gold gained from creeps killed with it's active. Increase heal from active, make it possible to eat a large creep from level 1.
Let E increase autoattack damage dealt to creeps below given hp %, just like to heroes.

Dampeer
Increase Dampeer's lifesteal for self while decreasing it's aura's potency, evening the difference out on higher skill levels. Let the aura also increase attack speed without essences. Debuff some burst damage to keep him balanced.

Forsaken Archer
Buff E significantly, delay it's cooldown triggering by a short time so that skeletons can spawn on every unit hit via W. Additionally give Q a decaying slow after restrain.

Maliken
Let E increase armor in addition to/instead of magic armor for % missing hp.
If Sword Throw doesn't hit a hero AND Maliken doesn't teleport to it, refund a large portion of it's cooldown and mana cost.

Predator
Make it possible to pick (a much weaker version of) R from level 1. Obviously remove the level 3 requirement for E to work on neutrals.

Doctor Repulsor
Reduce Q's mana cost on lower levels, make W additionally slow down units around the pulled target.

Amun-Ra
Let W refund a portion of it's health cost if it doesn't hit an enemy hero. Increase Q's damage for every tree destroyed on it's path slightly, up to a maximum. Make E stacks increase Ra's attack speed like in the old times.

2.
Cthuluphant
Let E deal additional, flat damage to neutral units hitting him frontally. Make W refund a portion of it's mana cost if every wave hits a target.

Slither
Make Toxin Wards not block neutral camps from respawning and if it's possible make neutrals attacked by wards aggro to slither (if he's close) instead of the wards. Let wards apply current level of Toxicity to neutrals they hit, stacking it up to 3 times (only on neutrals).

Oogie
Decrease E's cooldown by 1 second with every autoattack against a neutral creep. Let Q deal bonus damage to neutrals if there are no stacks on it.

Accursed
Let W deal damage equal to pre mitigation damage taken exceeding the shield's durability, up to a maximum. Let Sear passively apply DoT to neutrals.

Flux
Let E increase skill damage to neutrals in push polarity and give it magic lifesteal instead in pull polarity. Their values would increase with this skill's level. If a neutral creep is pushed or pulled into an obstacle (including heroes) it receives additional damage and a stun.

Deadwood
Increase W's bonus damage to neutrals. Make E heal with every tree stepped over, decreasing it's potency down to 0 in a single cast.

Riftwalker
Let E pull neutrals with every pulse.

Apex
Make E apply the DoT to neutrals attacking Apex while he's channeling it.


Deadlift
Greatly increase E's hp recovery for neutrals' deaths and make them come back as undead unter Deadlift's control but they disappear when Deadlift attempts to damage or takes damage from enemy hero.

3.
Peasant's Fork 275g - a stronger version of Logger's Hatchet working only on neutrals, but still upgradable to Runed Cleaver
Scholar's Robe 250g - works like a weaker buckler, active provides a weak mana shield that only works on neutrals' attacks.
Scholar's Wand 150g - increases magic damage dealt to neutrals by a % value, 50% effectiveness for AoE spells.
Scholar's Scroll 100g - heals 100 + 10% of hp missing (when it's being used) and 50 + 15% of missing mana over it's duration, blocks 200 damage, lasts 10 seconds. Effect is lost if you leave jungle/river areas. Resonates with Orb of Zamos making it impossible to use if you hold one, but increases it's potency by 25% if you're synchronised with someone.
Bounty list 100g(?) - increases neutral creep's bounty by 20% if you haven't killed a creep of that type yet, reduces lane creep bounty by 50%. Starts with 0 sell value, increasing by 5 per type of creep you've killed. Can only have one at a time. Maybe rebuying it could reset the bounties?

Although some of them are wild, these are just loose ideas; nothing specific, nothing strict.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sustaining against neutrals is not enough to make heroes as viable forester, quickly clearing neutrals is - by using area damage or multiple unit at disposal. So, heroes such as Predator, Blood Hunter, and Maliken are out of option to be a forester early on.

I wanted to give statement that abilities or items shouldn't revolve around neutrals but I saw War Beast's and Wildsoul's pet have bonus damage against them. So, I have no right against items and abilities with benefit against neutral.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree quickly clearing is the most important factor, but many of those heroes would be able to do that if it wasn't for the refilling needs that slow them down greatly (because they have to keep refilling bottle, going back to base and such), and sustain is important to stay relatively safe and able to gank. Increasing clear speed could spawn imbalancedly fast farmers, that's why i decided to focus on sustain.

Maliken was actually able to jungle very well in the past (level 6 below 5:00 without spending much on consumables, not bad for a carry imo), but got nerfed and has too much trouble on lower levels, particularly sustaining himself on low hp.

Blood Hunter comes pretty close to decency already, that's why i think a little cooldown reduce on W and allowing him to eat big creeps from lvl 1 would already be good enough, but just to make sure, an extra dmg buff from E working on neutrals would also help.

Predator's R is pretty powerful, even if it's weakened, and combined with E on level 2 could maybe give him enough clear speed.

I also dislike items/abillities having special effects specifically on neutrals - it's a boring, non creative way to cover a potential jungler's weaknesses, but I think it can be justified by extreme jungler heroes shortage and it's much abused in LoL (which has plenty of junglers, partly thanks to explicit jungle effects on their skills and items).

I've tried to keep my hero change suggestions self-sufficient but also relevant if applied together with implementing the jungle items, but I think I've leaned more towards the former.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Draconis, Legionnaire, and Solstice are popular forester because they are included into your criteria as imbalanced fast farmer.

On second thought, I think your idea about Maliken's Sword Throw can work better than your Dampeer's idea. Also, I think you missed Magmus and Soul Reaper as viable forester because of their area damage.

Seeing you proposed your version of change gave me urge to also suggest one.

Spoiler

Blood Hunter:

  • Feast active changed from single target to transmute a creep to a self buff for 8 seconds, increasing Base Damage by 15/30/30/45% and increasing heal from non-hero unit kill by 15/15/25/25%.
  • Cooldown of Feast active is reduced from 60/50/40/30 seconds to 16/14/12/10 seconds. 
  • Feast passive for healing upon killing non-hero unit reduced from 10/15/20/25% unit's max health to 10% at all levels.
  • Blood Sense passive upon hitting low-health enemy hero changed from bonus base damage by 10/20/30/40% to a lifesteal by 15/25/35/45%.

Thought Process:

  • Current Feast active feels less rewarding for opponent at putting pressure on Blood Hunter compared to most heroes.
  • Bonus base damage is unreliable put on Blood Sense because of its limited benefit.
  • This change makes Blood Hunter good at last-hitting while rewards opponent upon putting pressure on him.
  • This change obviously intends to make him viable forester.

Predator:

  • Swap Terror and Carnivorous ability as basic ability and ultimate ability respectively.
  • Terror applies a stacking buff to Predator for 4.5 seconds and up to 3 stacks, granting bonus 10/10/15/15 Attack Speed to himself and reducing 10/15/15/20% Base Damage of enemy units in 350 radius to him per stack. 1.5x Base Damage reduction percentage to non-heroes (15/22.5/22.5/30%).
  • Carnivorous grants Predator bonus Physical damage by 8% of target's current health and applies a individually stacking debuff to target for 4.5 seconds, increasing Carnivorous damage and heal by 15/30/45% per stack.
  • Carnivorous doesn't grant illusions a debuff effect on their attacks.
  • Staff of Master change [removing existing one]: Carnivorous' heal on Predator also heals ally heroes in 650 radius to him.  
  • Venomous Leap passively grants 6/8/10/12% bonus movement speed for 4.5 seconds on attack.

Thought Process:

  • Current Terror has thin-line distinction to Accursed Sear but generally Accursed Sear is better in term of quick use.
  • Terror is placed as basic ability with adjustment in order to make Predator a viable forester by giving him bonus attack speed to quickly clear neutrals and damage reduction to mitigate damage taken.
  • Carnivorous is placed as ultimate ability with adjustment in order to make Predator sticking on countering high health heroes than armor reduction effect he currently has because intelligence heroes tend to also have low armor.
  • This change at least encourages Predator to stick at hitting same target without making him too good as current Carnivorous tends to decline in effect when the target reaches low health.

Forsaken Archer:

  • Call of the Damned's skeleton archer damage is changed from 20/30/40/50% Forsaken Archer's damage to a static 30/40/50/60 Magic Damage. Deals 1.5x damage against non-hero unit.
  • Call of the Damned's skeleton archer also shoots 1/1/1/2 projectile(s) on nearest visible enemy unit in 700 radius around it, prioritizing enemy hero.
  • Call of the Damned has 0.5 second toggle cooldown to switch spawned skeleton archer unable to shoot projectile on other enemy units.
  • Crippling Volley applies additional 0.75 second Immobilize effect on non-hero enemy units.

Thought Process:

  • Current Call of the Damned is a fancy version of critical strike.
  • This change helps Forsaken Archer's to wipe out neutrals slightly early on.

 

 

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

Link to post
Share on other sites

I like them, but I would also love to see the skeletons work on multiple targets hit with a single autoattack
for example it could be like that: when you damage a unit when Call of the Damned is not on cooldown you get a 1 second buff which causes skeletons to spawn on damage dealt by you (except for the skeletons). That would make great synergy with Forsaken Archer's AoE kit

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't want to see any of the mentioned heroes in jungle to be honest. I'd much rather see current junglers being viable on lane.

Tempest and Ophelia are already decent if played as supports. Their harass and deny potential is really good. Imho underrated as supports. 

Legio is not really viable on lane, neither is parasite but I'd love to see them in lane more often. While legio is rather easy to adjust, not sure what to do about para.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...