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2 hours ago, fid1 said:

Yeah well his ultimate heal still sucks. A spell sunder on a spell caster could still probably easily out damage his heal anyways. Also, at like 2200 hp level 16 he can only pump out a 400 hp heal after 7 seconds while a nymphora can pump a 300 hp heal at lvl 7 after 3 seconds.  

I suggest you to try comparing Ichor to Accursed because I think both of them have similarity on overall design.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

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Will be fixed for next patch (this is only happening for Simple Tooltips). I still suggest using Detailed Tooltips as they are mostly the same these days.

omg TB imba kill CD one procast lol need nerf!11!

Honestly, I'm fine with him not being put in a similar defensive role as the other supports. I would love to see his ability back to transfer stuns etc. I always saw him more in an offensive support r

Posted (edited)

It will be too much if you can reduce damage taken while healing your allies large amount of hp. But i suggest reduce the duration but keep the number of HP healing and attack speed. Or make this skill heal less when there is no enemy and reduce the cooldown

Edited by w3_StarBoy

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Artesia SoTM ultimate arcane missile mechanic is broken. It renders her ultimate very annoying to use. Arcane missiles when ultimate is used globally cannot be aimed in any particular direction.

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16 minutes ago, Siata said:

Artesia SoTM ultimate arcane missile mechanic is broken. It renders her ultimate very annoying to use. Arcane missiles when ultimate is used globally cannot be aimed in any particular direction.

It will be fixed in the next patch. 

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I think its a little early to say, but i think the buff on thunderbringer was way too much... Specially the improve in atack range when another mid heroes was reduced. TB has low cooldown Q, improve damage on W, and the weakness (low atack range) was improved to something almost similar to another mid heroes 500-525. 

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I refuse to believe TB "suddenly" got OP, just because his Q is able to be spammed a bit more(still costs a lot of mana), and his W getting 25 extra damage at level 4.

In my opinion, the only reason he suddenly feels strong, is more because of the patch changing the meta, and people realizing that TB+Grimoire is a really strong combo.

Agree/disagree?

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If you build some defensive items against him, some magic armor and/or Shrunken & Null, he becomes pretty useless, but if you ignore him he can be very overwhelming vs squishy suports and full glass cannon carry players. Lets not forget he also got a significant indirect nerf with jade spire now being useless, it was one of the best items for him early to allow him to use skills from a safe distance while giving him some needed early mana regen. So he probably was already strong in low/mid mmr games but weak in high mmr, TB is very squishy and has almost no escape mechanism.

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Posted (edited)

So after some time playing the new patch it is for sure that Thunderbringer is too strong atm but I guess it is obvious since everyone has been talking about it.

 

One of the biggest things that I think is the problem with him from what I've seen is that he's getting way too much GPM compared to before which kinda makes sense with the lower CD on Q for example. There have been some examples where a Thunderbringer is winning in 1v1's against a autoattack carry which didn't happen before either. I haven't played TB myself so I wont get that much input on it.

 

 

Still I am still surprised why we haven't seen any nerfs on heroes like Monkey King, Klanx and Silhouette. MK got an indirect buff with the armor items getting less armor and Silhouette have been too good all the time. Thinking primarily on Silhouette that the illusion is too tanky. 

 

Klanx for example should've been nerfed obviously from the previous patch, and I thought that he was OP already the patch before the previous patch where he got buffed. He and Flint Beastwood have the problem that they can stay at a position farming neutrals where they can never get attacked by the neutrals because they will walk all the way back. Not sure if this is a bug or if it is just "clever use of game mechanics".

Edited by Ladonien
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2 hours ago, Ladonien said:

So after some time playing the new patch it is for sure that Thunderbringer is too strong atm but I guess it is obvious since everyone has been talking about it.

 

One of the biggest things that I think is the problem with him from what I've seen is that he's getting way too much GPM compared to before which kinda makes sense with the lower CD on Q for example. There have been some examples where a Thunderbringer is winning in 1v1's against a autoattack carry which didn't happen before either. I haven't played TB myself so I wont get that much input on it.

 

 

Still I am still surprised why we haven't seen any nerfs on heroes like Monkey King, Klanx and Silhouette. MK got an indirect buff with the armor items getting less armor and Silhouette have been too good all the time. Thinking primarily on Silhouette that the illusion is too tanky. 

 

Klanx for example should've been nerfed obviously from the previous patch, and I thought that he was OP already the patch before the previous patch where he got buffed. He and Flint Beastwood have the problem that they can stay at a position farming neutrals where they can never get attacked by the neutrals because they will walk all the way back. Not sure if this is a bug or if it is just "clever use of game mechanics".

What is your proposed solution for Flint then? Draconis? Etc. 

Many heroes can do the same thing and it's something that HoN actually embraces. In Heroes of the Storm and League of Legends, you can't kite creeps too much or else they regenerate HP rapidly. Personally I dislike that mechanic. 

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1 hour ago, ElementUser said:

What is your proposed solution for Flint then? Draconis? Etc. 

Many heroes can do the same thing and it's something that HoN actually embraces. In Heroes of the Storm and League of Legends, you can't kite creeps too much or else they regenerate HP rapidly. Personally I dislike that mechanic. 

Well, the difference with other heroes like Draconis (good thing it got some nerfs in the recent patches to a place where it seems balanced) is that you need to backpaddle constantly and pay attention so you don't take damage from the creeps. With a hero like Klanx or Flint you have to just walk between two points and it is almost slime to none that the neutral creeps will attack you. When they get infront of you they will walk all the way back and with Klanx you just walk a bit to the side so you get uphill using H.A.W.K so they creeps have to walk all the way around and then they will reset.

 

I didn't mean that kiting in itself is bad I just think there should be some skill ceiling / some stuff to pay attention to when you're doing it considering how rewarding it can be. One example of good neutrals kiting is in this video: https://youtu.be/AZ5hrUiP6S4?t=234 where you have to pay attention constantly to where your character is and that you think about the weapon swing timer for each hit to make use of it while walking backwards.

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Posted (edited)

So what solution do you have for the 2 outliers? I cannot think of much for flint. Klanx can at least be watered down with some mechanical changes if you attack during W. 

 

I don't think flint is as big of a deal as you think it is. 

Edited by ElementUser
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1 hour ago, ElementUser said:

So what solution do you have for the 2 outliers? I cannot think of much for flint. Klanx can at least be watered down with some mechanical changes if you attack during W. 

 

I don't think flint is as big of a deal as you think it is. 

Just from on top of my head it would be just to increase the aggro range for the neutral creeps but I think it could affect other things but thats what i came to think about. I just mentioned it as I were asking if it was unintended or "clever use of game mechanics". as most exploits that I've seen in MOBAs generally have been patched out so 

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Posted (edited)

Honestly I suddenly feel like Ichor is super tanky at the moment. Check this match out: 161624174

Throughout the game, my hag is at least 2 levels above ichor, and after spending all my spells in his face it has never exceeded 1/3 of his hp.

Many instances of 2-3 heroes gank were never able to kill Ichor even if he is walking alone.

At 33:10, 3 heroes (hag + bs + salforis) focused ichor and managed to bring his hp down from 75% to 50%, before their combat attempt is extinguished after 10 seconds. We casted a total of 3 spells on hag (full combo), 2 spells on bs (full combo), 3 spells on salforis (full combo). Ichor was level 14 and 230 gpm, the 3 heroes who engaged are level 16-19 and both core heroes are above 400 gpm.

It actually felt like punching a rock with a pointy finger. I think no support should be allowed to be that tanky though?

What's also funny is that Ichor can use his second spell to transfer Salforis ultimate to his enemies. Is the spell designed as such? I thought that ultimate spells are made so that it is not easily countered without much cost?

To put thing into perspective:

spacer.png

Edited by Acnowlogia
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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, ElementUser said:

What is your proposed solution for Flint then? Draconis? Etc. 

Many heroes can do the same thing and it's something that HoN actually embraces. In Heroes of the Storm and League of Legends, you can't kite creeps too much or else they regenerate HP rapidly. Personally I dislike that mechanic. 

I suggest a potential solution to TB:

1. Increase his early-level Q cooldown. This spell low cooldown allows him to outbox his enemy while farming efficiently at the same time. Combined with the vision issue, he is very difficult to counter in mostly any 1v1 situation as he can sit safely inside tower range or away from creep aggro range. In higher rating games, aggro-ing creep is one of the most important skill to excel at mid lane. Without this possibility, there are a very few number of niche heroes that can farm in the lane against TB.

2. Give away his vision when he cast the spell (at least on Q, similar to the idea of his Q being treated as an auto attack). This vision will force TB to take more risk when spamming the spell. Currently he can cast spell from very far away, without vision, so it is super difficult to counter him especially at mid lane. Ward doesn't work effectively because he would spam W constantly as well.

 

TB with grimoire is very strong indeed, but it should be a justified incentive to promote the choice of picking the hero. Nevertheless, the hero is too strong early game in every aspect (survivability, farming, ganking, lane control, harrassing) as well, which makes the hero way too imbalanced.

 

==========

P/S: The only time I was able to beat Znooki's TB at mid is with Deadwood, and a very well-timed early game root (at level 2) + chasing to box him out of the lane for enough time for me to gain decent snowball-level of experience + gold advantage. I lost to his TB with any other heroes and they were all one-sided, I got completely boxed out of lane. Statistically, I have never had any issue beating Znooki mid or at least sustaining the lane against him before, regardless of the hero I play.

If a new hero change suddenly makes a lesser player outperform you continuously, there is a high possibility that the hero is imbalanced.

Edited by Acnowlogia
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Acnowlogia said:

Honestly I suddenly feel like Ichor is super tanky at the moment. Check this match out: 161624174

Throughout the game, my hag is at least 2 levels above ichor, and after spending all my spells in his face it has never exceeded 1/3 of his hp.

Many instances of 2-3 heroes gank were never able to kill Ichor even if he is walking alone.

At 33:10, 3 heroes (hag + bs + salforis) focused ichor and managed to bring his hp down from 75% to 50%, before their combat attempt is extinguished after 10 seconds. We casted a total of 3 spells on hag (full combo), 2 spells on bs (full combo), 3 spells on salforis (full combo). Ichor was level 14 and 230 gpm, the 3 heroes who engaged are level 16-19 and both core heroes are above 400 gpm.

It actually felt like punching a rock with a pointy finger. I think no support should be allowed to be that tanky though?

What's also funny is that Ichor can use his second spell to transfer Salforis ultimate to his enemies. Is the spell designed as such? I thought that ultimate spells are made so that it is not easily countered without much cost?

To put thing into perspective:

spacer.png

Hang on, weren't there like 2 people in this thread who were complaining that Ichor's R doesn't heal a lot? And one of them mentioned that it heals for barely more than Nymphora's Q? Hmm.........

@fid1  @GiveUpBra

 

====

 

A bit more on-topic:

Ichor was actually slightly tankier in the past from E alone (60% max Damage Reduction compared to 50% -- contrary to what the tooltips said in the past, the max was actually 60%), he just got more sustained healing that also applies to himself, and even moreso if he dives into a group of enemies.

I personally think the healing numbers are fine on R. Perhaps the E Damage reduction will be adjusted slightly, however he's also gotten a lot more exposure this patch as well. Time will tell.

For Lord Salforis' R: maybe.

 

This statement is wrong though:

 

Quote

I thought that ultimate spells are made so that it is not easily countered without much cost?

You can go ahead and try to say that to any channeling ultimate, or any ultimate that applies a debuff. It simply doesn't apply to those abilities because those are "easily countered" with a stun/silence (for channels) or a purge (for debuffs).

 

The bottom line is that I'm generally happy we finally get a consistently tanky support hero. We really need one of those because traditional supports simply die too fast. Adjustments may come if needed.

Edited by ElementUser
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Acnowlogia said:

I suggest a potential solution to TB:

1. Increase his early-level Q cooldown. This spell low cooldown allows him to outbox his enemy while farming efficiently at the same time. Combined with the vision issue, he is very difficult to counter in mostly any 1v1 situation as he can sit safely inside tower range or away from creep aggro range. In higher rating games, aggro-ing creep is one of the most important skill to excel at mid lane. Without this possibility, there are a very few number of niche heroes that can farm in the lane against TB.

2. Give away his vision when he cast the spell (at least on Q, similar to the idea of his Q being treated as an auto attack). This vision will force TB to take more risk when spamming the spell. Currently he can cast spell from very far away, without vision, so it is super difficult to counter him especially at mid lane. Ward doesn't work effectively because he would spam W constantly as well.

 

TB with grimoire is very strong indeed, but it should be a justified incentive to promote the choice of picking the hero. Nevertheless, the hero is too strong early game in every aspect (survivability, farming, ganking, lane control, harrassing) as well, which makes the hero way too imbalanced.

 

==========

P/S: The only time I was able to beat Znooki's TB at mid is with Deadwood, and a very well-timed early game root (at level 2) + chasing to box him out of the lane for enough time for me to gain decent snowball-level of experience + gold advantage. I lost to his TB with any other heroes and they were all one-sided, I got completely boxed out of lane. Statistically, I have never had any issue beating Znooki mid or at least sustaining the lane against him before, regardless of the hero I play.

If a new hero change suddenly makes a lesser player outperform you continuously, there is a high possibility that the hero is imbalanced.

He's always been able to do what he's been doing. Q cooldown barely means anything if he doesn't have the mana to cast it.

What the patch shows is that +25 damage on W does a lot more than what most of you guys think it does. On paper it doesn't seem like much, in-game it means a lot for early game spells.

Also, Thunderbringer is not what you said here:

Quote

hero is too strong early game in every aspect (survivability, farming, ganking, lane control, harrassing)

Can still be easily ganked, farming is barely changed (you need to have mana before you can "farm fast" with Q's reduced cooldowns).

Edited by ElementUser
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First time I heard TB survivability and ganking is OP. 

His early lane is still far weaker when his Q chain 5 times and if his auto attack range is a problem than we should nerf ellonia and Bombardier attack range more

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Tried some Thunderbringer the last days and it seems like ElementUser is right.. usually takes like 3 w's to get someone down. Usually killed people mid before lvl 6 with just spamming W when I can. Maybe iy vcould be a skill bracket thing aswell and could've prevented that from happening. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ElementUser said:

Hang on, weren't there like 2 people in this thread who were complaining that Ichor's R doesn't heal a lot? And one of them mentioned that it heals for barely more than Nymphora's Q? Hmm.........

@fid1  @GiveUpBra

 

====

 

A bit more on-topic:

Ichor was actually slightly tankier in the past from E alone (60% max Damage Reduction compared to 50% -- contrary to what the tooltips said in the past, the max was actually 60%), he just got more sustained healing that also applies to himself, and even moreso if he dives into a group of enemies.

I personally think the healing numbers are fine on R. Perhaps the E Damage reduction will be adjusted slightly, however he's also gotten a lot more exposure this patch as well. Time will tell.

For Lord Salforis' R: maybe.

 

This statement is wrong though:

 

You can go ahead and try to say that to any channeling ultimate, or any ultimate that applies a debuff. It simply doesn't apply to those abilities because those are "easily countered" with a stun/silence (for channels) or a purge (for debuffs).

 

The bottom line is that I'm generally happy we finally get a consistently tanky support hero. We really need one of those because traditional supports simply die too fast. Adjustments may come if needed.

Would be nice if you have the time to check the replay I provided.

Tanky support is a good idea overall, but if the tanky support is even tankier than most tank heroes in general, without needing any farm (i.e. with just basic starting items), that would be extra tedious for the opponent team to deal with. Take my game for example, we were leading quite hard the first half of the game, then suddenly we lost every teamfights and got completely snowballed the moment Ichor appeared.

I let the adjustment to your own decision as I do not understand the hero very well. From a few matchups I only felt that his R is ok, but his W is too strong a debuff.

 

1 hour ago, ElementUser said:

He's always been able to do what he's been doing. Q cooldown barely means anything if he doesn't have the mana to cast it.

What the patch shows is that +25 damage on W does a lot more than what most of you guys think it does. On paper it doesn't seem like much, in-game it means a lot for early game spells.

Also, Thunderbringer is not what you said here:

Can still be easily ganked, farming is barely changed (you need to have mana before you can "farm fast" with Q's reduced cooldowns).

Mana for TB is not a big problem early game as he can sustain enough mana for enough damage to farm and outharrass his opponent (e.g. by buying mana potions and chalice; box out his opponent to pressure for runes). Mid- and late- game, it is not even a problem anymore.

It is true that TB can be as easily ganked as any other intelligence heroes. But my argument was mainly on the fact that he excels in 1v1 situation. In higher bracket games, it is not always easy to gank someone without accepting a risk of a trade-off like leaving your lane insecured. Also, if both sides are equally frequently ganked, then on average, TB would still come out on top because he can outperform his opponent.

There are of course specific strategies to keep TB in check, at the expense of putting more resources. Must we always resort to this strategy to deal with the hero?

Btw, I just found this statistics, 4th most picked hero with 62% winrate

spacer.png

 

Edited by Acnowlogia
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Posted (edited)

I just watched the replay now.

A few things you have to keep in mind is that Ichor built tanky, Sac Stone & that his ultimate is intended to heal more the more enemy heroes are around. So if you're ganking him with 3+ heroes he's going to get a lot more healing.

The numbers may be a little overtuned, but conceptually he's doing what he should.

Also, his team had a Rhapsody, so he's getting even more healing.

Salforis aside (because of the behaviour of Ichor's W on Salforis' R), nobody on your team has Dreamcatcher to counter the healing. I may consider disabling the transfer of those particular states as well -- thing is if Ichor transfers Dreamcatcher to an opponent, he's losing damage reduction. It seems that the damage reduction isn't a huge contributor as he only had 2 debuffs on him in most teamfights/skirmishes at most (many times it was 0).

Edited by ElementUser
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15 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

I just watched the replay now.

A few things you have to keep in mind is that Ichor built tanky, Sac Stone & that his ultimate is intended to heal more the more enemy heroes are around. So if you're ganking him with 3+ heroes he's going to get a lot more healing.

The numbers may be a little overtuned, but conceptually he's doing what he should.

Also, his team had a Rhapsody, so he's getting even more healing.

Salforis aside (because of the behaviour of Ichor's W on Salforis' R), nobody on your team has Dreamcatcher to counter the healing. I may consider disabling the transfer of those particular states as well -- thing is if Ichor transfers Dreamcatcher to an opponent, he's losing damage reduction. It seems that the damage reduction isn't a huge contributor as he only had 2 debuffs on him in most teamfights/skirmishes at most (many times it was 0).

I don't really know how the hero work as I never tried it. But if Ichor can counter Salf ulti (which hero is designed as a counter-tanker/counter-healer), then I don't really get how dreamcatcher is going to work against him if he can also transfer all of those debuff to someone else anyway?

Even if I agree to all of your points, the fact that a single support with moderately-low experience and gold intake can sustain considerably against 3 heroes (incl. 2 cores) should be considered. In my experience, I have never seen any tanker with those early items that can single-handedly tank every spell of 3 heroes for 10 seconds and only lose 25% of his hp. Most of the toughest tankers (balphagore, gladiator, accursed, armadon, electrician, amunra, salomon) would have died or at least at the death door.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Acnowlogia said:

I don't really know how the hero work as I never tried it. But if Ichor can counter Salf ulti (which hero is designed as a counter-tanker/counter-healer), then I don't really get how dreamcatcher is going to work against him if he can also transfer all of those debuff to someone else anyway?

Even if I agree to all of your points, the fact that a single support with moderately-low experience and gold intake can sustain considerably against 3 heroes (incl. 2 cores) should be considered. In my experience, I have never seen any tanker with those early items that can single-handedly tank every spell of 3 heroes for 10 seconds and only lose 25% of his hp. Most of the toughest tankers (balphagore, gladiator, accursed, armadon, electrician, amunra, salomon) would have died or at least at the death door.

Let's assume you agree with all my points. Let's also assume that Salf R & Dreamcatcher states were made non-transferrable. I have a few questions:

- Is the R duration of 7 seconds "right"? Burst in HoN is basically a blink of an eye, or 3 seconds-ish (depending on the heroes involved). The ability is meant to be a sustained heal, which means less protection against burst.

Other than that, I know what numbers to adjust. Thanks.

Edited by ElementUser
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2 hours ago, ElementUser said:

Let's assume you agree with all my points. Let's also assume that Salf R & Dreamcatcher states were made non-transferrable. I have a few questions:

- Is the R duration of 7 seconds "right"? Burst in HoN is basically a blink of an eye, or 3 seconds-ish (depending on the heroes involved). The ability is meant to be a sustained heal, which means less protection against burst.

Other than that, I know what numbers to adjust. Thanks.

First of all, sorry if I understood your question wrong.

I think that the 'tankiness' of Ichor came from both of his E and R spells combined. E counter burst spells at least 20% at max lvl (10% basic + 10% from most burst spells). If opponents follow the traditional combo of the hero (e.g. hag/pyro/flint/ellonia etc... usually cast ulti last) then this E counter at least 30% of the burst damage. R counter sustained damage by giving him amazing health regen. 

On top of that, his W transfers all debuffs to his opponent (and can't be purged?) so it is twice as strong as purge spells like Jera's W.

So your question is whether the 7 seconds Ichor R is a good. Personally, from your explanation, I think 7 seconds R sounds good for the hero to sustain himself during the combat. I think it should not be less for the fact that most combat peaks last at least that long.

 I think the main problem with Ichor is his 'tankiness' as a combination his damage reduction + healing + transferring debuffs is too high. If there is a possibility to break the synergy of those 3 effects in an easier way then it should be good. Options such as providing a counter item (sandscepter/dreamcatcher) and/or rescale his synergy potential at each phase are possible imo.

I also have another idea. Perhaps it would be better to make the trade-off between using his W and E more clear? Right now, given that most heroes in the game have spells with debuffs, it doesn't really matter much for Ichor to use W, knowing that his E will build up damage reduction from other spells anyway. He is incentivized to debuff his enemy in place of defending himself. Perhaps you could adjust the damage reduction to be progressive in terms of the number of debuffs? e.g. additional +6/9/12/15% for 1/2/3/4 debuffs.

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Posted (edited)

The tradeoff for E is fine. If you transfer debuffs to enemies, you're losing the reduction from E.

What I'll likely do next patch (whenever that is) is just remove the base damage reduction from E (among a few other minor tweaks).

Edited by ElementUser
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