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4.9.2 - Pre-patch discussion


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Official Patch Notes link: 

 

I am trying something new this time - I released the patch notes a little earlier so that players have roughly 2 days (until March 24, 2021 at say, roughly 7pm EDT/GMT-4) to give feedback in case they want particular balance changes to be changed, added or removed from the patch.

I will read everything in this thread & give them consideration, and will lock the patch notes after that point (save for anything that needs to be added under my discretion after that date.

 

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Other than that, feel free to discuss about the patch here.

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Perfect patch!   - Stupid Artierlly nerfed (hero adds nothing to the game besides turtling and hiding) - Ardenaline nerf (Hero was banned permanetly. Ppl abused him to smurf up to legen

Official Patch Notes link:    I am trying something new this time - I released the patch notes a little earlier so that players have roughly 2 days (until March 24, 2021 at say, roughly 7pm

4.9.0 Lets give Flint truestrike aura so he got bullied for bying savage mace, because "herp, derp, why did you get it? you already have true strike!111" 4.9.2 Ok, lets nerf hell out the Flint. Ta

The fix to the creep blocking by giving them unit walking+cliff walking hurts behemoth suicide, and will make him near unviable to play, and will force him to instantly roam from the get-go. Suicide behmoth blocking the first wave has been a staple of the hero in this role and is absolutely necessary as suicide as a role and the players have already been suffering quite a lot.

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However, the idea remains to be that you need to block from the tier 3 tower in order to get 2 blocks off and thus actually acquire lane control, otherwise, the cooldown doesn't come off at around the time the creep wave is still blockable a second time.

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I *may* consider changing it, after speaking with some higher level players.

However, if a hero needs a gimmick like this to work in higher level play, then I'm pretty sure the hero itself needs changes to not rely on the gimmicky play.

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I'm a higher level player, always have been. 

Since forever, and consistently through pro play and high bracket matches throughout the ages, behe double block has been a staple of the hero and a selling point for it getting a level or two early on into the game, as it is very weak in 1 on and even many 1v1 situations, the hero has a relatively weak laning phase and this is one of its only selling points.

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And to emphasize, behe fissure block is NOT a gimmick, it's a necessary feature that allows the hero to do what it does, and having boosted dual lanes and nerfed suicides very hard with the introduction of the medium pull in addition to orb of zamos, a weak laning suicide hero (yet one of the most noteworthy ones that comes to mind when mentioning the role) like behemoth would suffer far too much from a change like this, damaging its already-hard-struck viability in the suicide lane. -palestine

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I think the LRM damage nerf is a little bit over tuned. A near 25% damage nerf is a lot. Even if you factor in the nerf to early game/low cost armor items, the damage nerf targets his mid game and beyond. Maybe lightening it from 28% -> 25% would be a lot smoother.

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Posted (edited)

Artillery's consistently been 58-61% for the last 2 patches. I can't take it slowly with that hero ever since Lightbrand has been readjusted (for the better too), and I'm not reverting Lightbrand.

The hero needs to have its performance converge at a quick rate when next patch hits.

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Great stuff, I'd love to see veiled rod granting allied heroes invisibility as well. Maybe at a slightly higher cost. It encourages teamplay much more (at least that's what I experienced in my few hours of dota2).

Really interesting change to kraken ult. Gonna try that asap. Same goes for Cthulu and Engi.

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The patch is well balanced and there are many issues that were fixed.

The only thing in my opinion as a really old player and even maybe for others is about the Blood Hunter.

The staff change is great, but i really miss when BloodHunter had the buff on the silence and he could apply to himself or to his allies.

I really think that that was the core of that hero, taking your hp in order to do more damage and it was a perfect synch of the hero with the othet abilities.

 

Furthermore, i would like to add, that also Glacius, W to add the freeze, on self/ allies to reduce damage was really good feture.

 

 

 

Thank you for your time, peace

 

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Are you kidding, TB has another item to reach godhood with. But kraken is slowly moving away from life threatening PK dependency, which is nice.

If Cthu's W doesn't interrupt anymore, can you take a look at Rampage's W and Solstice's W? They're in the same ball park.

And in Rampage's case, it's unlikely for him to travel 2000 distance to get 2s off Horned Strike, realistically he will only get 1, so overall it comes off as a nerf in most situations since it can only go from same to worse than before. It'd be better if it's more consistent in smaller values like 0.25s for each 250 distance. or 0.5s for each 500, if there's some reasons it should remain a high threshold.

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5 hours ago, palestine` said:

Are we allowed to suggest changes in this thread that were not implemented? Not necessarily to be added this patch but to be taken heavily into consideration for future patches (hopefully).

Revert drunken master to its legacy state, while adding all the number changes for it to keep up with the current meta. Sufficient counter play is more than available for its R and it would buff the hero's winrate which has been suffering for a while now, as well as giving him the ability to be a viable (niche) short farming hero again. Watching old hon tour videos just for the nostalgia of how nice the hero was.

Orb of Zamos is an item that all supports have to get or they will fall off and the enemy support will be far more farmed. An item that ALL supports (or any certain role) has to get in order to stay relevant in a match is very polarizing, and defeats the purpose of any skill one support may have over another. If orb/grave change is too scary of a move to go back from, is there any chance the suicide lane dynamics could be taken another look at? Having a pull camp is, in most cases harmful to the suicide, and can make outplaying a suicide hero and keeping it low on exp far too easy, taking away from mechanics like denying and actually boxing the enemy out and simplifying it to *hit neutral 53-55, move back to lane, big profit*

Make brutalizer a viable item again by changing its components back to what they were, and thus making it 350 gold cheaper, as it is currently rarely if ever picked up on any hero in the game consistently or viably, which is such a shame for such a legacy item like basher, to pale this hard in comparison to its old item counterparts. 

If there is any place or channel in which I could push harder for these changes ot attempt to convince you how they would be healthy (finding a different way for supports to earn gold besides zamos is the most controversial one, however it would mainly force people to relearn how to support, forcing them to play a different way, and not rewarding a lack of doing anything, an alternative would be very very welcome, but supports consistently hitting 220-300 gpm even in losing games should not be a thing. Please do let me know where I can voice my opinions for them to be better heard or what I have to do to be taken seriously with my feedback. Your reply would be greatly appreciated.

 

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4.9.0 Lets give Flint truestrike aura so he got bullied for bying savage mace, because "herp, derp, why did you get it? you already have true strike!111"
4.9.2 Ok, lets nerf hell out the Flint.
Take that aura back and rewert nerfs. 
 

Quote

 

3 Point Strike
- Strike point reset delay increased from 8 seconds to 12 seconds.
+ Just a few more quality-of-life changes to Drunken Master to improve his combat flow in accordance with his Drink usage.

 

>reset increased by 50%
>QoL change
🤣
Playing as nuker: Just press button and point on target to deal damage with ur skill.
Playing as agi carry: Just rightclick to kill everything.
Playing as DM: Play stupid gimmick minigame to deal damage, while playing game. Play second minigame aka "Drink in the midlle of the fight and try to not die or hide to drink and let the team die while you drink" to reduce cd of skills, because they have been nerfed to the ground. 
3.9.0 Iteration of DM was the best, simple yet fun to play.

Quote

Horned Strike
- Cooldown is now also reduced by 1 second per 1000 units travelled.
- Cooldown increased from 6 seconds to 7 seconds.

Wow, such buff much power.
You can run distance from T2 to T1 to get 1 second cd rudection
Too bad we already added that 1 second to cooldown. 🤡
Skill doesn't has stun mechanic anymore, but it's now has 7 seconds cd again. Who cares about 80% slow if most meta heroes have some or another escape?
Also rewert this already, hero doesn't has that stupid shield that protects from 1 autoattack anymore. 
 

Quote

Version 4.0.0

  • Strength gain per level decreased from 2.8 to 2.2.

WTF? Why? 
 

Quote

Genjuro
- Each player can only purchase a maximum of 1 Genjuro per game.
- Genjuro can no longer be dropped.

 

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Perfect patch!

 

- Stupid Artierlly nerfed (hero adds nothing to the game besides turtling and hiding)

- Ardenaline nerf (Hero was banned permanetly. Ppl abused him to smurf up to legendary)

- Flint nerf (good and much needed)

All i asked for ...

 

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5 hours ago, sadasfk said:

 

Balance discussion is the right place for this. To answer it briefly though:

 

No for Drunken Master. The original R is badly designed (perma Null Stone, with damage reduction) and it's one of the things that made the hero require not much skill to play. 

 

No for Orb of Zamos. You can have your viewpoint (I think it's pessimistic), but the game has changed too much for the better with the item. It's like the automated courier - there's no going back on this one.

 

For suicide heroes, you just have to live with it. The only real thing I am considering doing in the future is putting a pullable camp in between their tier 2 and 1 towers. Enemies cannot contest, and they get guaranteed pull XP and gold. And that's a consideration, not a for-sure addition in the future. It's hard to address heroes via items or hero specific balance without also buffing their performance in other lanes. 

 

Maybe later for Brutalizer. Permabash is not a fun concept to play against. That's the main reason we've always been hesitant on giving it a buff. 

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2 hours ago, DemonSparda said:

4.9.0 Lets give Flint truestrike aura so he got bullied for bying savage mace, because "herp, derp, why did you get it? you already have true strike!111"
4.9.2 Ok, lets nerf hell out the Flint.
Take that aura back and rewert nerfs. 
 

>reset increased by 50%
>QoL change
🤣
Playing as nuker: Just press button and point on target to deal damage with ur skill.
Playing as agi carry: Just rightclick to kill everything.
Playing as DM: Play stupid gimmick minigame to deal damage, while playing game. Play second minigame aka "Drink in the midlle of the fight and try to not die or hide to drink and let the team die while you drink" to reduce cd of skills, because they have been nerfed to the ground. 
3.9.0 Iteration of DM was the best, simple yet fun to play.

Wow, such buff much power.
You can run distance from T2 to T1 to get 1 second cd rudection
Too bad we already added that 1 second to cooldown. 🤡
Skill doesn't has stun mechanic anymore, but it's now has 7 seconds cd again. Who cares about 80% slow if most meta heroes have some or another escape?
Also rewert this already, hero doesn't has that stupid shield that protects from 1 autoattack anymore. 
 

WTF? Why? 
 

 

Nice meming, I guess? It doesn't add much to your cause when you're trying to convince me. It makes me laugh for a split second and that's about it. 

 

For rampage though, you'd be surprised how much your hero actually moves. It's a net buff, but it's subtle. 

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19 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

Balance discussion is the right place for this. To answer it briefly though:

 

No for Drunken Master. The original R is badly designed (perma Null Stone, with damage reduction) and it's one of the things that made the hero require not much skill to play. 

 

No for Orb of Zamos. You can have your viewpoint (I think it's pessimistic), but the game has changed too much for the better with the item. It's like the automated courier - there's no going back on this one.

 

For suicide heroes, you just have to live with it. The only real thing I am considering doing in the future is putting a pullable camp in between their tier 2 and 1 towers. Enemies cannot contest, and they get guaranteed pull XP and gold. And that's a consideration, not a for-sure addition in the future. It's hard to address heroes via items or hero specific balance without also buffing their performance in other lanes. 

 

Maybe later for Brutalizer. Permabash is not a fun concept to play against. That's the main reason we've always been hesitant on giving it a buff. 

Thank you for taking the time to reply and interact with the community, it's actually very appreciated.

I'm not suggesting old E implementation, I'm suggesting old R, with no damage (or barely any) reduction, and extra damage, and for an (obviously) low duration. Pair that with a hefty (yet acceptable) ulti cd, in combination with making his early game presence healthy and not too strong, could be a possibility to fix the hero, as it's just weird right now and the old drunken master was both very viable and required at least some skill. (Again, 3.9.0 DM is the closest we got to my suggested changes, which had him as close to viable as he could be without being broken). Many current heroes are quite brainless and require no skill, yet they're tested patch in patch out and then reworked accordingly. 

As for zamos, I can see the merits of what you're saying, but I also consider the absolute necessity of the item on supports to render little counterplay. The supports on the team that is ahead often have too much gold early on. (Think position 5 witch slayer with a 20 minute PK, the fastest catch in the game, making him far more impactful than a struggling glaciuses with striders grave locket and vestments at the same time. The gold differential between them offers little counterplay, the team that is ahead can keep its lead far too easily with supports and secondary supports being over 300 gpm with 0 towers taken, which is just hurtful. I am not suggesting outrighy removing the idea of zamos, but considering an alternative way in which supports can get a healthy amount of gold (tome of elements is also another way in which the supports of the team that is ahead are far too advanced for the losing team to really play around that, maybe some number rework there could be beneficial? It isn't as polarizing as zamos is though but I just thought I would mention it).

As for basher, I'm not saying its cooldown should be lowered or that it should give 25 attack speed or anything of the sort. Reverting it to quickblade+mightyblade+1100 recipe makes it so that it gives a useful amount of stats for its price and an effect that goes well with it, while not being over the top broken in terms of how its buffs (stat gains) synergize with its effect. Which does not even closely equate to permabash. 

 

Any chance we can somehow get alt avatar portraits showing in game (for kills/deaths) being an option? I'm a very nostalgic hon player and that being added would be super cool:)

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