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4.9.3 - Pre-patch Discussion


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Patch looks great!

Biggest win for me is Gauntlet hook cd (20 seconds was crazy when dev/prisoner were 14) and Dreamcatcher (2.6k item) gaining charges passively.

Biggest concerns would be Thunderbringer and DR. TB hero isn't played tons but if you buy a new grimoire use the active and resto you can kill supports in well some games, not fun. Doctor repulsor getting a move speed debuff by 10 and attack range nerf by 50 also would give me concern he's never going to win a contested lane given he's weak before level 6 to begin with.

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Doctor Repulsor is ridiculous in concept. He's not really supposed to win a lane.

The choices for his design is add a range + reasonable cooldown on his ultimate so that he can be dealt with (at the cost of removing most of his identity as a hero), or nerf other aspects of him but keep that identity.

There is no other real option & doing anything in-between seems futile.

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Posted (edited)

"Devourer
- Starting Armor increased from 2 to 2.2.

Guttling Hook
- Physical Damage increased from 90/180/270/360 to 135/210/285/360.
- Cooldown changed from 14 seconds to 15/14/13/12 seconds.
- Mana Cost reduced from 110/120/130/140 to 100/110/120/130.

Cadaver Armor
- Magic Armor increased from 1/2/3/4 to 2/3/4/5.

+ Devourer had few reasons to be picked over the other hook heroes (Gauntlet, Prisoner), so his early game laning and roaming power received a large power spike."

Not much of a fan of devo buff.... isnt he already still the highest picked hooking hero?


Gravekeeper
- Attack Range reduced from 600 to 575.
So gravekeeper will preform better in genreal with his defiling touch and spells, will see how much he's played post patch.
- Base Movement Speed increased from 300 to 310.

- Attack Range reduced from 600 to 575.

Empath

As One

Mana regen bonus sounds sweet!

Riptide

- only being invis on the mini map when he uses perfect storm is a nice change!

Brutalizer buff also sounds wonderful!

Golden Apple
- No longer passively grants Mana Regeneration.
- Instead, now passively grants +2 Attack Damage.    <-- Does that stack?

cheaper puzzlebox will defenitly make it getting picked up more often, awesome!

Kane

Face Off
- Staff of the Master effect changes (to pre-existing):
* Kane now also gains 50% Damage Reduction against damage sources other than the target.
* Charges for the bonus Attack Damage effect are now stored retroactively.
* However, the Attack Damage gained this way has been reduced from 8/12/16 to 4/6/8 per charge.
* No longer grants an opponent bonus Attack Damage if they win the Face Off.

Getting a huge buff due to the now stored bonus atk damage makes staff pickup way better than it used to!
Cant wait to see more kane staff pickups 😄

Edited by dragoniser
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Posted (edited)
Just now, dragoniser said:

"Devourer
- Starting Armor increased from 2 to 2.2.

Guttling Hook
- Physical Damage increased from 90/180/270/360 to 135/210/285/360.
- Cooldown changed from 14 seconds to 15/14/13/12 seconds.
- Mana Cost reduced from 110/120/130/140 to 100/110/120/130.

Cadaver Armor
- Magic Armor increased from 1/2/3/4 to 2/3/4/5.

+ Devourer had few reasons to be picked over the other hook heroes (Gauntlet, Prisoner), so his early game laning and roaming power received a large power spike."

Not much of a fan of devo buff.... isnt he already still the highest picked hooking hero?

He doesn't do much in higher level games. Even if he's doing well, there are other gankers that snowball harder & better.

 

Devourer has trouble keeping that momentum rolling past mid game.

Edited by ElementUser
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With the ranged heroes nerf I predict some support heroes will become too well-rounded for middle position, including Artesia and Skrap. Meanwhile some other middle will be over-nerfed because they are already like paper early game and rely on range for survivability, for example Pyro and Hag. Imagine a Nitro at mid, Pyro or Hag would be very difficult to contest mid now because of inferior attack range, hp, potential damage output and farming capacity early game.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Acnowlogia said:

With the ranged heroes nerf I predict some support heroes will become too well-rounded for middle position, including Artesia and Skrap. Meanwhile some other middle will be over-nerfed because they are already like paper early game and rely on range for survivability, for example Pyro and Hag. Imagine a Nitro at mid, Pyro or Hag would be very difficult to contest mid now because of inferior attack range, hp, potential damage output and farming capacity early game.

That's great, certain heroes will be less flexible in terms of viability in a lane (relative to the "new" heroes viable in said lanes) as a substitute & the tradeoffs are more evident as the game progresses with more adjustments to this dynamic. This will result in more variety and diversity in hero picks.

 

Obviously, heroes themselves will be adjusted as time progresses.

Edited by ElementUser
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Posted (edited)
  • BLUE: Deals 70/90/110/130 Magic Damage, chaining to nearby enemies.
  • RED: Deals 30/40/50/60 Magic Damage with another 55/70/85/100 Magic Damage and a 10/15/20/25% Tapering Movespeed Slow over 3 seconds in the AOE
  • GREEN: Same as RED, but bounces to two additional nearby enemies

From wiki.

With SoTM upgrate. King Klout deal less damage to a single target but will always apply a DOT and slow on enemy?

If i spamming my Q. The DOT is not worth for the initial damage from Blue. Sometimes i only need RED for the slow

as a KK player, i'm not sure if SOTM is a worth upgrade or a nerf. 

 

Edited by w3wstarboy
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Alchemist's Bones
- Gold Bounty from killing a creep with its active effect increased from 165 Gold to 190 Gold.
- Experience Bounty multiplier from killing a creep with its active effect increased from 1.75x to 2x.

It seems like a pretty significant boost to an Alchemist Bones. Probably each ranged carry should buy it now, especially some greedy mid heroes that will crazy exp-scale.

New Item: Adeve's Cloak

Why not making a Dota 2 Aeon Disk alternative instead of this one? Or at least apply a strong dispell effect instead of 15/40% stun reduction.

Empath

Why is it still not allowed to use consumables on self when As One is active? For example, using Mana Potion on self during it's duration could be very profitable and shouldn't make it overpowered.

 

Puzzlebox
= 2500 Gold Total

So, with these changes, Parasite could build Pazzlebox just farming jungle at 6:35 (with only Blood Chalice), maybe at 6:00 with a successful gank or 2 Merrick's runes. Imagine having Parasite lvl 8 with Pazzlebox at min 6. Seems to be a little broken.

Overall, a good patch, I'm exciting to try it with all the balance changes!

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Sorry for the off-topic, but does GM/FrostBurn staff have access to Items usage (same as for the hero usage)? It would be nice to have a graph with comparison on item's usage from patch to patch to see how the changes affects it.

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Sad about the large Emerald Warden Range nerf. She was my new favorite hero to play support with.

Emerald Warden got a 75 range nerf and puppet only got a 25 nerf. Isn't puppet played way more in competitive?

Thanks for keeping this game great!

(A sad EW player)

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Puppet Master has been on the weak side after his burst got nerfed (he should not be a carry hero that also has access to a one-shot burst tool).

Emerald Warden doesn't really have any business having 625 range even before this patch, I have no idea why the other designers put so much range on him for no reason. Also, Emerald Warden is a "he".

However, we'll see how Emerald Warden performs & we can re-assess the hero's numbers overall in a future patch if he needs some adjustments.

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6 hours ago, w3wstarboy said:
  • BLUE: Deals 70/90/110/130 Magic Damage, chaining to nearby enemies.
  • RED: Deals 30/40/50/60 Magic Damage with another 55/70/85/100 Magic Damage and a 10/15/20/25% Tapering Movespeed Slow over 3 seconds in the AOE
  • GREEN: Same as RED, but bounces to two additional nearby enemies

From wiki.

With SoTM upgrate. King Klout deal less damage to a single target but will always apply a DOT and slow on enemy?

If i spamming my Q. The DOT is not worth for the initial damage from Blue. Sometimes i only need RED for the slow

as a KK player, i'm not sure if SOTM is a worth upgrade or a nerf. 

 

I think the quick solution of this is to make Staff boost also stacks the DoT.

Though personally I think the current Red effect should be on Blue and the current Green effect should be on Red, so it leaves the Green effect with extra base damage and slow.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

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Updated patch notes:

 

Quote

King Klout

Goblin Toss
- Red minion: base Magic Damage increased from 30/40/50/60 to 70/90/110/130 (same as Blue minion), Magic Damage over time reduced from 55/70/85/100 to 15/20/25/30.
* Total damage taken over time remains unchanged.
* Green's minion also inherits Red minion's effects.

+ This adjustment was made to accommodate King Klout's new Staff of the Master effect with Goblin Toss.

_______________________________________________

Also set Emerald Warden's Attack Range to 600 (instead of the originally intended 550).

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With the extra bans its gonna be almost impossible picking the jungle heroes, i already see Legio, Salo and Sols banned most games, also gonna miss jade spire, was one of the most fun items to build.

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Posted (edited)

Reason why EM have 625 attack range before was to avoid being attacked from the ranged enemy trapped inside his E

And a new item Faux Bow.

 - Now most of the ranged carry hero have attack round 500-575, the 700 cast range seem look too close. It should be ~800. With this 700 cast range. Most likely the hero will purchase it will be only those hero who have below 500 attack range, not the carry.

 - Allow it to cast on tower (with ~65% less damage), this item is useless in close combat. Allow it to cast on tower make it more reason to buy it. For the exchange, increased the cool down because it is unnecessary for it to have fast cool down.

Edited by w3wstarboy
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There is not much love for valk this patch. The attack range nerf and ghostmarchers nerf should make him completely unviable now for competitive play (which he already was before)

I think Thunderbringers issue in the laning phase is his chain lightning, which hardly can hit the enemy as it only jumps 2 times. It's the only way for him to get lasthits yet it can't dmg the enemy.

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So reading through the patch notes...

 

The good:

The range nerf on most heroes. Even if it might not be perfect it is what you're saying, it is all about readjusting for the future but the idea behind it is great. I've thought for many years ago about the range inflation many heroes had but people were laughing at me when I mentioned it. Because there was so many supports that I never played at all because their range was not 600.

 

The movespeed nerf is just something that just had to happen, because it feels like the average MS goes up when cycling through patches and it feels like chasers will actually be chasers. Similiar with the range I think that time will tell if there will be some readjustments.

 

The balance changes for heroes in general are pretty good, I really liked the Shadowblade change a lot with the 2.5 gain (thought I would never be able to get that through hehe).

 

The Engineer change was pretty good aswell. The problem with double-Q it was that if you have Marchers the keg wont hit you so it was a bit losing its point with using it as an escape I think.

 

The bad: 

I think Jade Spire will be a dead item now after the huge nerf it is getting. I still think it was pretty balanced because there wasn't that many heroes that got the fullest potential out of it. Plus I don't think I have seen anyone complaing about it in higher bracket either.

 

The Tremble nerf is also a bit heavy (if it is only supposed to remove trees in the beginning of the game). What you did when you play this hero is that you use the global mounds to gank the lanes so now I guess if you go mid with tremble either you just stay longer farming and reducing the gank potential. Think it should be global after level 2 since apparently this nerf was only for the beginning of the game.

 

Doctor Repulsor Nerf. Just thinking he is not over performing in general atm so I wonder why he got nerfed to heavy. 

 

Wishlist that didn't make it:

 

Nerf for Klanx. Gets picked too many times in the high bracket and stomps easily in a lot of games. Can easily be seen if you check out the matches on the youtube channel "HoN Killer". It looks a bit too good that you can kill ancients and neutral camps with the creeps not being able to ever attack you (similiar with Flint Beastwood but I guess the aggro range for the Ancients could be a bit adjusted).

 

 

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I'm still gonna advocate for apex's W resetting his attack timer (like salforis W), hero just feels clunky without it since you don't really build atk speed on him 😞

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18 hours ago, ElementUser said:

That's great, certain heroes will be less flexible in terms of viability in a lane (relative to the "new" heroes viable in said lanes) as a substitute & the tradeoffs are more evident as the game progresses with more adjustments to this dynamic. This will result in more variety and diversity in hero picks.

 

Obviously, heroes themselves will be adjusted as time progresses.

What I mean is some heroes will obviously be used more than before at the expense of other heroes falling off the meta. Some heroes that are already strong will become stronger and some heroes that are niche will become weaker within that niche. So some tradeoffs are actually biasing instead of counterbalancing.

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1 hour ago, LevelTxen said:

There is not much love for valk this patch. The attack range nerf and ghostmarchers nerf should make him completely unviable now for competitive play (which he already was before)

I think Thunderbringers issue in the laning phase is his chain lightning, which hardly can hit the enemy as it only jumps 2 times. It's the only way for him to get lasthits yet it can't dmg the enemy.

Probably valk is nerfed only because I made it look broken

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We have seen more changes in the last 1.5 years than we had in the previous 10. I understand the whole 'lets make people play different things so they dont get bored and uninstall the game' thing when in fact its frustrating having to deal with huge changes every patch that consequently force what is good and what is not anymore lol.Recent examples include puppet master ,shadowblade ,grimoire ,dawnbringer and now all ranged heroes? (?!) I guess the next patch will turn Heroes of Newerth into League of Legends at this rate.Going abit further back we seen Adrenaline turn into an abomination of a hero for no apparent reason (ye ye we know it was frustrating to play against ,u can literally justify any change like this) .Nitro was a unique design ,delicate hero that took abit of skill to play and tbh nobody really played,there were tons of ways to nerf its admitable high power but instead it got reworked into something even my grandma can play effectively...Drunken master also ruined...Still trying to find who complained about arachna having true strike was way too op ,examples are endless.Anyway my point is that i bet it feels good doing whatever u want to HoN but im sorry to say that it was way better gameplay-wise around 2018-2019 before all these changes started to happen and it should have been on maintenance state like it was originally planned.Finally, about competitive play ,hero changes little do matter ,it will always be the better team (player wise) that wins (as long as they dont grief too much ofc) .Also in 'high tmm' what is frustrating is having to play unbalanced matches against 4-5 man ques that basically sign up for free wins often as a team thats in the most part casual lower rated players ,then again the heroes almost dont matter 🙂

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, die`x3 said:

We have seen more changes in the last 1.5 years than we had in the previous 10. I understand the whole 'lets make people play different things so they dont get bored and uninstall the game' thing when in fact its frustrating having to deal with huge changes every patch that consequently force what is good and what is not anymore lol.Recent examples include puppet master ,shadowblade ,grimoire ,dawnbringer and now all ranged heroes? (?!) I guess the next patch will turn Heroes of Newerth into League of Legends at this rate.Going abit further back we seen Adrenaline turn into an abomination of a hero for no apparent reason (ye ye we know it was frustrating to play against ,u can literally justify any change like this) .Nitro was a unique design ,delicate hero that took abit of skill to play and tbh nobody really played,there were tons of ways to nerf its admitable high power but instead it got reworked into something even my grandma can play effectively...Drunken master also ruined...Still trying to find who complained about arachna having true strike was way too op ,examples are endless.Anyway my point is that i bet it feels good doing whatever u want to HoN but im sorry to say that it was way better gameplay-wise around 2018-2019 before all these changes started to happen and it should have been on maintenance state like it was originally planned.Finally, about competitive play ,hero changes little do matter ,it will always be the better team (player wise) that wins (as long as they dont grief too much ofc) .Also in 'high tmm' what is frustrating is having to play unbalanced matches against 4-5 man ques that basically sign up for free wins often as a team thats in the most part casual lower rated players ,then again the heroes almost dont matter 🙂

That's a pessimistic point of view, but to each their own. 

It seems like some players really like having things that are overpowered cause it's fun, which is fine from the player's point of view. In these games, you have to consider one person's fun vs the fun of the other 9 players in the game. It's not a pure PvE game where we can just buff heroes however we want.

It also seems like you're too attached to the past, and while that is understandable, some heroes did need to be changed to help the game in the long run. 

One thing I will ask you not to do is to write some points, then jump to some unfounded conclusion that has no bearing to the discussion. For example, your write that the game will become League of Legends -- that won't happen and you know it, yet you said it anyway. 

Edited by ElementUser
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5 hours ago, w3wstarboy said:

Reason why EM have 625 attack range before was to avoid being attacked from the ranged enemy trapped inside his E

And a new item Faux Bow.

 - Now most of the ranged carry hero have attack round 500-575, the 700 cast range seem look too close. It should be ~800. With this 700 cast range. Most likely the hero will purchase it will be only those hero who have below 500 attack range, not the carry.

 - Allow it to cast on tower (with ~65% less damage), this item is useless in close combat. Allow it to cast on tower make it more reason to buy it. For the exchange, increased the cool down because it is unnecessary for it to have fast cool down.

I could have just made EW's E disarm if that was the case, much simpler solution. Most people are reaching for the design intention of 625 range, and while this could be a reason, there are better ways of addressing it. You won't always attack at max range... 

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