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Regarding Faux Bow and Adeve's Cloak


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I've seen some fair use of Adeve's Cloak, but I don't think it's picked up enough. The issue seems to be that a core hero won't buy the item as he needs other important items + the downside of the damage reduction output is too heavy for a core hero. I'm talking about midlane heroes, semi-carries, junglers, short-farm carries. A support won't pick the item up as usually a support needs other more "supportive" items, PK/Astrolabe/Wards/Stormspirit/Sand Scepter/etc. This leaves the item at a spot where mostly a solo-offlane or a duo-offlane farmer are able to utilize the item. And inside that role, only a specific pool of heroes are able to synergize properly with the item. This leaves the item at a very undesirable spot with a very low purchase-rate. (At least, in my opinion.)

I suggest to increase the timer duration of the Adeve's Cloak effect, from 3 seconds to 4 > 5 seconds (With recipe level 1>2 respectively). Increase the Adeve's Cloak Debuff/Stun/Damage Reduction values from 15>40 into 35>50. And finally, change the values from the Damage Output Reduction from 85>60 into 90>75 (Nerf).

I think those changes should increase the defensive aspect of Adeve's Cloak, while preventing it from becoming a too-widespread item amongst heroes that do not primarily benefit from the effects. This way, it will become a more lucrative choice for heroes like Ichor, Lodestone, Pharaoh, etc. (Frontline tankers)

 

Regarding Faux Bow, I was excited at first to hear about the item - but to my dismay, the item has proven to be lackluster in actual gameplay. I have yet to see the item in play ever since the patch came out, except the first few days when people were trying it out. In fact, I have a feeling that the item may only see use in Mid Wars (which I do not play, so I do not know).

I think the item suffers from a few flaws that prevent it from being used:

1. It's expensive.     2. It provides little stat benefit for its price tag.     3. The active mechanic is very clumsy to use and very difficult to get a proper grasp on.

4. The item slot that it takes prevents another, better item, from taking its spot.     5. The gold used to purchase the item prevents another, better item, from being purchased.

 

Regarding issues 1, 2, 4 and 5 - They are of lesser importance in my opinion. Since as it currently stands, the active mechanic is unusable in actual gameplay except for extremely niche situations, which prevents from the item gaining justification for its low stat benfit, high relative cost and loss of alternative opportunities.

This brings us to point number 3 - The active mechanic. I really like the idea behind it, don't get me wrong. I love slow games, I love the long-distance sniping aspect, but as it is - I think it has to be changed to be picked up more often.

I suggest this -

Current Stats:

Alacrity Band(1200g), Soulscream Ring(440g), Fleetfeet(450g), Faux Bow Recipe(910g)

Price: 3000

+8 STR, +14 AGI, +8 INT, +30 ATTACK SPEED

Target: Unit, Range: 650, CD: 20 sec

Effect: Target an enemy hero within range to gain +70 Attack Speed, Infinite Attack Range, 50% truestrike for up to 6sec / 4 attacks. Infinite range only to ranged heroes. 

New Stats:

Price: 4200

Alacrity Band(1200g), Steamstaff(800g), Quickblade(1000g), Faux Bow Recipe(1200g)

+50 ATTACK SPEED, +15 ATTACK DAMAGE, +15 AGI

Target: Unit, Range: 2000, CD: 75 sec

Effect: Target an enemy hero within range to begin channeling for 2 seconds. Upon channeling completion, begins firing a volley of 4 autoattacks with regular stats/modifiers (interruption to the volley causes the effect to end prematurely). The autoattack damage scales based on distance from the targeting hero, starting off at 200% damage at 0 range, dropping down to 50% damage at 2000 range respectively and linearly. Only ranged heroes may use the active effect. Requires vision of the targeted enemy at all times for an autoattack to occur - if the vision is broken, the effect ends prematurely. If the enemy moves away further than 2500 range, the effect ends prematurely.

Edited by Lunarios
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I think that most issues of Adeve's cloak could be solved if the item had 3 recipes instead of 2, and making the cost cheaper (from 1100 to 750)

From that point, values can scale better. Duration can smoothly go 3 - 4 - 5, damage reduction can go 15-30-45 and so on

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Tried the cloack for the first time a few days ago while being PR. When i saw how bad it can impact my ult in teamfights i sold it 😞

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Personally I want to suggest a change on Faux Bow's active into a skillshot knowing there is no skillshot item yet (okay, Arcane Bomb could be called a skillshot on its active but you know what I mean).

Also, I have written my suggested change regarding Adeve's Cloak: 

 

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

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On 7/31/2021 at 12:19 PM, datfizh said:

Personally I want to suggest a change on Faux Bow's active into a skillshot knowing there is no skillshot item yet (okay, Arcane Bomb could be called a skillshot on its active but you know what I mean).

Also, I have written my suggested change regarding Adeve's Cloak: 

 

I also thought about posting a skillshot variant to Faux Bow, which is also a very good variant.

I love the philosophy behind Faux Bow, however the item in its current form is not very usable.

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Well, I propose the idea of Faux Bow's new activation in response to my previous post on this thread: 

 

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

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  • 1 month later...

Im in general not a fan of items that lower your damage output. Didn't like it when this was added to VoidTalisman and certainly don't like it on an item that has a freakin PASSIVE trigger.

Should be changed.  Makes it extremely unintuitive and just an expensive kind of "escape" utility that as OP says is a bit too expensive for your full support anyway. 

I mean it has some other uses, other heroes "can" use it, like a devo ultying someone where damage isn't the main thing like in a full team fight, but then it really is an issue in a 1v1 after the ult. 

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Don't think you get the point of Adeve's Cloak. It adds a soft counter to something that has no intrinsic counter in the game (unreactable burst), while discouraging conventional DPS heroes from picking it up. It's meant to better ensure that heroes with important spells actually get them off if they get jumped first. 

It will receive small numerical buffs next patch, and is considered a well-designed version of Aeon Disk from Dota2. 

 

===

 

Faux Bow is problematic because of what playstyle it enables, as well as it getting conflicting niches over other items of that price point. I can very easily disable the item again at any point if I wish. It's just not a good item to play against if it's strongly viable. 

Edited by ElementUser
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You're right. I didn't quite see it for that. 


It's a pure balancing item for the sake of evening out fights and enabling heroes do their thing. I completely get what you're going for and nothing I say will change my mind. I wish I could explain myself better. 

I had no idea about this item in DotA 2 though I don't really play the game anymore. 
I can see how in a pro match a counter-initiation attempt by one-trick pony type of hero like Behemoth being ruined by a chance stun thrown out by say Witch Slayer could ruin that initiation. Or for example Pearl and their ultimate's when being targeted by a flint or chronos in the middle of a fight.  But I feel that this is part of the charm and chaotic nature of the game that I'd like to preserve.  I like the idea that you can completely outplay a hero and subsequently a team by virtue of strategic positioning and initiation and I'd like to hear your views on why you don't. 

But my other criticism stands. When  the item is not being employed in this manner or other ways where it has an advantage then the item is counter-intuitive and could cost you a fight where you are dealing damage, going in first and aiming for the kill. 

So I think an option to toggle the active part of it off and on would be good regardless of the other arguments. 

Edited by Ondis
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1 hour ago, Ondis said:

You're right. I didn't quite see it for that. 


It's a pure balancing item for the sake of evening out fights and enabling heroes do their thing. I completely get what you're going for and nothing I say will change my mind. I wish I could explain myself better. 

I had no idea about this item in DotA 2 though I don't really play the game anymore. 
I can see how in a pro match a counter-initiation attempt by one-trick pony type of hero like Behemoth being ruined by a chance stun thrown out by say Witch Slayer could ruin that initiation. Or for example Pearl and their ultimate's when being targeted by a flint or chronos in the middle of a fight.  But I feel that this is part of the charm and chaotic nature of the game that I'd like to preserve.  I like the idea that you can completely outplay a hero and subsequently a team by virtue of strategic positioning and initiation and I'd like to hear your views on why you don't. 

But my other criticism stands. When  the item is not being employed in this manner or other ways where it has an advantage then the item is counter-intuitive and could cost you a fight where you are dealing damage, going in first and aiming for the kill. 

So I think an option to toggle the active part of it off and on would be good regardless of the other arguments. 

I think this can work as long as turning it on again has some restrictions, like not being able to toggle it while disabled, of giving it a 3 second cd after toggling it on. Else, players will have too much control of the item which would break any initiation (right now you can bait the passive's activation and reengage later)

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It is intended for players to not be able to toggle the passive ability off. The penalty is there to better ensure that the item is only picked up on certain heroes & for a very particular purpose. 

 

That doesn't prevent certain key carry heroes that also have some gamebreaking spells to pull off from picking it up, like Chronos. It just makes this item a very situational pickup for those carry heroes. 

 

All of this is intended by design. I don't want this item to be picked up by carries pretty often unless they're getting focused a lot in the late game and just die before they can do anything. 

 

HoN could use more items and abilities that require decision-making and risk reward considerations anyway. People complained that there wasn't enough of that, now you're complaining that this item has a downside. It's even better that this is intended by design then. 

Edited by ElementUser
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I really like Adeve's Cloak, I'm picking it up on certain heroes quite often in its current state. (Ichor, Lodestone, Cthuluphant) - It's extremely good with Lodestone's ultimate, giving him reduction while having 0 armor/magic armor. It's also extremely good with Barbed Armor, as Adeve's Cloak damage reduction doesn't affect Barbed Armor. Imo 40% damage reduction is a bit too low for an item that can only be picked on specific heroes for 3400 gold total, but that's my opinion - other than that I think its a very good and balanced item.

 

I don't know what will happen to Faux Bow, but it's never being picked on any hero in any game. Design wise it's very interesting, in practice the game pace is just too fast to make use of the active ability on it.

I wish it doesn't get disabled because I like the item in theory and I am just waiting/looking for a chance to use it (I even tried it with Tarot, since Tarot W gives vision of the target so in theory she has the best synergy with the item - but in practice, its too clunky to use and usually if you can W the enemy target he's going to die regardless of the Faux bow or not, and it's just too much to think about mid-fight - to activate it, that is).

The issue is if the range gets extended from 650 activation range into 1000 range, I think it's gonna be OP and everyone will be picking that item up, and it will just create a situation where every carry basically becomes a legionnaire with a PK.

Perhaps just a conversion into an offensive item choice (passive stats, that is) with an activation ability of "target enemy hero within global range to perform 1 autoattack with infinite range" *cooldown - 120 sec*. This will limit the item to be used only in very specific situations (Ganks across map, picking off fleeing heroes within vision, luck shots with crits). This will kind of make it a codex-esque item however, with very limited use.

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There's a big difference from something like an Elder Parasite that makes perfect contextual sense in sofar that you go for the kill, you boost your DPS but you exchange that for increased damage to self - increased risk and reward.


This item works almost the opposite way; rewards and according to what I understand now is intended to counter what is essentially bad positioning - but also helps with when you're having bad reflexes.  At the same time the item could be actively punishing you if you're doing your combo perfectly and take some damage while you get targeted down. 

At the same time it might be a very strong item in various weird ways, in a pro match it might turn a losing fight into a winning one and I'm not sure I like that. But in a silver/gold game it might turn a winning fight into a losing one. It might sound like the same thing but it works differently. 

In Silver/Gold people may not quite be aware of the impact Adeves cloak may have. We could be doing everything right from what is expected in our bracket, targeting down the right guy, chaining disables. But they will waste everything on the person and then not be able to win that fight. 


It's a weird item. It absolute has its uses and Ill pick it up even more now with the suggestions posted in this board. But I'd rather it not exist. 
 

Edited by Ondis
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All you have to do if you pick up the item on the right heroes is initiate. That way you don't care if you lose damage after you initiate, as you have already used your most important spells, and you barely take damage if you initiate properly. But then you're not really getting anything out of it & not picking up the item in the situations where it shines the most (when you get initiated on). 

The design heavily discourages damage dealing heroes from picking it up, and focuses more on the utility of those gamebreaking spells being pulled off more so than the damage. 

You just see it as bad design because you lack control of it. But if you have control over the item's activation, it would be too good. 

It's a niche item not meant to be a common pickup. I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but really I don't think you get it. You can complain all you want about the item, but the item has a specific intent and role in mind so that it's not ubiquitous in its pickup and usage. 

Edited by ElementUser
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People dont pick it because the items have the serious problem. Not because the item is niche.

You cant target the other heroes until your 4 charge run out, and you need to get close to the target to cast. When you relize the enemy started to run away from you. It's too late to cast it

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I get you, I think you misunderstand me or don't want to see my point here.  What I meant about the silver/gold bracket is that people will target the person with Adeves cloak not quite understanding how powerful it is in late game. 


I do understand everything you've said and it clearly has a use. I just don't like the fact that it has that niche use where it essentially protects you from bad play but can mess you up when you're doing everything right.
I think I'd rather want a weaker item with a possibility to toggle off and on, but then it wouldnt be the item you want so that's a moot point I guess. 

 

Edited by Ondis
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