Community Dream Patch - Brainstorming thread

[Netzpatron 16]

Revive the amazing game modes HoN has in the stash !!
(namely Blitz Mode, Rift Wars, Devo Wars etc. )

At the moment all the modes are only available through public games so barely any1 plays them.

They need a comeback to MM to make more people play it.

 

The main issue is the Q time as people are taken away from FoC and MW by implementing these modes to MM.
Here are 3 options on how to bring the modes back although only number 1. would fix the Q time issue sustainably.


1. I have made a long post as an idea how to fix the Q time issue some time ago, but EU said it is impossible "due to how HoN loads maps currently".

Anyway, as it would be my dream patch I will repeat it in hopes it could become possible somehow.
 

Instead of choosing a map and then game mode, each player should be able to UNTICK alle the modes he does NOT want to play. For example: Player A wants to play MW All pick, or Grimms Crossing 5v5 Blitz mode, he then UNTICKS MW Balanced Random, MW Single Draft, Grimm's Crossing 3v3, Rift Wars, Devo Wars and so on...

Player A still has the most popular modes ticked on resulting in a moderate Q time of 2 minutes. Really good!

Player B however, he only wants to play Devo Wars and nothing else. He Unticks MW All pick, Grimms Crossing 5v5 Blitz mode, MW Balanced Random, MW Single Draft, Grimm's Crossing 3v3, Rift Wars and so on...

Player B has a Q time of aprox 15-20 minutes. This is very long as he chose only one mode which is not a popular one. Player B is aware of that and he still prefers waiting alt-tabbed in a Q and being able to play his lovely game mode afterwards instead of waiting in a Hosted game server where no1 joins.

Player C however is ok to play all game modes. He doesn't untick anything at all. He will most likely have a Q time of 30 sec.

 

If it only takes resources I would please FB to open a donation option to make this happen.

Me and hopefully many other who love the game modes variety of HoN would donate a huge some for realizing this.

 

2. If it is really not possible to load modes instead of maps, just add Grimm's Crossing to MM with the Blitz mode and Rift wars option as they are the most popular ones.

 

3. Weekly or even more frequent map rotation like in the past.

 

 

Oh I even forgot CTF and soccer in the suggestion no.1 .  How damn I miss these game modes. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Netzpatron

[Stahlzeit 13]

On 11/19/2021 at 2:01 PM, Netzpatron said:

Revive the amazing game modes HoN has in the stash !!
(namely Blitz Mode, Rift Wars, Devo Wars etc. )

At the moment all the modes are only available through public games so barely any1 plays them.

They need a comeback to MM to make more people play it.

 

The main issue is the Q time as people are taken away from FoC and MW by implementing these modes to MM.
Here are 3 options on how to bring the modes back although only number 1. would fix the Q time issue sustainably.


1. I have made a long post as an idea how to fix the Q time issue some time ago, but EU said it is impossible "due to how HoN loads maps currently".

Anyway, as it would be my dream patch I will repeat it in hopes it could become possible somehow.
 

Instead of choosing a map and then game mode, each player should be able to UNTICK alle the modes he does NOT want to play. For example: Player A wants to play MW All pick, or Grimms Crossing 5v5 Blitz mode, he then UNTICKS MW Balanced Random, MW Single Draft, Grimm's Crossing 3v3, Rift Wars, Devo Wars and so on...

Player A still has the most popular modes ticked on resulting in a moderate Q time of 2 minutes. Really good!

Player B however, he only wants to play Devo Wars and nothing else. He Unticks MW All pick, Grimms Crossing 5v5 Blitz mode, MW Balanced Random, MW Single Draft, Grimm's Crossing 3v3, Rift Wars and so on...

Player B has a Q time of aprox 15-20 minutes. This is very long as he chose only one mode which is not a popular one. Player B is aware of that and he still prefers waiting alt-tabbed in a Q and being able to play his lovely game mode afterwards instead of waiting in a Hosted game server where no1 joins.

Player C however is ok to play all game modes. He doesn't untick anything at all. He will most likely have a Q time of 30 sec.

 

If it only takes resources I would please FB to open a donation option to make this happen.

Me and hopefully many other who love the game modes variety of HoN would donate a huge some for realizing this.

 

2. If it is really not possible to load modes instead of maps, just add Grimm's Crossing to MM with the Blitz mode and Rift wars option as they are the most popular ones.

 

3. Weekly or even more frequent map rotation like in the past.

 

 

Oh I even forgot CTF and soccer in the suggestion no.1 .  How damn I miss these game modes. 

 

How to handle queue times on so many game modes?? easy! Guild Wars for example has automatic rotating events for it. 

Give us 4x or 5x silver rewards at certain times. Queue times for the modes with bonus will decrease this way.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Stahlzeit

[ZLOfm 2]

Attention! This post is not intended to offend, humiliate, punish someone, promote dangerous or immoral ideas, gain any privileges or take them away from someone.
 I also ask you to take into account that all the text was passed through Google Translate (If some things related to grammatical errors make you laugh, please do not blame it on me)
It will be a long message that will be filled with criticism, emotions, feelings of resentment and humiliation, pain and suffering. However, this is not a “I want to speak out” message. This happened because all the things that matter in my life cause me certain emotions. Please consider this simply as turns of speech. I also ask you to note that I will not give links to the threads of this forum, every user who has been sitting here for a while already has an idea of what this is about.
I have only one goal - only to improve the game and enjoy this game.

I have been playing this game for a long time, it means a lot to me. In addition to HoN, I played Dota 1, Dota 2, LoL. I came to Hon long before Dota 2 came out and Hon, first of all, attracted me with its incredible dynamics, which is still missing in Dota 2. I used to play every day after work, but for a year now I can't even imagine how I can play more.
I noticed this tendency, it is confirmed by many of my friends in the game, as well as casual players. Players play either for an interesting gameplay, or "just for the sake of victories and ratings." In this case, most often, they start playing "just for the sake of victories and rating", when they stop playing for the sake of gameplay. Hence it is not a choice but a consequence of the first type of decline. It would be foolish to deny that there are perfectionists or simply rating lovers, but nevertheless, remember yourself - you would never chase ratings in a game that you do not like.
General decline in balance. I talk a lot about this and this is the main reason why everything is so bad with us right now. Fortunately for all of us, this is a temporary phenomenon and together we are quite capable of influencing this in order to make HoN a good game, reviving interest in it. We are not going to touch technical patches, bug fixes and design changes right now.
As many probably know, before the developers had some kind of "far-reaching plan according to which you can make a dream game" which they desperately followed, each time correcting something in the process (the balance of the patches is generally a pretty stupid event). It was mostly about heroes and looked pretty shabby. At the moment, as I understand it, only ElementUser is left and only 1 person is not able to fix this whole game, especially if at the same time it is played by the method "while it works, this is good." I may have had complaints against a specific person, but realizing all the responsibility of one person, it becomes scary and I just want to say “thank you”. Thank you ElementUser for not leaving us.

But at this point, I'll start talking about the real issues of game balance.
To begin with, it is worth starting to understand that the HoN game is far from original and is currently focused only on players who are used to it. This gave rise to a policy of stagnation and attempts to maintain some kind of gloomy balance, bypassing all stressful situations where the game changes for all 180°.

 

I will subdivide heroes into 3 types, gradations in originality, and these terms will often be used in the text:
Dota Port or Classic - the heroes are the very first, all taken from Dota, a little less than completely. Examples: Swiftblade, Andromeda, NH, MB, etc.
Halfport - heroes, partially taking abilities, traits and designs from DotA. Examples: Blood Hunter, Rampage, Vindicator, Arachna, Predator, Hellbringer, Fayde, Aluna, Riptide, KOTF
Original - heroes existing only in HoN.
Let's talk more specifically:
I consider classic heroes to be the main reason for the decline of this game. Just look at the frequency of changes in Dota-Port of heroes and at the phenomenon that I call "imbalance for good", where no conditional Original has a new ability feature in one patch, and disappears in the next. At the moment, the ladder has fallen into a trap of balance, where it makes no sense to play something without the participation of these heroes. This was the case during the days of slavery, where African countries selling slaves fell into an economic trap, where it makes no sense to build or extract something if the most valuable resource is running. A similar situation with these heroes. Players simply have no alternatives, these heroes are like gags or just restrictions for all of us at the same time. Unfortunately, it happened. The question follows - why, in general, change these heroes that have already become familiar and familiar to many? I'll try to answer:
1. Increase of interest in the game due to the original heroes, as well as transferring the classic heroes to the original or semi-port. An example would be Hellbringer, who, being a classic hero, moved to the category of Half-Port and thus became one of the most interesting and unique heroes. Imagine a situation where your favorite hero radically changes the gameplay, it's like buying a smartphone instead of a push-button phone. Is it interesting? Sure, but everything takes time.

2. Shifting the attention of this problem area, which constantly arises when a person from DotA comes to Hon. The first thing such a person does is compare. Do I need to say that your friend with whom you would like to play, simply says “this is just a bad old version of Dota” and you never go to HoN again because there are alternatives?

3. Counter-pick. I think everyone agrees that having a counter pick for every hero is a must. I'm talking about situations, meta shifting, where some conventional hero will gain insane popularity and win rate, but in order not to play god and not make a nerf, you need to have a counter pick. Thus, players will be able to independently shift the zones of comfortable play.

4. Transition to the new. Think, because each of us present here probably has thoughts that the game lacks some kind of hero, but making a new hero, coming up with lore is not always a good idea. But here we can easily take a conditional WS and turn it into a completely new and interesting hero. Sometimes you don't even need anything new - you already have a skill and you just need to greatly improve it so that it becomes completely different.

Spoiler

Have you ever played chess?
One of the most boring and overrated games ever. Try 1 figure to change the balance and you will catch a shitstorm. “If it works, then you don’t need to touch it” - a rule that is often followed out of stupidity. You should always strive for something new. You will never get better playing the same game for 20 years in a row. For some reason, there is a similar tendency in hon - for any proposal to change the established one, it is simply always the same stupid question-plug “Why?”.
Who needs to be changed and how often?

This is how I see it:

"Formula for choosing a hero for balance"
If the hero has a 53% win rate or higher - a change is needed, a 46% win rate or lower - a change is needed.
But this is not enough, perhaps just a moment of the meta, but since we decided to radically change the old heroes, we will follow any not very pleasant scenario.
Let's say there is a 25% chance of changes before the patch, but it doesn't make sense to change it for no apparent reason.
Since the classic heroes need change the most - he gets multiplied by x2
Halfports x1 and Original are not received at all.
If the hero is among the first 25 heroes of the pick rate, he gets x2 multiplication, the first 75% x 1 and the rest do not receive at all.
Thus, a hero with about 55% win rate and entering the first 25 heroes gets x4 multiplication of the need to change. And it turns out very simply. All these statistics are summed up and it turns out that some Hag (subject to the above reasons) needs to be changed 100% in the next patch.

p.s. If the winrate and pickrate tables do not reflect reality, then this is a direct deception of the players and this whole scheme will not work simply because the statistics are unreal.

However, what happens then, you need to do each patch rework ??? Well, in general - if each hero has 2 direct and 2 more indirect counter-picks - the need for rework disappears until new data is revealed. Remember when Demented Shaman was changed? His new ultimate made him one of the most interesting heroes. And he counters well with Dispell, which practically no one else has.
 

Spoiler

The greedy Just for Lulz method:
Enter the system of paid bans for gold, pay gold and I can block up to 5 heroes at the beginning of the match. Thus, I will donate unreal money so that I never play with certain heroes. It is cheap and hardly anything needs to be changed. There are many who agree to donate.

As for the counter-pick - what are the new heroes to change just for the sake of some other player suffering? Well, in general, you can simply add additional buffs to the already prepared skills. Missing Dispell? Add it to the Apex with Sotm ultmate. A popular and strong hero has a lot of HP? Give Blitz additional damage in the form of 10-15% of the target's maximum health. Etc

But these are just words, but how can we find so many solutions.
A long time ago there was a DreamHon service, I saw it 2.5 times, but the point is that people offered ideas. Make a mini version of the forum where people could propose actions for the patch based on voting, while it is based on the above formula, and it is also important not to make several changes to one type of hero (support, carry, ganker, etc.). Type:
TrueGamer proposes balance change - Andromeda + 100 attack range
Description: in this meta, she cannot attack, she is quickly killed. Moreover, according to general statistics, even for these games (ID 5-10), the hero is really bad at attacking.
Votes: 100 + / 20 - = a total of 80 votes FOR CHANGE (Let only verified accounts get the opportunity to vote)
"Formula for choosing a hero for balance" - OK (based on the winrate and classification of the hero)

This is still the first message on this topic, later I will write a few more about the painful one.
At the end, I will add several sentences in one sentence:

•  Vitally necessary Automatic ban on MW of the three most popular heroes in this mode, in addition to bans from players.
• It is vital to give points for the ban on midvor if the player ignored the ban stage
•  Bring back the division Ranked, Unranked, Casual.
• Disable viewing player statistics at the Pick stage
•  When a player makes Immortal or Annihilation - Taunt is automatically triggered
• Forest creeps must use abilities against heroes, even if hero is 1.
• Genocide should remove the team that lost the battle -5 armor on buildings
• Every 10 minutes, lane creeps should receive a small increase in damage, not health.

Thank you very much ElementUser, I know we have a difficult relationship, but thanks for not leaving us. I understand that we are asking for changes and that, as I understand it, you are working alone. Perhaps you need to start collecting helpers to help you develop your game. Think about it, I think there will be people here who want to help. You can specially for them in-game unique skins or Taunt, I don't know. But if you really need help, they give it to the person who asks.
Zelus

Edited November 23, 2021 by ZLOfm
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[ZLOfm 2]

I understand that the developer does not have the so-called "Resources". If this is money - please tell me where you can throw the money in order to see at least some kind of reaction besides the silence that has already gotten me for many years?
 

Spoiler

If this is not money, then let them also make an appropriate message. Because it’s already annoying that if you suggest something, they write to you either “the balance is normal” or “to change something, you need money and time, and I’m 1 developer and I can’t do anything,” or in 90% of cases you do not write anything.
About 8 years ago I was in a similar situation, when a game where there was only 1 developer also cried that nothing worked, throw off the money, and when you throw off money, he starts crying that if you propose to introduce something into the game, then put it out right away code, so that he "does not waste time on your crazy suggestions", and when you make him a code, he just kept silent. There was a case when I laid out the code for him and wrote a check for a good new update, so he just started to ignore (while introducing other sentences) and when I directly asked "why are you not putting my offer into the game? I did as you asked, most the players approved everything, "he just blocked me and the only thing he could answer me was" you don't understand anything, I don't want to introduce anything of yours, I don't like you. " Anyone who wants to improve the game perceives being ignored as a personal insult, and it is. Especially if you are willing to offer and reward for the introduction.

 

[Manu311 166]

5 hours ago, ZLOfm said:

I understand that the developer does not have the so-called "Resources". If this is money - please tell me where you can throw the money in order to see at least some kind of reaction besides the silence that has already gotten me for many years?

As far as I am aware, most of the "resources" are things that could be bought with more money. You can probably get a new developer for $100,000 a year (I'm personally not that cheap, but I guess I would be if I could work on HoN for that amount) and I assume one additional full-time developer would help a lot with these "resources".
So if you have that much money to throw (and actually want to do that), I'm sure basically everyone at FB would love to talk with you .
There is a donation page linked at the top - right now you can only donate for marketing, but I'm sure if you want to donate some bigger amount to something else (like more "resources"), you could contact the support with that request and they will probably arrange something where you can throw your money at for whatever you want. Of course that probably doesn't mean that they will implement your suggestions because you think they are good. But they could get enough resources to validate whether they are good or not.

That being said, there are also resources which you probably don't want to buy, and I'm directly involved with those: Testers. A while ago SBT got closed because not enough people were willing to test new features anymore. RCT is still rolling, so you don't get all the bugs they find in new patches - however even RCT only has very few active testers left. So if you don't have that much money to throw: Simply apply for one (or multiple) of the volunteer positions and be a valuable resource yourself.

Either way: This thread is about dream patch notes, not about missing resources, so if you want to keep discussing this, please open a new thread.

[ElementUser 831]

8 hours ago, ZLOfm said:

I understand that the developer does not have the so-called "Resources". If this is money - please tell me where you can throw the money in order to see at least some kind of reaction besides the silence that has already gotten me for many years?
 

  Reveal hidden contents

If this is not money, then let them also make an appropriate message. Because it’s already annoying that if you suggest something, they write to you either “the balance is normal” or “to change something, you need money and time, and I’m 1 developer and I can’t do anything,” or in 90% of cases you do not write anything.
About 8 years ago I was in a similar situation, when a game where there was only 1 developer also cried that nothing worked, throw off the money, and when you throw off money, he starts crying that if you propose to introduce something into the game, then put it out right away code, so that he "does not waste time on your crazy suggestions", and when you make him a code, he just kept silent. There was a case when I laid out the code for him and wrote a check for a good new update, so he just started to ignore (while introducing other sentences) and when I directly asked "why are you not putting my offer into the game? I did as you asked, most the players approved everything, "he just blocked me and the only thing he could answer me was" you don't understand anything, I don't want to introduce anything of yours, I don't like you. " Anyone who wants to improve the game perceives being ignored as a personal insult, and it is. Especially if you are willing to offer and reward for the introduction.

 

There's not much you can do about developer resources. The parent company has to accommodate for that. 

 

Even if players donated a million dollars, that doesn't mean they can get what they want. A lot of it is a matter of trust as HoN source code of closed source, and we don't have the authority or permission for any kind of hiring decision. We can't just subcontract or hire developers like that, and only Garena makes the call for that. 

 

Another resource issue is really a permissions issue - even today, our (very small) team at Frostburn does not have access to everything (database, backend servers, master servers) and there's not a lot we can do about it. Even if we did, we would need staff who are familiar with those systems on the backend to do anything, or spend a huge amount of resources (money, time and developer effort and focus) to make a new one. And so forth. 

 

We're in a not so great situation where developers don't have full access to their systems. This is largely why it's so difficult to get anything done for HoN if it's systems-related.

Edited November 25, 2021 by ElementUser

[abomosa 0]

iam glad and happy for your efforts all of you tbh i appreciate that thank you guys for letting this game standing .

 

i know this game right now is better than any other moba games i tried most of them HON now and was the best .

 

if just more heroes and skins add from time to time nothing more will be perfect 

 

do you think guys with everything and the situation is that possible ? 

[ZLOfm 2]

22 hours ago, ElementUser said:

There's not much you can do about developer resources. The parent company has to accommodate for that. 

 

Even if players donated a million dollars, that doesn't mean they can get what they want. A lot of it is a matter of trust as HoN source code of closed source, and we don't have the authority or permission for any kind of hiring decision. We can't just subcontract or hire developers like that, and only Garena makes the call for that. 

 

Another resource issue is really a permissions issue - even today, our (very small) team at Frostburn does not have access to everything (database, backend servers, master servers) and there's not a lot we can do about it. Even if we did, we would need staff who are familiar with those systems on the backend to do anything, or spend a huge amount of resources (money, time and developer effort and focus) to make a new one. And so forth. 

 

We're in a not so great situation where developers don't have full access to their systems. This is largely why it's so difficult to get anything done for HoN if it's systems-related.

 

Listen, maybe then it will be easier for us to negotiate with Garena or who is there now about the purchase of the game and the source code? How can you even negotiate with them?

[ElementUser 831]

24 minutes ago, ZLOfm said:

 

Listen, maybe then it will be easier for us to negotiate with Garena or who is there now about the purchase of the game and the source code? How can you even negotiate with them?

It's not for sale and it's their IP. 

They have been approached at least once a week about selling the IP, the answer is always no from the higher ups. These aren't from random players either, they're from serious prospective purchasers.

Edited November 26, 2021 by ElementUser

[Lunarios 64]

I don't know if it's too late already, but there is one small thing I forgot to add - Flux SotM.

It's a little bit redundant and weak (the effect), in practice it only adds +100 pull/push distance. (while a restoration stone for +/- almost the same price adds +800 pull/push distance)

Can it be changed to something more impactful?

 

[Stahlzeit 13]

13 hours ago, Lunarios said:

I don't know if it's too late already, but there is one small thing I forgot to add - Flux SotM.

It's a little bit redundant and weak (the effect), in practice it only adds +100 pull/push distance. (while a restoration stone for +/- almost the same price adds +800 pull/push distance)

Can it be changed to something more impactful?

 

While it not should'nt simply add more push/pull distant we should discuss if a bond/restrain effect can be added.

Pure damage or slow is also disregarded imo. I'd like to see some kind of 1.5 sec of perplex and fear or with the addition of 3 second restrain afterwards. 

[P4i 1]

new staff effect suggestion:

 

Apex - cause its passive effect around you!

gaulent: Its last possible to be thrown into a specific area there instead of selecting a hero.

[ElementUser 831]

FYI, I implemented a few things from this thread in the 4.10.0 patch. 

[ZLOfm 2]

I would really like to bring Deadlift back to patch before 4.0.0(Death Grip with root, The Dead Shall Rise nuke)

, while weakening the ultimate to 1 charge and forbidding him to recharge this ability with the help of items. SOTM make him resurrect Deadlift after death within 5 seconds (can be interrupted by breaking the gravestone)
In those days, he was a multifunctional and interesting hero, with a huge number of combinations with other heroes, now he is one of the most boring heroes that annoys many players in all game modes.
What was done to him later is just awful. I want to cry.
Do it please, I beg you

 

I would also like to see SOTM on Gravekeeper, for example, infinite corpses from Defiling Touch and Corpse Toss applies an attack on use (also attack modifiers are triggered)
Alternatively - 2 charges for Ultimate

SOTM for Circe - when using the ultimate, the first two abilities are triggered on the target and on all enemy heroes in a 300 radius around the target

Edited December 2, 2021 by ZLOfm

[_stix 0]

I've always thought games would be more fun if the jungle is extended on Kongor's side. Another camp close to the ancients. It always have seemed a bit off to me that there's only an ancients jungle camp on the Kongor's side. It will allow the long lane/suicide more versatility. I also believe it might help in games that snowball hard, since enemy players will likely look to control your jungle and you'd be forced to either fight or split-push the other lanes. I wonder what other people think about this and if it's even achievable?

Edited December 2, 2021 by _stix

[datfizh 38]

Ouch, I forgot to reserve page 3. Well, in the end I still stick to update the first page of my post about dream patch.

[Ravath 1]

War Beast's SotM effect is problematic for 3 reasons:

1. Routinely obsolete - The effect becomes completely useless while WB is transformed. It literally does nothing.
2. Decaying value - During mid/late game, the ult's cooldown becomes shorter, causing SotM's effect to have even less value as WB will be transformed more often.
3. Lack of synergy - Aside from bonus HP, the SotM effect provides mostly offensive bonuses when War Beast needs to be the most defensive (ultimate on cooldown).

Here is my suggestion:

War Beast

Metamorphosis
- Staff of the Master effect change (to pre-existing):
* Previous bonuses removed.
* Increases duration of transformation by 1 second for every count of 'Primal Rage'.
* Optional: Instead, increase move speed bonus while transformed by 8 for every count of 'Primal Rage'.
* Optional: Instead, increase critical chance while transformed by 2% for every count of 'Primal Rage'.
+ Note: counts of 'Primal Rage' cannot be gained before SotM is acquired (see skill below). 

Primal Rage
- Staff of the Master effect addition (new):
* Allows you to cast this skill to target an enemy hero within 1000 range, reducing the target's cast time by 50/60/70/80 and granting vision of the target for 10 seconds. If the target dies while affected by Primal Rage, cooldown is refreshed and War Beast gains one count of 'Primal Rage'. Cooldown: 20 seconds. Mana cost: 50.

Summon Hellhounds
- Staff of the Master effect addition (new):
* Hellhounds' max health increased to 550/600/650/700 and attack speed/time/cooldown are matched to War Beast's.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Ravath

[Ravath 1]

As a potential carry, Riptide lacks proper scalability in his kit. My SotM suggestion provides some scalability and farming utility to open up avenues for carry roles.

Here is my suggestion:

Riptide

In My Element
- Staff of the Master effect addition (new):
* Gains cleave while on water.
* Increases agility while on water: 20 + 30%/45%/60%/75% Agility
* Maximum number of puddles increased to 3/4/5/6, with cast range of 1000.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Ravath

[FireHam 1]

Reverting oogie nerfs made since 4.3.3. Mostly in regards to ulti duration and cooldown.

Reverting the rework of armor of the mad mage, or reinstitute ultors heavy plate.

I miss the old jade spire and would in bias like its return.

[datfizh 38]

Dream patch remains a dream after all. I congratulates some Newerthians here getting their suggestion implemented and soon immortalized.