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Does Gladiator scales so bad? Balancing + Rework-Suggestions


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Hi guys, 

played a lot of Gladiator now, mostly mid. Funny hero, but it's so hard to carry with him.
Tried a lot of builds. Nethertheless which build, if u come into mid / late game, you make less dmg.
Each auto-attack-carry rips you in mid or late game. Even with Showdown, Pitfall, Ult-Combo you are hardly able to chase down enemies in time. 

 

And what about the role of Gladiator? He is no full carry, maximum a semi carry. He is not a tank.

The main purpose of him just seems to be to catch enemies with escape-options (valk, chronos, ...) that your team can put them down.

 

Gladiator really needs a buff or overwork to scale better from mid to late game and to be more a carry.

 

Here my suggestions:

 

- Pitfall: Is ok like it is, but only point with the "dmg over time" you rarely get last hits.
Would be better, if the whole dmg would happen at begin.

 

- Showdown: The range at Lvl 1 is simple to short. You must nearly stand next to the enemy.
You need it Lvl 2 asap, but you also need to get Flagellation up ...

Suggestion: change range from 400/600/800/1000 up to 550/700/850/1000

 

- Flagellation: Does too few dmg in each stage.

Suggestion: Increase dmg from 20/40/60/80 up to 30/50/70/90 or even 40/60/80/100

 

Overwork of Flagellation:

- Option 1: Add Ministun (like Flint Beastwood) in radius of Flagellation

This would make Glad more a Teamplayer and more valuable in meta game. 

You could help team mates to get out of stuns or initialize with a PK + Flagellation to get backyards at enemie lanes.

It would also help against the lack of chasing down single enemies.

 

- Option 2: Switch-Option for Flagellation from multi to single-target with 2x or 2,5x more dmg.

This would make Glad more a full-carry to face auto-attack-carries in late. 

For example you press E and Glad's Flagellation does the 2,5x dmg to the first enemy hit by Flagellation.

Disadvantage here is that the controls may get to complicated, cause then Glad would have 4 active skills. 

Alternatively it could also be passive, calculating the dmg depending on enemy-heroes / creeps in front of you.

 

- Call to Arms: The dmg of Glad's Ultimate scales very bad from mid to late game. Should be increased.

Also the stun time of 1 second and radius is too low.

Think on Ultimate of Keeper of Forrest: It has stun time of 4 seconds and an incredible range.

and you even don't need to aim it. 

 

 

Ok, so these are my points to make Glad a more often played hero. What do you think about it?

Edited by Forst
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Gladiator is not a pure carry, he is a soft support who have a potential to become a decent carry. His damage output most come from his E, which having a cooldown. Trying to build him as a main carry often result a failure.

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Thanks for reply. 

Yes, that's what i figured out. You can't face any auto-attack-carry in late as mentioned above. 

That's why i mostly play him mid to place some ganks at side lanes. 

 

Nethertheless he is listed as carry in the hero list. 

 

But please consider him in some next patches: He got no buff since ages.

- a slightly increase of Stats per Lvl-up - especially Str - to get more tanky and survivable

- An increase of the Showdown range to 550/700/850/1000 would be a fair point. 

- Also a slightly increase of Flagellation bonus dmg by 10 points would be considerable

 

EDIT:

2 points about Showdown: 

- Why is it negatable with Shrunken Head? It's a Single-Target-Spell

- Why does enemies see when u showdown yourself? You can't never escape, cause they just waiting on starting point.

 

 

Edited by Forst
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I think adding a mini stun to the whip could be interesting, but i'd suggest also to increase the cd the of the whip if you do so. As for the rest Gladi is pretty op in lane. A mini stun would increase his utility rather then as a "carry hero"

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On 10/16/2021 at 9:49 PM, ElementUser said:

He's fine as he is right now.

 

He is not a hero very often picked. So i guess a slight buff would be considerable. Also think the community would welcome it and he would be still balanced.

 

If he would just get an increase of stats per lvl-up and increase of showdown range to 550/700/850/1000, he would be fine!

- The lvl-up stats would be good for the metagame, helping him at lack of mana and to get a little bit more tankier.

- Showdown range increase would make him more useful in early ganks, cause as mentioned the current range of 400 at lvl 1 is so low ...

You must nearly stand next to the enemy.

 

I still remember in 2015 or 2016, Showdown was on 1000 range at each lvl always. There was instead an increase of the timer in seconds from 2 up to 4 secs. 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Forst said:

He is not a hero very often picked. 

 

 

uOn62X8.png

 

Having a most picked rank of #53 out of 139 heroes in the hero pool does not equate to "not very often picked".

Edited by ElementUser
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18 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

 

 

uOn62X8.png

 

Having a most picked rank of #53 out of 139 heroes in the hero pool does not equate to "not very often picked".

 

Yes, that's because he is a funny hero to play with his utilities and whip, but he really needs a slight buff.

 

As also already mentioned, he scales very bad from mid to late game. As carry and also in his utility. 

The reason of lacking utility is, that nearly each enemy carry has an SH in mid-to-late-game and can easily negate Showdown and all other utility spells of Glad.

Showdown can even countered by 3 ways: SH, Null or Storm Spirit!

 

Yeah ok, I hope i put some brainstormings in here and may be Glad will be considered in some future patches.

Edited by Forst
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Let's count Gladiator's potentials OP probably ignores:

  • Showdown can be cast to self or allies to disjoint projectile.
  • Showdown can be cast to self or allies when they're teleport to base so they will immediately return to original position.
  • Showdown can be cast on self or allies to save them when they're initiate the enemy base.
  • Most Gladiator abilities can hit stealth unit with proper positioning.
  • Delays on Gladiator abilities can be beneficial in case Gladiator gets disabled later.
  • Call of Arms gives damage absorption by 50% to allies besides damage + stun on its landing location.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

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2 hours ago, datfizh said:

Let's count Gladiator's potentials OP probably ignores:

  • Showdown can be cast to self or allies to disjoint projectile.
  • Showdown can be cast to self or allies when they're teleport to base so they will immediately return to original position.
  • Showdown can be cast on self or allies to save them when they're initiate the enemy base.
  • Most Gladiator abilities can hit stealth unit with proper positioning.
  • Delays on Gladiator abilities can be beneficial in case Gladiator gets disabled later.
  • Call of Arms gives damage absorption by 50% to allies besides damage + stun on its landing location.

 

There are 3 problems with Showdown:

- Enemy can cancel it during run-time. As mentioned above via Null (is valid), Storm Spirit during Run-Time (is valid), SH during run-time.

According SH: It's ok that Glad can not put Showdown on an ememy with active SH, but not if it is cancelable during run time.

- Enemies see, when you showdown yourself or team mate: They are just waiting next to it and kill you

- You can not cancel Showdown (for example with Esc-Button). There would be no problem, if enemies see when you showdown yourself, if it would be cancelable

Edited by Forst
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13 minutes ago, Forst said:

 

There are 3 problems with Showdown:

- Enemy can cancel it during run-time. As mentioned above via Null (is valid), Storm Spirit during Run-Time (is valid), SH during run-time.

According SH: It's ok that Glad can not put Showdown on an ememy with active SH, but not if it is cancelable during run time.

- Enemies see, when you showdown yourself or team mate: They are just waiting next to it and kill you

- You can not cancel Showdown (for example with Esc-Button). There would be no problem, if enemies see when you showdown yourself, if it would be cancelable

Those counters you mentioned cost gold and it's not like everyone can afford them.

I've tested it on practice mode and I guess you meant it is visible visually rather than giving vision so that is normal.

iirc, your ally can also cancel Showdown by using the same method as you mentioned on enemies (excluding Null Stone of course).

In the end, just try against Gladiator next play and you probably will glad your proposed changes don't get implemented.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

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3 hours ago, datfizh said:

I've tested it on practice mode and I guess you meant it is visible visually rather than giving vision so that is normal.

 

Exactly what I meant. Why the hell, enemy team see's when i showdown myself or a teammate. 

 

Nethertheless, your argumentation is well. As u may have recognized, I came apart from a lot of my initial ideas. 

 

Let's just discuss the 2 adustments mentioned above, the rest is fine:

- a slightly increase of Stats per Lvl-Up (for meta-game)

- an increase of the short Showdown range, especially of 400 at lvl 1 (nearly half the screen)

 

These 2 points would only give a slight adjustment to Glad and would not have that impact on balancing.

 

Edited by Forst
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30 minutes ago, Forst said:

 

Exactly what I meant. Why the hell, enemy team see's when i showdown myself or a teammate. 

 

Nethertheless, your argumentation is well. As u may have recognized, I came apart from a lot of my initial ideas. 

 

Let's just discuss the 2 adustments mentioned above, the rest is fine:

- a slightly increase of Stats per Lvl-Up

- the short Showdown range, especially of 400 at lvl 1

 

These 2 points would only give a slight adjustment to Glad to make him more viable for meta-game and would not have that impact on balancing.

 

That's pretty unusual complain if you ask me about visual effect on Showdown. It's pretty much same as complaining about Martyr's wing visually shown to all players.

400 range on Showdown is fine I think because almost no hero can counter that return effect at early phase.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

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well, the current Gladiator dont need a buff but a QoL for his late game. The on/off on his whisplash like dota 2 could be more reason buff. This hero doesn't support to 1:1 with any hard carry. (also if you do this, plz buff the AOE too )

Edited by w3_StarBoy

HoN SEA Player

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7 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

well, the current Gladiator dont need a buff but a QoL for his late game. The on/off on his whisplash like dota 2 could be more reason buff. This hero doesn't support to 1:1 with any hard carry. (also if you do this, plz buff the AOE too )

Never played DOTA 2. I don't know the equivalent of Glad there. How is the hero called there?

Really, there you can switch on/off wishplash. How is this working? May be, I should try.

 

Yes exactly, that's what I felt too. You can't face any auto-attack-carry in late with equal Lvl and item level. 

 

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Still the same, A strong mid lane that can deal a crazy true damage, but lose to any carry hero. But Glad/Kunkka in Dota 2 have very good talent and staff that make him very annoying in combat by keep repeating his spell in a long times. Thus he can on/off his splash make him easy to calculator the AOE (it's similar to Archrana, you can click on creep or set auto cast it)

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On 10/21/2021 at 3:27 PM, w3wstarboy said:

Still the same, A strong mid lane that can deal a crazy true damage, but lose to any carry hero. But Glad/Kunkka in Dota 2 have very good talent and staff that make him very annoying in combat by keep repeating his spell in a long times. Thus he can on/off his splash make him easy to calculator the AOE (it's similar to Archrana, you can click on creep or set auto cast it)

 

Hi, many thanks. Checked it out on Dota-Website.

Now I know, where HoN got the range values for Showdown. They are the same there. I don't know the distance comparison from Dota to HoN.

Flagellation is there on 25/45/65/85 but therefore it's only physical. 25/45/65/85 for Glad would be an option too, but let it true dmg.

 

The switch on/off for Flagellation with Staff sounds nice. But I would rather prefer Option 2 - mention in my first post of this thread - to face hard carries better in late, switching Flagellation from multi- to single-target-dmg with e.g. 1,5 x dmg-boost on first enemy hit.

 

So short summary of discussed points:

- Slightly increase of stats per Lvl to scale better in late

- (Slightly increase of Showdown range - specially at lvl 1)

- (Flagellation true dmg increase from 20/40/60/80 to 25/45/65/85)

- Staff effect to boost Flagellation (switch/on off splash like in DOTA2 or switch on/off like Option2 - first post here) or to boost Ultimate of Glad (Dmg, Stun duration, AOE-effect, whatever)

 

What do u say?

Edited by Forst
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I think increasing the showdown range on Level 1 is a fair point, you kinda have to invest 2 points for it to be useful at the cost of flagellation or pit fall damage. Its a nice quality of life change and does not change the playstyle of the hero or insanely buffs his laning phase performance. 

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23 hours ago, cairosuite said:

I think increasing the showdown range on Level 1 is a fair point, you kinda have to invest 2 points for it to be useful at the cost of flagellation or pit fall damage. Its a nice quality of life change and does not change the playstyle of the hero or insanely buffs his laning phase performance. 

Yes exactly, you bring it to the point!!!

 

With the low range of Showdown, you must get it up asap on cost of Flagellation or Pitfall.

This means:

- On lvl 6: 1x Pitfall, 2x Showdown, 1x Ult, only 2x Flagellation

- On lvl 8: 1x Pitfall, 4x Showdown, 1x Ult, only 2x Flagellation

Against a Str-enemy-Hero you are doing very few dmg at this point.

 

 

 

So here my suggestions again ...

 

QoL-Changes: really necessary

- Showdown Range from 400/600/800/1000 up to 550/700/850/1000

- Increase of stats per lvl to scale better in late and to get more survivability

 

Buff-Changes: making Glad to face carries in late and overall more viable

- Flagellation true dmg increase from 20/40/60/80 to 25/45/65/85

- Staff effect to boost Flagellation (switch/on off splash like in DOTA2 or switch on/off to Single-Target with dmg-multiplier) or to boost Ultimate of Glad (Dmg, Stun duration, AOE-effect, whatever)

 

Then this would be the Glad, I would love to play 🙂

 

Edited by Forst
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there is a reason why showdown range was decreased in the first place, its a very powerful ability. For instance you could play a offlane gladi and catch a mid player off guard from the trees relatively simply and it was done in competitve games which is why it was nerfed to begin with. You shouldn't be leveling up showdown you get one point to refill your bottle and perhaps catch an enemy whose out of position with a longer range it would be cheese. Your leveling pitfall or flagellation and flagellation does not need any buffs, rather i think it needs nerfs on how it cleaves on the sides of the wipe where it does not appear to land.

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16 hours ago, jabawoogie said:

there is a reason why showdown range was decreased in the first place, its a very powerful ability. For instance you could play a offlane gladi and catch a mid player off guard from the trees relatively simply and it was done in competitve games which is why it was nerfed to begin with. You shouldn't be leveling up showdown you get one point to refill your bottle and perhaps catch an enemy whose out of position with a longer range it would be cheese. Your leveling pitfall or flagellation and flagellation does not need any buffs, rather i think it needs nerfs on how it cleaves on the sides of the wipe where it does not appear to land.

I guess you mean the status years ago, were Showdown was on 1000 range always and lvl-ups of it only increased the seconds of triggering.
Of course this could lead to exploits. 

Bot now the range of 400 on lvl1 is nearly 1/3 of the screen. Each support-hero has more range with his stun (e.g. VJ with 600 range on his stun).

It really happens that Glad can be stunned first, before he can land his Showdown cause of the low range on lvl1.  

Edited by Forst
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the only way i'd have showdowns range increased earlier levels is if it had a significant CD increase or reduce showdowns time. However doing either of those would kill some of his other potential plays. So I can't support your suggestion. Again; rather like i've said i'd prefer if they nerfed his cleave so he'd have to be more precise with his whips the hero is really strong almost too strong.

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I appreciate the discussion and if he gets changed later, I'll refer to this thread and consider it. 

 

He's fine now and others have told you why this is the case. 

 

He won't be receiving any buffs at this time. 

Edited by ElementUser
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