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Too controversial. Too ambiguous. I am often accused for off-meta strategies, trolling, griefing, and everything your mind can think of. One of my strategies was a 5-wave Night Hound Sui sta

I dont think the playerbase is big enough to split it more, doing what you sugest would make that new players would never find a game, on top of that we have smurfs that play on low mmr accounts cuz t

Could make it 50 midwars or so before joining normal TMM... about time we make midwars have an use 😂😂😂

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lunarios said:

Too controversial. Too ambiguous.

I am often accused for off-meta strategies, trolling, griefing, and everything your mind can think of.

One of my strategies was a 5-wave Night Hound Sui stack into self-t3 push into denial of enemy carry farm space.

Sometimes you need to push the carry lane, sometimes you want to.

Sometimes other players refuse to listen so you type a lot.

Sometimes entering the same scenario 15 times with the hope to win, only ending up with 15 deaths can be overly optimistic.

Sometimes the 1 player knows better than the other 4 players in the team of what should be done.

What you say is one sided to your train of thought and excludes opinions out of your scope of view.

The game is more than winning, it's about having fun while winning.

If you don't have fun while winning, your time is not well spent.

Your suggestions limit creativity and enforce a specific line of action - something I'm against.

If everyone follow the current meta, the meta will never change, and evolution shall cease.

 

You are free to explore your unconventional metas as much as you wish if you have friends that support you in your decisions. Doing so in a solo que where people expect familiar actions they can work with will always impact the rest of the team negatively. They are not expecting bizarre strategies nor can they benefit from this experience just because a one-off miracle worker succeeded at something when most of the time it won't be the time nor place to attempt any such unusual strategy at everyone else's expense.

Sure, the examples I've given may not be perfect, but that doesn't change that an experienced GM team could introduce stricter rules that improve overall satisfaction of the community. And that's why League has such a system. If there are, statistically, situations where player behavior could be improved with common sense thinking from the side of the moderation, they should be moderated. That's what a competent company would do. Unfortunately that's not where this game is at for fairly clear reasons.

Making an argument that the foremost priority of a MOBA should be "fun" which in itself is an utterly subjective term is just not the way to go. "Fun" is in fact so broad in scope it even involves griefing. Because griefing is what griefers perceive as fun. Fun to a non-malicious player is achievement of success, cooperation, and communication that leads to positive outcomes. And all that can be enabled with adequate moderation, which we don't have.

Edited by twoscoopsREE
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, twoscoopsREE said:

You are free to explore your unconventional metas as much as you wish if you have friends that support you in your decisions. Doing so in a solo que where people expect familiar actions they can work with will always impact the rest of the team negatively. They are not expecting bizarre strategies nor can they benefit from this experience just because a one-off miracle worker succeeded at something when most of the time it won't be the time nor place to attempt any such unusual strategy at everyone else's expense.

Sure, the examples I've given may not be perfect, but that doesn't change that an experienced GM team could introduce stricter rules that improve overall satisfaction of the community. And that's why League has such a system. If there are, statistically, situations where player behavior could be improved with common sense thinking from the side of the moderation, they should be moderated. That's what a competent company would do. Unfortunately that's not where this game is at for fairly clear reasons.

Making an argument that the foremost priority of a MOBA should be "fun" which in itself is an utterly subjective term is just not the way to go. "Fun" is in fact so broad in scope it even involves griefing. Because griefing is what griefers perceive as fun. Fun to a non-malicious player is achievement of success, cooperation, and communication that leads to positive outcomes. And all that can be enabled with adequate moderation, which we don't have.

I understand where you are coming from, because when I am on the other side of the coin it does not feel nice at all when somebody is attempting unconventional strategies and failing, or simply me lacking the knowledge of how to adapt to it. Calling it a one-off miracle work is far from the truth however, since when you Master such strategies and gain the knowledge of when and how to use them, it becomes fairly consistent.

That being said, I don't think I have good decision making skills. I think I have quite bad decision making skills; I am very stubborn and unrelenting, and sometimes I can keep trying 15 times despite failing 15 times in a row. Most of what I know now I have learned through heavy trial and error, and it's not hard for me to believe it that there are many others that learn what not to do much faster than I learn it. - Stricter rules could have helped me understand many things much sooner, but it would also feel bad for being banned when in your head you are literally trying your hardest and bestest to win. I think if such system to be ever introduced it should be gentle, and won't include exponential ban duration, as nothing limits creativity and motivation as much as punishment.

I think you're right, the foremost objective of a MOBA or any competitive game shouldn't be fun, but fun is an inseparable component that is required for the success and longevity of any system. Now that I think about it, I suppose that malicious actions do indeed incite fun in players that wish to see the team fail, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it to begin with; but I'm certain that it's short-lasting fun that doesn't promote satisfaction and well-being in the long-term, so it's not something I adhere to.

What I must add, however, to your list of what constitutes as "fun" to a non-malicious player, is the exploration of individual approaches that pertain to the self, approaches that separate one from others, in a healthy way, a way that promotes individualism in some sense.

Edited by Lunarios
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So you are saying if i dont have friends online i cant play for fun? I should always pick my strongest hero and do my best to win every time cuz thats fun to you? I should never go the items i want but the items i know will work better in the game? I cant get a kill if i know i will die afterwards and its not worth it even if its fun? You sound like a dictator telling others how they should play in a game where the main purpose is to have fun, ridiculous.

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I'm saying if, for example, you were to play the DotA 1 equivalent of devourer in lobbies, and consistently sucked with the hero, you'd quickly have made yourself known as "that guy" and get banned on sight. That is the difference between matchmaking allowing anti-social behaviors and actually facing the consequences for ruining the game for 4 other people.
Again, fun is a subjective concept. A person with a chemical imbalance in the brain suffering from depression is physically incapable of experiencing pleasure. Similarly a drug addict in a social setting might find some activities enjoyable that are entirely mundane to a spectator.
Sometimes you just have to deal with the fact that playing conservatively and consistently is also what many people consider fun. While at the same time said consistency inspires your teammates to perform better, as they can find mental comfort in the familiarity of the meta.
So, no, I'm not saying you should always choose from the upper percentile pool of heroes in terms of efficacy. What you shouldn't do is treat the matchmaking as your personal playground and other people as toys to play with. Those malicious behaviors are precisely what should be moderated. Though as Lunarios mentioned smurf account mitigation and short 1-2 day suspensions would be much more preferable than compounding ban lengths.

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11 hours ago, GiveUpBra said:

So you are saying if i dont have friends online i cant play for fun? I should always pick my strongest hero and do my best to win every time cuz thats fun to you? I should never go the items i want but the items i know will work better in the game? I cant get a kill if i know i will die afterwards and its not worth it even if its fun? You sound like a dictator telling others how they should play in a game where the main purpose is to have fun, ridiculous.

That's the reason they created CASUAL games, so you can try every crazy build you want without risking ruining others mmr.  You can have as much as fun as you want in CASUAL, not in mmr that is much more towards competitive. 

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2 hours ago, GiveUpBra said:

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, cuz this seems to be getting nowhere.

Oh, we've absolutely gotten somewhere. We've proved our current matchmaking enables people like you who are anti-social. You're the equivalent of an unstable person who goes to the mall every day and stalls the que for 30 minutes because it provides them the attention and thus enjoyment. Except in a society where consequences are real you wouldn't be able to waste others' time.

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You just proved my point, you insult anyone who disagrees with you, very childish and makes me realize how useless would be trying to communicate with you.

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19 minutes ago, GiveUpBra said:

You just proved my point, you insult anyone who disagrees with you, very childish and makes me realize how useless would be trying to communicate with you.

I haven't insulted you at all. You are arguing for having the freedom to act anti-social in a video game because it's "fun". Guess what, if you tried to make a case in real life for why punching homeless people is a great activity and how it is everyone's right to do so, you would be equally shunned. Grow up.

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Just got another game ruined by a new account,  he choose SR and farmed the same easy jungle camp for 30 minutes straigth.  He was lvl 9 when everyone was 20.  But what's the point in report someone like that, that never spent a dollar on the game and can create a new account as soon as he gets banned.  

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11 hours ago, Aikhal said:

Just got another game ruined by a new account,  he choose SR and farmed the same easy jungle camp for 30 minutes straigth.  He was lvl 9 when everyone was 20.  But what's the point in report someone like that, that never spent a dollar on the game and can create a new account as soon as he gets banned.  

If it's a new/throwaway account or if he is suspended on another account already, all accounts are affected by the suspension. So it does matter.

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11 hours ago, Aikhal said:

But what's the point in report someone like that, that never spent a dollar on the game and can create a new account as soon as he gets banned.  

There's all the reason. You can't make multiple accounts on the same email address. It takes slightly more motivation and computer know-how to get around that quickly.

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Posted (edited)

At the end of the day you just have to find a mmr bracket/people to play with, which all play they way you consider fun. It's impossible to ban all the "griefers", cause there is always a grey area. Much like in real life.

Regards

Edited by Froschbein
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9 hours ago, twoscoopsREE said:

There's all the reason. You can't make multiple accounts on the same email address. It takes slightly more motivation and computer know-how to get around that quickly.

It takes 30 seconds to create a Gmail account. 

 

3 hours ago, Froschbein said:

At the end of the day you just have to find a mmr bracket/people to play with, which all play they way you consider fun. It's impossible to ban all the "griefers", cause there is always a grey area. Much like in real life.

Regards

The discussion here is to make harder to new accounts join mmr so people will think twice before get an account banned. 

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9 hours ago, hegelsohn said:

If it's a new/throwaway account or if he is suspended on another account already, all accounts are affected by the suspension. So it does matter.

Same answer I gave before, it takes 30 seconds to create an Gmail account, why someone would risky their account if its that easy to join mmr games ? 

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On 5/10/2021 at 10:55 PM, Aikhal said:

Same answer I gave before, it takes 30 seconds to create an Gmail account, why someone would risky their account if its that easy to join mmr games ? 

If you create a new account and grief on it, you will not be able to play on any account (neither their other nor other newly created ones). (Maybe you did not understand correctly.)

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On 5/7/2021 at 2:14 PM, twoscoopsREE said:

I'm saying if, for example, you were to play the DotA 1 equivalent of devourer in lobbies, and consistently sucked with the hero, you'd quickly have made yourself known as "that guy" and get banned on sight. That is the difference between matchmaking allowing anti-social behaviors and actually facing the consequences for ruining the game for 4 other people.
Again, fun is a subjective concept. A person with a chemical imbalance in the brain suffering from depression is physically incapable of experiencing pleasure. Similarly a drug addict in a social setting might find some activities enjoyable that are entirely mundane to a spectator.
Sometimes you just have to deal with the fact that playing conservatively and consistently is also what many people consider fun. While at the same time said consistency inspires your teammates to perform better, as they can find mental comfort in the familiarity of the meta.
So, no, I'm not saying you should always choose from the upper percentile pool of heroes in terms of efficacy. What you shouldn't do is treat the matchmaking as your personal playground and other people as toys to play with. Those malicious behaviors are precisely what should be moderated. Though as Lunarios mentioned smurf account mitigation and short 1-2 day suspensions would be much more preferable than compounding ban lengths.

which is why we should host our own games with MMR being implied in those. The player base is so small atm anyway that we each know eachother someone with a bad rep would instantly get kicked from the lobby

 

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On 5/10/2021 at 10:55 PM, Aikhal said:

Same answer I gave before, it takes 30 seconds to create an Gmail account, why someone would risky their account if its that easy to join mmr games ? 

This is actually false and Google goes to great lengths to prevent mass account creation. You will likely be prompted to provide a phone number depending how many accounts get created in your network on average.

2 hours ago, EasyWinEasy said:

which is why we should host our own games with MMR being implied in those. The player base is so small atm anyway that we each know eachother someone with a bad rep would instantly get kicked from the lobby

 

Lobbies have their own disadvantages. The majority is not going to be able to invest the time into finding people for regular scrims, and those kinds of games usually have no room for beginner's learning. The prime advantage of MMR is the system that matches you with people of your skill level, and allows progression towards being competitive. You didn't have that in lobbies because the disparity was too great, and you'd be matched with very casual players.

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Of course, I already had several HoN accounts - I have even been challenged that I am a Smurf. Sometimes it happens that your game system is OP to your opponent's game. Yes, I used to play worse on one account for the first few games, but only to learn to play a new character. I am rather "monogamous" and I like to skill one hero, when I get bored of him, I can skill another. It's a good recipe to keep HoN from getting bored, when I start playing with a new character it's like starting to play a whole new game.
I've been playing midwars lately and I can't remember when I met someone I suspected to be a smurf. In other games there are smutrfs because you can buy power leveling and our favorite game is not popular enough for anyone to pay for it

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On 5/12/2021 at 7:14 AM, hegelsohn said:

If you create a new account and grief on it, you will not be able to play on any account (neither their other nor other newly created ones). (Maybe you did not understand correctly.)

I did not understand, because if you can create new e-mails, use vpn, etc, etc how someone can be blocked from playing the game ? 

 

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That's proprietary information. 

If you don't believe it, we could always try it on you, and then we'll see you try to bypass the measure - of course, it's a lot more trouble than it's worth even if you do manage to get around it, and it will cost you in some way or another. Just know that the process works. 

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On 5/6/2021 at 4:12 AM, Manu311 said:

You think so? Just let yourself get hooked every time - just run in all the time. Pretty easy in MW, but you have a lot of walking and dead-time in Foc.
I've won plenty of games where someone would just run into the enemies all the time because it took a lot of time. In the end he had like 0/25, but every death just gave 100-150 gold.
In MW those numbers are a lot higher, respawns are way faster and the distance is pretty short as well.

Sure, but that crosses the line from "playing badly" to "actively griefing". Point remains: it is easier to cover for bad teammates in MW than in FoC.

And I lost a FoC game recently where my teammate bought all the wards and blocked all our neutral camps, which is not a kind of griefing possible in MW.

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5 hours ago, ElementUser said:

That's proprietary information. 

If you don't believe it, we could always try it on you, and then we'll see you try to bypass the measure - of course, it's a lot more trouble than it's worth even if you do manage to get around it, and it will cost you in some way or another. Just know that the process works. 

 

Allmost tempted to take on the offer. 

Im not that tech savy but if anything then a (new location/new device/new wifi/ new clean email with no ties to previous) Should do the trick but yeah kinda sweaty. 😅

 

 

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