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Is it possible to raise a little bit the gold granted by Alchemist Bones from 165 to 180 or 190?

Let me explain - When I play carry heroes, I tend to go for single-target carries that don't have a farm mechanic, and I tend to not pick a farming item such as a hypercrown/cleaver. I mostly rely on Alchemist Bones as a back-up plan / or simply as a minor boost to my GPM. I find it more useful in longer games, but since the average gamespan of HoN games is roughly 30 minutes (which is around the time it takes for Alchemist Bones to pay back its cost), in many cases it provides no benefit.

The thing is that it's hard enough as it is to farm in a single-target manner, and when you do use Alchemist Bones the price of the creep is deducted from the gold addition; basically what it means is that you get +165 gold, and minus the gold you could have had, had you killed the said creep. In the best case scenario of the smallest snotter you lose roughly 10 gold, worst case scenario you target a Vagabond Leader and lose out on ~70 gold.

Before the patch the Alchemist Bones (in my opinion) were nerfed into providing a flat 165 instead of x3 the creeps' value, which allowed the user to target smaller creeps rather than larger ones for gold gain, but overall lowered the potential gold that it is possible to attain from this item.

Overall, I think it has been nerfed a little tiny bit too much, and adding an extra 15-25 gold to its effect would do more good than bad.

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you basically get Alchemist Bones for level dependent heroes as the main selling point with this item is just to get more experience from the creep, basically using it on the biggest hard camp creep or catapult. As I've seen ingame people do the mistake of using it on a low creep just for the gold. There are so many other farming items that you want to get over Alchemist Bones anyways (Thunderclaw, Runed axe, Lightbrand) which fits for most of the heroes.

 

You get Alchemist bones on heroes such as Wildsoul, Shadowblade (not that often anymore but he sure is compatible with it to get the lvl 3 ulti), Pebbles, Ravenor are coming up from my head.

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I tend to agree, the item could require a buff. It would add more variety to the game and would give players another option to choose from. E.g. picking a more active carry to force earlier fights. I rarely play carry as I find the Cleaver/Hypercrown meta quite boring. Heroes like nomad, mk, tarot etc. could make good use of the item as an alternative. 180-200g would be the range that I would go for.

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2 hours ago, Mr`Cactus said:

Why was it even changed to static gold bounty instead of gold multiplier? Was it considered too strong?

as I've mentioned, I thought it was more of an EXP item than a gold item.

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23 hours ago, Mr`Cactus said:

Why was it even changed to static gold bounty instead of gold multiplier? Was it considered too strong?

It was changes so item could've been used on any creep if you need only gold, rather than looking for Vagabond leader.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/16/2021 at 8:57 PM, Nbidjr said:

Nerf convert creep gold to 165 but price item still 1900. Need adjust for that. Some buff covert gold or nerf the price of item

I didn't think of that, but to be honest it sounds like a really good idea. If the gold gained on usage remains 165, however the price is lowered to let's say 1650 gold (from 1950), then you can optimally get it at the 4-minute mark and pay back the item cost at the 24-minute mark (ideally if nothing goes wrong along the way i.e. dying thus pausing the timer)

At the moment it stands at minimum acquisition under normal circumstances at the 5-minute mark and item payback timing of 29 minutes in-game time.

Perhaps boosting the gold per use to 175 and lowering the item price to 1750, or even 170 and 1800, to prevent too early acquisition of the item by many heroes? 

 

(I'm being conservative with the numbers since this item has many uses besides gold-gain, so boosting it too much would create a situation where it would be picked by too many players { A little similar to what has been with Elder Parasite; being slightly numerically buffed by a few Attack Speed and Attack Damage points - thereafter it was picked up by almost everyone}. Since this item is used as a counter to some enemy heroes, sees use with support heroes / offlaners, it doesn't need a big buff imo - it needs a minor buff, but that minor buff is very important in my eyes.)

Edited by Lunarios
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7 hours ago, Lunarios said:

At the moment it stands at minimum acquisition under normal circumstances at the 5-minute mark

You usually if you have good farm with lets say a Wildsoul you can get it sub 6-minutes, but usually early in the 6-minute mark. But I still think you guys are just thinking about the item as a gold item but should rather think about it as an EXP item, since there are no other item besides Tome of Elements that increases exp by its effect. I am not sure about if the 1750 gold at 4 mins would be possible for a Wildsoul for example as you get around 1200 gold around the 4 min mark getting the buildup item for it. Another buff could be to revert it to its old form where it required 2x Gloves of the swift. But I guess that it was nerfed to being the 1200 gold over those gloves for a reason. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Ladonien said:

You usually if you have good farm with lets say a Wildsoul you can get it sub 6-minutes, but usually early in the 6-minute mark. But I still think you guys are just thinking about the item as a gold item but should rather think about it as an EXP item, since there are no other item besides Tome of Elements that increases exp by its effect. I am not sure about if the 1750 gold at 4 mins would be possible for a Wildsoul for example as you get around 1200 gold around the 4 min mark getting the buildup item for it. Another buff could be to revert it to its old form where it required 2x Gloves of the swift. But I guess that it was nerfed to being the 1200 gold over those gloves for a reason. 

Usually when I'm short farm against a solo offlaner I get it around the 4:50-5:20 mark as a first item to maximize the benefit from the gold timer.

I'm looking at it as a gold item because as it currently stands, even in its current form, it provides me enough gold benefit to go out all the way to purchase it for 1950 gold, along with the pause-on-death timer. The EXP is rather redundant for me, as most of the time as a Support I would not have enough gold to buy it anyway, and if I do have the gold I'd rather have a PK / Stormspirit.

The EXP is not very important for me personally, as an extra level or two as a short-farm carry would make little difference to me, but a steady income of Gold (even if it is low) is vital, especially if it means I can skip Hypercrown or Cleaver.

I just can't see it as an efficient EXP item, as at the best case scenario you would transmute a Vagabond Leader which grants 130 EXP. 130 x 1.75 = 227.5. 227.5 - 130 = 97.5. 97.5 Extra experience points equals to 1.5 lane creeps. The distance that you would have to travel to get that Vagabond Leader would equal to or more 1.5 lane creeps' worth of EXP. Whilst an efficient use of Tome of Elements could grant you 1000 Experience points, 1000 experience points for 200 gold, or 975 experience over 20 minutes (if you do not die) that costs 1950 gold? (That is also considering you could find 10 available Vagabonds, as any other neutral would provide even less EXP benefit)

Just for clarification the maximum average amount of gold attainable in the short lane at the 4-minute mark is 1645 gold. If you manage to kill 2-3 extra neutrals without missing last-hits, or get an enemy hero kill, it would be attainable at that point. I don't know about Wildsoul in the Jungle and the dynamics there, as I never play Wildsoul, so I'm strictly speaking from a short-lane carry against a solo offlaner.

Edited by Lunarios
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1 hour ago, Lunarios said:

I just can't see it as an efficient EXP item, as at the best case scenario you would transmute a Vagabond Leader which grants 130 EXP. 130 x 1.75 = 227.5. 227.5 - 130 = 97.5. 97.5 Extra experience points equals to 1.5 lane creeps. The distance that you would have to travel to get that Vagabond Leader would equal to or more 1.5 lane creeps' worth of EXP. Whilst an efficient use of Tome of Elements could grant you 1000 Experience points, 1000 experience points for 200 gold, or 975 experience over 20 minutes (if you do not die) that costs 1950 gold? (That is also considering you could find 10 available Vagabonds, as any other neutral would provide even less EXP benefit)

There are situations where you cant farm short lane because enemys are setting up (multiple) ganks or the lane is too pushed because your support missed to pull the lane because hes ganking (or sleeping). You just flee into the jungle to farm there (potentially even start taking early stacked camps with some help). 

Snowballing shoudln't be underestimated in HoN. Honstats match analysis feature "Player Net Worth Over Time" easily shows the sudden power spikes especially in the early/midgame. By all means you should not rush Alchemists every game, but if both teams go for a hardcarry with defensive supports its the best choice.

 

Tome of Elements doesnt give your carry 1000 experience. If it does hes underleveled thus underfarmed and the game is most likely lost anyway.

Edited by Stahlzeit
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