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BARBED ARMOR is extreme weak compared to Blade mail.


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I know Blade Mail is from another MOBA but some items ans skills got the same numbers. 

So let's check Blade Mail:

Cost: 2125

Status: +6 armor and + attack demage.

Active:

For 4.5 seconds, the damage returned from all sources is increased by 80%.

Passive:

Return 20% demage.

Colodown 25 seconds.

 

Not only the Colodown of Barbed armor is 60% higther The price is also 75 gold more. Also Blade mail return 20% passive wich is a great thing for farming neutrals. 

 

Also Blade mail Give better status.

 

I think Barbed Armor needs a HUGE buff. 

 

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The only thing you said was that it's weak compared to Blademail from Dota2, but never mentioned why HoN's Barbed Armor needs these changes.

 

What's the problem with the item? I see no reason to change it until you make that more clear.

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I think what he's trying to say is that there's a problem with the disparity in the amount of situations you can use Barbed Armor in HoN in relation to DotA2. Now, I personally don't know about DotA2 since I don't play it, but I do believe after the recent changes Barbed Armor has undergone, it has been limited in the amount of situations that it can be used it and in the heroes that it is effective on.

For example - currently the heroes that Barbed Armor is really effective on is Legionnaire, Cthuluphant, Lodestone, Pharaoh, Shellshock - along with some situational use on some hardcarry vs hardcarry scenarios. 

Afterwards there's the aspect that some Heroes counter Barbed Armor by design - Parallax, Oogie, Doctor Repulsor.

Thereafter, there's the fact that during mid-game, carries damage tends to not be high enough while their armor is high enough to not cause a significant spike in Returned Damage.

Along with that, it is of great importance to properly time the usage of Barbed Armor in conjunction with the enemy hero spell/ability timings to maximize the damage returned to them - otherwise facing lackluster damage return values.

And on top of that, it is countered nearly entirely by high physical armor values / magic immunity (SH, Predator W) in conjunction with a Harkon's Blade/Magic DPS dependant users such as Ravenor, spellcasters.

 

What I'm trying to say is - the usage of the item has diminished in the number of the situations that it is viable to be used in. In some situations Barbed Armor will be OP and cause an instant win in a teamfight if properly timed, but in all the other cases it will be a blocked item slot and mostly a dead-weight item.

Now the question if that's ok. If this is intended - that only a select number of heroes will be able to pick this item up, that this item will serve mostly as a Counter item, that this item will need to be timed correctly; then I suppose there is no problem in it.

If however it is intended that more than a select number of Heroes will be able to successfully utilize the item and use it outside of a "Counter" tag without having to wait for a specific moment in time - then perhaps a return to the True Damage returned version might be of value to meet that end.

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I'll briefly outline the history of Barbed Armor's mechanics:

 

1) Original iteration (returns True Damage based on X% of post-mitigation damage received

Pros:

  • It had reverse-scaling & was a better item if you were behind (because you typically have less Armor/Magic Armor if you are behind)

Cons:

  • It had negative synergy with damage mitigation sources (Armor & Magic Armor), because it returned post-mitigated damage
    • As a result, scaled horribly as the game went later & later
  • Counter-intuitive on the heroes you want to pick it up on because of the 2 above points (i.e. heroes that want to soak up damage or can force enemies to hit you, like Legionnaire & Cthulhuphant)

 

2) Second iteration (returns True Damage based on X% of pre-mitigation damage received)

 

Pros:

  • Solves the negative synergy/counter-intuitive scaling of the item with respect to damage mitigation (since it is essentially ignored now)

Cons:

  • You can take very little damage as a tanky hero with high Armor/Magic Armor and deal a large amount of damage to a hero because it is True Damage
    • This is a disproportionate amount of damage returned & does not feel good to play against
  • This literally created a  "buy 5 Barbed Armor = viable and very difficult to counterplay" option. This was UNHEALTHY for the game.

 

3) Current iteration (returns Damage based on X% of pre-mitigation damage received).

Important difference: returned Damage Type matches received Damage Type

Pros:

  • Solves the negative synergy/counter-intuitive scaling of the item (the problem encountered in first iteration)
  • Also solves the disproportionate amount of damage problem from point #2
  • Solves the "5 Barbed Armor" strategy
  • Counterplay is available from the opposing team

Cons:

  • Item is not as good if you are far behind

 

==========

 

So I ask again:

  • Why exactly does Barbed Armor need a buff? Should it even get one?
  • Does Barbed Armor need the passive like from Dota2? Why?
  • If the version of Barbed Armor enables too much counterplay from opponents -- how do you suggest that this be reduced in a healthy way?

 

Edited by ElementUser
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1. Barbed Armor could see a change to enable its viability to a larger variety of heroes.

2. I don't think 20% passive damage return is healthy for the game, as it will be picked up too often.

3. The counterplay variant is something I personally like, and it rewards proper use of game mechanics. The issue is when it's the only aspect of an item to rely on for it to be viable.

 

-Perhaps, add a +3 Armor/Magic Armor on the Barbed Armor to make it more viable as a regular item pickup?

Edited by Lunarios
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If i remember correct, some of heroes's talent trees in DOTA 2 given the free % life steal, or normal give more stat and hp. That's why Blade mail doesn't feel hurt when it active in dota 2

HoN SEA Player

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There are feel heroes with life steal. Also the Colodown of barbed is 40 seconds.
We could have at least 30 seconds Colodown. And 20% passive return. Even so it would be weak.
 
The only heroes that barbed is really effective are legioner and Kane. BEcause if another hero like Kraken or Ra or Moraxus activates barbed we can just don't hit him.
 
Even for legioner that is the hero that most benefits from having barbed. It's better to buy the helm so that you would have healing this way you don't need to go base everytime.
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Barbed Armor is not very effective on Kane. Kane's passive E causes enemies to deal 20% less damage per charge up to 80% less damage, meaning they would only get 16% damage return at full charges instead of the regular 80% from Barbed Armor in comparison to their regular unmodified damage.

Edited by Lunarios
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Maybe to reduce the counter-play would be to cause % increased amount of damage taken to self as a trade-off. This would deter other heroes who aren't tanks from buying it since they would die very quickly. It would also make it less one-sided for tanks who are built to take damage, but also reward them at the same time if they're tanky enough to handle the increased amount of damage. 

 

For a lot of tanks it made having a lot of HP useful since soaking up all that damage could be turned back on heroes. But I do agree it was a bit too over tuned in the amount of damage given back. But, I think it got nerfed a bit too hard since now it's more favored towards being an early game item when armor is low, but almost no hero will every buy it as a first choice item and by later in the game most people have armored up (e.g. Agility heroes through just being agility) making it a less viable choice. 

 

Maybe something like return 50-60% as true damage and 15% more damage taken. 

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One of my issues with barbed in its current state, is that you reflect the damage type you deal. So if you are at lategame, an agi hero hitting you with 100000 armor, will take no damage.

Same with any spellcaster - If he pops a SH, and uses his spells on you, he takes no damage.

 

I know the item is hard to balance, but making it pre-mitigation true damage, is in my opinion the best way to go at it. But, you should also raise the cost to say around 3000-3500 gold, and maybe give it some higher stats as well(not by much though), to balance it out a little, since if it did that at 2k gold, it would be broken.

 

Barbed is a good item, but you can both purge it AND just play around it(not always the easiest, but not impossible), so I don't think it will break the game if you buff it and increase its cost.

 

Edit: Hell, if you think it would be too strong to deal true damage, pre-mitigation, reduce the effect from 80% to say 65-70% :P.

Edited by Seffers
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 "So if you are at lategame, an agi hero hitting you with 100000 armor, will take no damage."

It's only natural for the carry to be strong in late game since in early they are useless.

But I Still think barbed need a huge buff to be balanced.

Maybe a passive 20% reflection  and reduce Colodown to 23 seconds will be good.

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I don't think the passive should be applied. Think it will be a bit too exploited or too frustrating to play against. I could agree on a reduced CD maybe but thats it probably. 

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For the next patch, one of the changes I made is to make the return damage partially ignore the damage reduction given by armor and magic armor. 

 

This should resolve your concerns while also not introducing the problems caused by past iterations of the item. 

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