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Nerf The Jungle in the Early Phase


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I write this pleading for a nerf to the jungle in the early stage, since there are few players who make a good performance in the jungle in the early phase, usually the players who go jungle from minute 0 force the other 4 of the team to settle and generally risk losing a line and that enemy hero grabs advantage over even in some cases the same mid, I suggest that the jungle creeps give less gold and experience at the beginning of the game and that at minute 10 onwards (usually here ends the stage of lines) and give the amount of gold they give at the moment they can "but in this way we would be ruining the players who enjoy and know how to play a jungle hero" the case with which I defend my order is Plague Rider that his ulti collects 60% gold and xp from the jungle mobs and even so those who know how to use the hero are not affected at all by this nerf that had the hero a few patches back, please take it into account, Every day someone ruins the game for me and the other 3 people on the team, again I beg them #NoMoreEJunglers
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6 hours ago, Mr`Cactus said:

the massive exp gain (lv 8+ by min 6) is the only thing that makes jungle viable

Agreed. Jungling is a risky strategy. Honestly I think everything is fine atm regarding jungle. Reducing xp/gold gain would result in several heroes could as well be removed from the game.

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Jungling is at arguably at one of its finer points throughout the game's history. Many jungle heroes are viable, they all have their distinct rotations that when properly executed gives them significant reward, and yet jungling still carries a large risk of giving the enemy carry plenty of free farm that necessitates the jungler to make up for his early game passiveness. Moreover, the meta is at a point where having multiple cores can be at least as effective if not more so than an overfarmed single core, so there are relatively equal amounts of both risk and reward for having a jungler on your team - and all the less reason to make significant changes to them.

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Many player (mostly low mmr) have an unjustified hate towards jungle, they get mad when their salo gets a mock at min 12 or so cuz he havent been ganking (despite his 0 impact early game on ganks due to having to max e first) instead of being glad he will carry the game for them, usually they dont even play jungle.

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Posted (edited)

Lol sounds to me like you want to force the game to be 2-1-2. Honestly it's not even the jungle's fault. It's the people playing jungle/sui. I've seen some people who absolutely have no clue how to jungle and afk all game and I've seen some people play suicide lane thinking they have to win the lane and when they lose, they come back over and over and start complaining when they could easily minimize their deaths.

 

If anything, I think people in the lower tier bracket need a crash course on how to play jungle/sui. This strat still works, you just gotta have the right players to do it. But if you're solo queueing and expecting games to be perfect well... You got another thing coming. If you want to run sui/jungle, I highly recommend queueing with friends that can play these roles properly and then re-evaluate your point of view again. Yes their short farm carry will get free farm but so does your jungler. An active ophelia or parasite are things to be afraid of. 

Edited by Whyzozerious
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Yeah, jungling doesn't work in the 1500 to 1600 bracket on a solo que, it usually results in a loss. I don't know why people do it other than to screw around. When it takes them eight minutes to get to a level 6 and they don't gank, they are not taking the game seriously. Nerfing would just make it more painful. 

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I update the post, after I created the topic I proposed to test my point by reading several reply, I will start:

1. Play 25 games in jungle (with friends and in only queue) with someone who knows how to play suicidal and with someone who knows how to play the short line alone (without a support) and I can say that we lost 60% of the games.

2. Our range of all the party because in some we became 5 players not 3 was only between gold 2 to diamond 2

3. Both the suicidal player and the lone carry said that the hero who goes jungle generates an imbalance if or if in either of the two lines, causing that line to be lost and in some cases both

4. Could you say well and what was the draft? We use the heroes that go jungle, suicidal, carry solitary with more percentage of use / victory in the game that by a great chance several are our favorite heroes

5. Some of those enemy heroes who benefited from their early line stage, usually won the game (both short and long lines)

6. Although I (the jungle hero) in the 25 games nobody in any game generated any complications (delay of the farm or blocking of fields) and had a good gpm and my essential items in each hero did not achieve (at the end of the early stage) I could not face by myself that enemy hero benefited.

With these 6 points named (I have more points scored in a word that I believe) I hope it is enough to reconsider my request to nerfear the jungle so that the cases of 1-1-2 or 2-1-1 and a hero in jungle that I reiterate affects all the lines and does not always translate to a victory.

 

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2 hours ago, CDLX said:

I update the post, after I created the topic I proposed to test my point by reading several reply, I will start:

 

1. Play 25 games in jungle (with friends and in only queue) with someone who knows how to play suicidal and with someone who knows how to play the short line alone (without a support) and I can say that we lost 60% of the games.

 

2. Our range of all the party because in some we became 5 players not 3 was only between gold 2 to diamond 2

 

3. Both the suicidal player and the lone carry said that the hero who goes jungle generates an imbalance if or if in either of the two lines, causing that line to be lost and in some cases both

 

4. Could you say well and what was the draft? We use the heroes that go jungle, suicidal, carry solitary with more percentage of use / victory in the game that by a great chance several are our favorite heroes

 

5. Some of those enemy heroes who benefited from their early line stage, usually won the game (both short and long lines)

 

6. Although I (the jungle hero) in the 25 games nobody in any game generated any complications (delay of the farm or blocking of fields) and had a good gpm and my essential items in each hero did not achieve (at the end of the early stage) I could not face by myself that enemy hero benefited.

 

With these 6 points named (I have more points scored in a word that I believe) I hope it is enough to reconsider my request to nerfear the jungle so that the cases of 1-1-2 or 2-1-1 and a hero in jungle that I reiterate affects all the lines and does not always translate to a victory.

 

 

 

 

Wait til you hear about 1-1-3 games. 

Will your Brain explode if me and My Friends went 2 MID? 

 

I Love that we can choose. 

 

 

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I've mentioned this in streamer chats before, but I wouldn't mind seeing an early change to woods, so that only the two "pull" camps spawn for the first 5 minutes of the game, making it so that if you play a traditional wooder, you would have to start out on lane, and then move into the woods once the timer is up.

I like playing wooders, but I hate the fact that you are playing PVE in a PVP game. I'd rather have players move around, and be active against each other, rather than play World of Newerth, latest MMO from Frostburn!

With a 5 minute timer, you make it so that you can still farm woods in late early game, and outwards, so that you can create space for your carry to farm.

It just makes it so that at least the game is more centered around player vs player interraction, rather than vs creeps in the woods.

 

I'm sure there are counter points to this, so if you feel there might be better iterrations, or it's just outright silly, speak up! 😄

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29 minutes ago, Seffers said:

I've mentioned this in streamer chats before, but I wouldn't mind seeing an early change to woods, so that only the two "pull" camps spawn for the first 5 minutes of the game, making it so that if you play a traditional wooder, you would have to start out on lane, and then move into the woods once the timer is up.

I like playing wooders, but I hate the fact that you are playing PVE in a PVP game. I'd rather have players move around, and be active against each other, rather than play World of Newerth, latest MMO from Frostburn!

With a 5 minute timer, you make it so that you can still farm woods in late early game, and outwards, so that you can create space for your carry to farm.

It just makes it so that at least the game is more centered around player vs player interraction, rather than vs creeps in the woods.

 

I'm sure there are counter points to this, so if you feel there might be better iterrations, or it's just outright silly, speak up! 😄

Right now a lot of the complexity of jungling - and what raises the skill cap for jungling, so that it doesn't spiral into a low risk and high reward strategy, is the unique early jungle rotations for different jungle heroes that good jungle players need to master, not to mention striking the right balance between farming neutrals and ganking.  There's nothing stopping a good jungle player from making his presence felt in any lane from 1 min onwards: Ophelia/Parasite/Solstice can gank from Level 2 onwards, place pressure on enemy mid-lane, counter wards, camp runes etc. and right now the meta is already geared towards rewarding active jungle players as opposed to afk farmers. 

Also, against your point about placing a 5 minute timer before jungling is possible, any hero with a 200+ damage nuke upon reaching lvl 5 by 5 minute, which is probably over half the hero pool, can go into jungle so this completely defeats the purpose of having dedicated jungle heroes and in effect removing the playstyle entirely. If you feel like you're always playing PVE as a jungler, then you're most likely playing it wrong. Some exceptions remain e.g. Wildsoul, Zephyr, Warbeast etc. but that doesn't mean you can't still camp runes nor avoid mastering advantageous jungling rotations to get the most out of your hero, role, and impact to the game.

Edited by permias
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5 hours ago, CDLX said:

I update the post, after I created the topic I proposed to test my point by reading several reply, I will start:

 

1. Play 25 games in jungle (with friends and in only queue) with someone who knows how to play suicidal and with someone who knows how to play the short line alone (without a support) and I can say that we lost 60% of the games.

 

2. Our range of all the party because in some we became 5 players not 3 was only between gold 2 to diamond 2

 

3. Both the suicidal player and the lone carry said that the hero who goes jungle generates an imbalance if or if in either of the two lines, causing that line to be lost and in some cases both

 

4. Could you say well and what was the draft? We use the heroes that go jungle, suicidal, carry solitary with more percentage of use / victory in the game that by a great chance several are our favorite heroes

 

5. Some of those enemy heroes who benefited from their early line stage, usually won the game (both short and long lines)

 

6. Although I (the jungle hero) in the 25 games nobody in any game generated any complications (delay of the farm or blocking of fields) and had a good gpm and my essential items in each hero did not achieve (at the end of the early stage) I could not face by myself that enemy hero benefited.

 

With these 6 points named (I have more points scored in a word that I believe) I hope it is enough to reconsider my request to nerfear the jungle so that the cases of 1-1-2 or 2-1-1 and a hero in jungle that I reiterate affects all the lines and does not always translate to a victory.

 

 

 

 

1.) Then that means you guys don't know how to play jungle/suicide lane properly if you're losing 60% of your games.

2.) That means nothing to me. There's people in diamond 1/legendary 2 that have no clue how to play jungle/sui lanes.

3.) Suicide lane isn't a lane that's meant to be won. This is low tier player mentality. Your goal is to survive the lane without dying. And if you die, you minimize your deaths by doing many things. Lane control, ganking, pulling, etc. There's so many ways to play suicide lane. If enemy team picks a weak short farmer/support, you have a good chance of winning the lane with a hero that can win 2v1 lanes.

4.) What?

5.) Huh?

6.) You probably don't have a clue how to play jungle properly. Go watch some What_You_Got jungle educational guides.

 

Jungle does not need a nerf. Just because its there, it doesn't mean it requires a nerf because it doesn't fit your preference. Again, people need a crash course on how to play these two lanes properly. I've seen solstice players be level 4 in 8 minutes and complaining that our support didn't stack for him. I've seen suicide players complain about not winning their lane and keep dying over and over again. You're going to tell me that a short farm TDL with a cleaver is scarier than an ophelia that has pushed and ganked a shit ton of towers? Cool, by the time short farmer got their first item, a parasite would've had their abyssal skull/pk or codex to pressure lanes that are struggling against jungle ganks. Hell, even a suicide magmus would be annoying to deal with if they're camping runes and ganking. Again, most of you people need to learn how to play these roles properly.

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1 hour ago, Whyzozerious said:

1.) Then that means you guys don't know how to play jungle/suicide lane properly if you're losing 60% of your games.

2.) That means nothing to me. There's people in diamond 1/legendary 2 that have no clue how to play jungle/sui lanes.

3.) Suicide lane isn't a lane that's meant to be won. This is low tier player mentality. Your goal is to survive the lane without dying. And if you die, you minimize your deaths by doing many things. Lane control, ganking, pulling, etc. There's so many ways to play suicide lane. If enemy team picks a weak short farmer/support, you have a good chance of winning the lane with a hero that can win 2v1 lanes.

4.) What?

5.) Huh?

6.) You probably don't have a clue how to play jungle properly. Go watch some What_You_Got jungle educational guides.

 

Jungle does not need a nerf. Just because its there, it doesn't mean it requires a nerf because it doesn't fit your preference. Again, people need a crash course on how to play these two lanes properly. I've seen solstice players be level 4 in 8 minutes and complaining that our support didn't stack for him. I've seen suicide players complain about not winning their lane and keep dying over and over again. You're going to tell me that a short farm TDL with a cleaver is scarier than an ophelia that has pushed and ganked a shit ton of towers? Cool, by the time short farmer got their first item, a parasite would've had their abyssal skull/pk or codex to pressure lanes that are struggling against jungle ganks. Hell, even a suicide magmus would be annoying to deal with if they're camping runes and ganking. Again, most of you people need to learn how to play these roles properly.

Yeah, I agree with all of this. The only expectation of the suicide I have is to not feed. I think OP has just had troubles with a bunch of bad junglers as I have had in the past as well. The thing is though is that the whole game for that team relies on the jungler having an actual impact and as you already mentioned and that is a bad recipe for solo queue lol. Otherwise you just gave free farm to a carry. 

 

The worst ones are the junglers who just keep farming the jungle. They literally take their own carries farm and do nothing with it (e.g. Salomon is a terrible jungler for this reason).

 

I personally think the jungle/sui lineup is just bad most of the time. The only jungler I think is worth having one is probably Tempest since he's a good hero from beginning to end. He can gank very early as his elementals are strongest then and farm very quick (pk +  mana boots at 10 minutes). He also doesn't need much farm (just a PK and Shrunken head is good enough) leaving his carry the jungle the rest of the game to farm.  Then obviously his ultimate is one of the best team fight tools in the game and very hard to counter. 

 

Other junglers like legionnaire/opehlia/parasite don't have all these qualities and can be countered more easily and are generally not as balanced throughout the whole game but I guess that's there tradeoff for having a very strong early-mid game.

Edited by fid1
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Jungle doesn't need nerfs, it needs buffs. Literally every common jungler except Legionnaire right now is <50% win rate, and many of them occupy the bottom slots in the win % list, e.g. Ophelia 42%, Zephyr 40%, Wildsoul 40%, Solstice 44%, Ra 46%.

By common consensus picking a jungler makes the game harder because opposing carry gets free farm (this neglects intrinsic problems with some junglers like Zephyr).  It's not just that they reach their farming items faster, but also that they will have their jungle fully stacked for them. The way you compensate for this is by winning the 3v2 in your safe lane, except none of the common junglers can gank early. Ophelia comes the closest, but even she has a giant opportunity cost associated with ganking because the camps she wants to farm are the ones furthest away from the lane, plus she has to actually get ganking creeps to gank.

What's funky is that you describe the same issues with junglers I described above, i.e. you understand they are underpowered, yet you want to nerf them instead of buff them. Go figure. If what you are actually complaining about is that people pick junglers and do badly with them, I'll point out that I also see people who call mid or carry at the start of the game and do badly. 

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