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How are you supposed to suicide on this map with an active support pushing you out?


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So I'm often alt-tabbed while waiting for a game now over the summer and in my shitbrick-bracket of high silver/low gold there's quite a few wannabes who always want to carry the game by stacking the odds in their favour. So you end up either being the suicider or the support unless you want to stir the pot. 

I used to enjoy suiciding in the past with the old map that had thicker shrubs. You could basically blink into the middle of the forrest and then just leech, hitting the occassional creep and blink to an other part of it. It was pretty casual and gave great opportunities to gank other lanes as the enemy never knew where you were. 

Things for me have changed with the new map as its goten looser and looser and I just can't avoid being completely boxed out. 
I've tried everything and most of the time if the support is any good and if the two enemy heroes have a combination of stuns/roots/leaps I end up hard-losing the lane.  (0-5~) 


So the obvious thing you can do is pull the camp, but if the support is any good he will be standing there with more money (for heals, due to the Orb of Zamos) and he will be blocking or initiation the pull.
Beyond that, what's left?  I feel like there's too few places to hide and at the same time there's not enough space to really run left to right by say maxing your blink. 

I mostly play Bubbles or Hag in these kind of situations. I've tried goldenveil and it's kinda possible but I just don't like that hero without any items. 
Are there any good videos of good suicide players?


What starting items are you supposed to have? 

Edited by Ondis
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You need to pick a stronger suicide hero, bubbles and hag are  useless, unless you're much better than the enemies and can steamroll the game through split pushing etc.

Pick a stunner like magmus/lodestone, who are also much harder to kill, then buy smoke when you feel like ganking the enemy mid player and try your best.

0-5 in the suicide lane is too much, you have to leave the lane way before that point ^^

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2 minutes ago, Mr`Cactus said:

You need to pick a stronger suicide hero, bubbles and hag are  useless, unless you're much better than the enemies and can steamroll the game through split pushing etc.

Pick a stunner like magmus/lodestone, who are also much harder to kill, then buy smoke when you feel like ganking the enemy mid player and try your best.

0-5 in the suicide lane is too much, you have to leave the lane way before that point ^^

Ah. I guess I'm just too used to the way I played suicide in the past as I did quite well with those heroes. 


But regardless, how do you ever keep up with a support that now gets free gold from the orb and just boxes you out? 
Youll run out of  trees before he does, no? 

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Usually there isn't much you can do about the support free farming with pulls+locket combo, sometimes you can punish them if they get out of position with the right hero (grinex is a very punishing hero for example). You have to analyze the moment and decide what you can do, if you can't stay in lane then you have to win other lanes with your hero, that's why a mobile stunner is usually a very good pick for suicide lane

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Considering the open layout and the orb/locket, is suicide + jungle just below value meta wise to be viable in most situations? 

Yeah makes sense in terms of the mobile stunner.  
So what would you go on a lode or a magmus as items? 

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PR is like the best sui due to his creep deny. You could also block pull camps to prevent the enemy from pulling. 

Heroes like Phara or Chipper can pull medium camp with their spells without being in danger (or you let their support chase you and pull anyway using your spells).

Grinex/NH/Scout can always pull the lane or the camp - support can only be at one place and you are invis so if he guards the pull, pass by and pull the lane.

Kraken/Lode are great sui heroes that are a threat to any support. 

If nothing works you can always hide in the trees if you have a hatchet/blights to cut a tree. Bubs/Hag are still viable as they can still hide pretty well..

 

In general it's crucial to run as soon as the game starts to have a proper position and be able to pull the first wave. For me it works 8/10 games as people are either standing around in the fountain for too long or try to place an early runeward. Either way if you manage to pull the first wave, you already have 1 level advantage on the enemy support.

Get a rev ward to deward the obvious warding spot. Supports even in gold/diamond do ward pretty obvious as they only face a sui hero and do not expect a deward early on. Once dewarded, the enemy support will be distracted and will try to deward your rev ward and place another ward. Perfect time for you to obtain lane control by pulling again.

Get a bottle asap and make sure you get the rune every 2 min. With a good rune, gank mid/jungle. Bottle will make sure that you can better heal or obtain mana than the enemy support.

 

Imho suiciding became pretty easy due to all the choke points and possibilities to pull. Years ago I saw lots of people only hiding as suicide which was boring. In the end your job is to distract the carry as much as possible and deny as much farm as you can. 

If you are strong (managed not to remain underleveled compared to the enemy carry), ask you mid for a gank. If you are underleveled, don't even bother. It's not your teams job to gank your lane if things are not going well. It's your job to annoy the enemy carry and to gank mid to make sure your team wins 2/3 lanes.

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Yeah pulling early and ignoring the 1 potential creep kill you could otherwise get seems like a good plan.
Also should tyr Plague, haven't suicided with him in years. Probably good in this kind of situation like you say. Thanks. 

There's really no "hiding" in the woods anymore, at least IMO. They can follow you through everything and see when you blink out. Plus its too far from one side to the other side until late-early-game. Can't really see it as viable anymore.

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Bubbles and Hag are mid heroes not suicide.

Suicide heroes are mainly strengh heroes with a stun. Behe, mag, lode etc. (you can try devo, ramp and do more of a roam sui).

How you play it? Suicide lane is all about the medium pull camp. In lower bracket you just hide in trees then pull it at .47 seconds to your wave and enjoy free xp. In game with a better support that stops you from pulling you run around to get lvl 2. (you always buy boots on sui). then you go for the 2min rune and try to do something with it. (gank mid, woods, get more xp on your lane, box out the sup etc.).

tl;dr: If the enemy creeps are near your tower you be there and take xp, if they aren't you run around and gank other lanes. Once u get level 6 on most heroes you can ask your mid hero to come with a smoke and kill their carry.

Hope this helps

regards

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So no hope in actively contesting the creepwaves with anything except plague (and as mentioned maybe golden) other than sometimes getting lucky and managing to pull? I guess behemoth could do it too with his Q.  But I've never been a fan of playing him suicide due to the mana cost of this.


Again the question remains then, is it really a viable meta anymore considering that the support is constantly gaining exp and gold from the Orb which they wouldn't be in the past? 

In the past the suicide and the support were more or less equalized. 

What Im asking is basically: Unless a certain hero combo that you think you can survive against better than average, is it better to then always skip jungle? 


A second question is: Is it better to try and go for solo farm + 2 long  due to the safer pull (if ofcs you can convince your team of i?).


Granted from what I've been keeping up the jungle has been made a lot more casual/easy to farm in which might balance this out?
But one aspect that seems to be uncontested is that the suicide hero  is at the  the weakest position since the release of the game based on map layout, orb and say the fact that the support also gains back gold from wards if they last. Making it something truly difficult to progress from.

Edited by Ondis
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The whole point of sui and jungle is that it is more save. You have 2 heroes guaranteed freefarming (short and jungle) while only sacrificing 1 hero (the suicide). When the sui now also helps mid to win then you are very likely to win the game.

Manup lane instead of jungle is good but only if you win it. If you go manup and not completely destroy the lane you gonna have 2 useless heroes (opposite to only 1 sui) and you also won't have a freefarm jungle. WhIch makes the game more risky since u really depend on your long lane to win.

Jungle and solo short can work depending on what hero you pick short and what hero plays suicide. It's a rather situational strategy.

Just think of it like this: If you play suicide your main goal is to make either your short lane (if the enemies play manup) or your mid lane win. Getting xp and stopping the enemy carry from farm is only your 2nd goal.

 

Edit: Of course all of this only applies if you have a jungler that can actually play his role. Idk in what bracket you play.

Edit2: Look at it like a gambit in chess: Sacrifice 1 piece to gain a positional advantage on the board.

Edited by Froschbein
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Bubbles and hag are still super viable on offlane as you always gain the required xp. It's just cruicial to get early level (with any sui hero). Kraken and lode can contest the lane/the pull rather easily. It ofc also depends on your enemy team.. 

There are quite a few hiding spots left but in general that's almost never an option as enemy will just perma deny and you will not gain the level advantage that you need. Supports usually can't follow you. You don't even necessarily have to fully pull a wave, if you make sure that you distract the creeps once in a while, tower will do the rest. Besides, enemy support also will not gain xp/levels during that time.

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Plague Rider is irreplaceable as sui. Great range, worth buffing the damage.
Deny creeps ability (if you do it far enough from the enemy hero, he won't get any experience at all) and gold ofc. As one of the few, he is able to defeat 2 or even 3 heroes with one ult.

A great and very versatile herok

 

Now I will play New World and buy New World Coins

New world gold and coins are what interests me the most in this type of games. I still buy New World coins

https://odealo.com/games/new-world/coins

Edited by NineYoGirI
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Okay I just tried Plague and damn you guys were right. Even though we lost that game it was a super solid pick. I mean I knew he was solid since long ago but its just so smooth. You got mana-management, you can hit more enemies as mentioned and you can sneak off a creep now and then plus pulling that easy lane is relatively easy but you can actually get something from it and not just give your enemies free farm to save a wave. 

First hero in a long time that felt rewarding playing there except for golden. 

Also while not ganking creep wave management is pretty easy, sadly on my bracket too many people will fuck that up too easily.

Edited by Ondis
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You could also give succu a shot. She is best in trading 1vs1 and can easily sleep another target. Mana management might be an issue.

 

Solid sui heros are also Warbeast/Wildsoul as you can pull any lane without risk and farm these waves (tho, they are not really teamfight heroes and it only works if you have a mid that doesn't need farm as well as else you would simple take too much farm from your cores).

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Plague Rider is by far the best suicide hero, I've tried Lodestone and he is o.k, not nearly as good thought. I agree Bubbles and Hag are pretty useless as a suicide, you can survive but you'll be grossly under leveled and under farmed unless you are a much better player than they are. 

I am a Silver I but I've been winning most my games with a Plague Rider suicide. Some tips for him, my strat anyway which seems to work. Start with only boots, deny the first creep at the tower, always deny the melee creep because they give more experience and gold. Get a level 2 extinguish and you can spam Contagion as much as you want without having to buy any mana regen. Deny the creeps back far enough so they get no experience for that creep. You can use Contagion to harass or to last hit, and if they are close by a creep trying to deny then you can last hit the creep and the splash damage will hurt him at the same time. Whenever there is nothing to do you can always stack and ult ancients.

For items, I like to go Striders > Jade Spire > Portal Key in that order. In team fights you can hide way in the back, wait for two of them to get close together then p.k and ult really quick. If they are close to the trees you can P.K in the trees and ult as well, so they'll never even see you. After that, you can get the staff if you want or whichever items fits your needs. 

Last game I had with Plague Rider, 10 minutes into the game I had 35 creep kills, 13 denies, and 247 GPM. Their carry had 62 creep kills but our jungler had 62 as well. I think he could have gotten a lot more than that in the jungle, seems like he messed up. But it's usually a favorable trade off between your jungler and their carry if you can suicide well with Plague. 

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7 hours ago, LeahhGotti said:

Plague Rider is by far the best suicide hero, I've tried Lodestone and he is o.k, not nearly as good thought. I agree Bubbles and Hag are pretty useless as a suicide, you can survive but you'll be grossly under leveled and under farmed unless you are a much better player than they are. 

I am a Silver I but I've been winning most my games with a Plague Rider suicide. Some tips for him, my strat anyway which seems to work. Start with only boots, deny the first creep at the tower, always deny the melee creep because they give more experience and gold. Get a level 2 extinguish and you can spam Contagion as much as you want without having to buy any mana regen. Deny the creeps back far enough so they get no experience for that creep. You can use Contagion to harass or to last hit, and if they are close by a creep trying to deny then you can last hit the creep and the splash damage will hurt him at the same time. Whenever there is nothing to do you can always stack and ult ancients.

For items, I like to go Striders > Jade Spire > Portal Key in that order. In team fights you can hide way in the back, wait for two of them to get close together then p.k and ult really quick. If they are close to the trees you can P.K in the trees and ult as well, so they'll never even see you. After that, you can get the staff if you want or whichever items fits your needs. 

Last game I had with Plague Rider, 10 minutes into the game I had 35 creep kills, 13 denies, and 247 GPM. Their carry had 62 creep kills but our jungler had 62 as well. I think he could have gotten a lot more than that in the jungle, seems like he messed up. But it's usually a favorable trade off between your jungler and their carry if you can suicide well with Plague. 

I may have a bit overexplained in my posts before. Plague is a solid suicide pick for lower mmr games. Deny a creep, get lanecontrol, get some farm and xp + x3 and kill ancients.

If you however play against more expierenced players they will just stack & pull the medium camp, get double xp + gold while you can not do anything and stay low level. (blocking the pull camp is an option but it can also be unblocked). In addition Plague is very easy to kill. Any carry + support with stun kills you from level 1. What i tried to express in my previous posts is that a lvl 3 Plague at 7min is completely useless while a lvl 3 behe, mag, lode etc. can still have impact in the game.

 

regards

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11 hours ago, Froschbein said:

I may have a bit overexplained in my posts before. Plague is a solid suicide pick for lower mmr games. Deny a creep, get lanecontrol, get some farm and xp + x3 and kill ancients.

If you however play against more expierenced players they will just stack & pull the medium camp, get double xp + gold while you can not do anything and stay low level. (blocking the pull camp is an option but it can also be unblocked). In addition Plague is very easy to kill. Any carry + support with stun kills you from level 1. What i tried to express in my previous posts is that a lvl 3 Plague at 7min is completely useless while a lvl 3 behe, mag, lode etc. can still have impact in the game.

 

regards

I see your point but my friend made it to 1800 MMR solo queing playing mostly Plague Rider. I don't see him as being a low MMR hero, 1500, 1600, 1700, or 1800 he still works good. And the original poster is 1500 is why I brought it up.

Edited by LeahhGotti
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How to SUI with any hero guide. Buy boots and deward the lane/rune ward. (if you find yourself being found by the support suspiciously he probably has a lane ward if he cannot find you hiding he probably did a rune ward) Stack ancients and grab rune. Accept that you probably lost the lane; don't give the carry anymore advantage than they already have by going 0-5. Make sure you have enough HP/MANA incase your jungler or mid comes to gank.

 

Most of the time though you want to pick a hero that has high impact without gold.

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I've never not been able to find a suiider within  30 sec - 1 min nowdays, what are you talking about? If he's not on one side he's on the other. 
No level 1 skill can blink between the two fields of trees?


Also overall you've lost the lane, yes. But you don't want to completely abandon it. 
 
I really question stacking ancients is worth it in a meta sense. If you feel compelled to do that you really rather shouldn't have a suicide. 

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Yes you are correct. Ofc in theory if the sui hero is not on one side he's on the other. There are people who will chop down trees to hide in specific places that the support might miss. So one side might look clear and the support will go check somewhere else but the sui laner was actually on the side that was already cleared etc.. Also I believe you said you play heroes like Hag and Bubbles. They can easily hide in the trees with their gap closing abilities. (Shell Surf and Flash of Darkness). The lane ward for the support basically guarantees that they are on a specific side and they haven't moved without the support seeing them.

The support cannot be running around each side trying to find the sui as they have other necessary things to do such as stack and pull the lane so they can maximize the gold and experience potential.

Clearing the lane ward opens up many things for the sui hero. They can find different hiding spots to leech exp and potential a few creeps here and there. If the sui gets the support to follow/find them. The support might not be in position to block the pull camp either. If the sui can get the pull it means more exp and potential gold in the tower.

Stacking the ancients will not be for you unless you're playing Plague Rider. It'll be for your jungle. A good jungle should be able to take those triple stacks sooner than later. At this point its basically the Jungle and SUI EXP/FARM versus the Short Farmer and Support.

 

SUI is a very hard role.

It's not as cut and dry and I'm making it sound like in the post. Imo this is the bare minimum that you would need to know if you're playing this role.

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I know Im not stacking for myself. Im saying that the time wasted running to the ancients and back is more than 1 creepwave lost (1 full + parts of the other)  and potential jungle creep not being contested.  


 

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On 8/19/2021 at 6:34 AM, Ondis said:

I know Im not stacking for myself. Im saying that the time wasted running to the ancients and back is more than 1 creepwave lost (1 full + parts of the other)  and potential jungle creep not being contested.  

If you are Plague Rider, you only need to stack the ancients once before you get to a level 6. Get the striders and pick a time when the creep wave gets pushed toward their tower and you can't get close to them anyway. Once you're a level 6, make another trip, stack and ult ancients at the same time, it will be worth it. 
 

 

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Not sure if it's still worth it after the last nerf. If you have nothing better to do, sure, but his ult has quite a long CD and with only 60% gold/xp gained from killing ancients, it might be better used in a small teamfight.. But yeah, it's a case to case decision to make. If there is nothing worth ganking, you can still take that xp+gold. Else your carry can take it a bit later. Stacking is surely worth it if you have no chance of gaining xp/gold in another way (you are boxed out and are not able to pull).

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