Jump to content

Recommended Posts

High attack/cast range is a silly thing that should just be removed entirely. Basically once opponent has these things, it is very frustrating to play against them, because you either use your gap closers on them, or they will kill you. You cannot TDL E your opponent's Shadowblade for example if they have an Artillery/Flint; you will never be able to hit them afterwards and they will kill you. Plus you can't run from them very well, because they will still kill you. And don't mention how retarded it is to have Blacksmith walk up and fish for multicasts with his Q, backing off if he doesn't get it, and you cannot punish him because he's got uber range thanks to Jade Spire. Jade Spire in particular is very silly if you are trying to push a tower and they can always fend off your creeps (+ harass your heroes) from beyond initiation range.

Remember the time DDOG played Doombringer Artillery hugging the T4 towers while his teammates backdoored with Nymphora + Silhouette ulti? That's what long range skills do.

Suggestions:

1. Remove/rework Artillery. Scaling physical damage from 1.8k range is never going to be balanced; it will either be overpowered or underpowered. This wouldn't be the first failed experiment in HoN either (see "let's make a hero that can move and attack" aka Nitro).
2. Flint can keep his long range but no more than ~800 (900 after Wingbow).
3. Remove/rework Jade Spire.

Link to post
Share on other sites

And while we are on that rant, also remove Portal Key because it extends your initiation range by a large portion that most other heroes don't naturally have the ability to react to. And please also remove auto attacks because sometimes opponents by autoattack items and deal more damage than i do.
Oh and also get rid of heroes with ultimates that deal alot of damage at once because some heroes don't have that and it is unfair....
Man I used to have mad respect for you but that post just made me lose so much. it reads more like a childish rant after losing to an artillery or the likes because you did not get veiled rot to destroy his laning phase...

Link to post
Share on other sites

My opinion is artillery should be left alone without touching anything.

Idk why some ppl want him to be buffed just because they dont see ppl pick him in FoC, that heroes is frustrating when playing against.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, w3wstarboy said:

My opinion is artillery should be left alone without touching anything.

Idk why some ppl want him to be buffed just because they dont see ppl pick him in FoC, that heroes is frustrating when playing against.

he doesn't want him buffed, he wants him nerfed/reworked.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/21/2021 at 10:32 PM, MerryHONmas said:

And while we are on that rant, also remove Portal Key because it extends your initiation range by a large portion that most other heroes don't naturally have the ability to react to. And please also remove auto attacks because sometimes opponents by autoattack items and deal more damage than i do.
Oh and also get rid of heroes with ultimates that deal alot of damage at once because some heroes don't have that and it is unfair....
Man I used to have mad respect for you but that post just made me lose so much. it reads more like a childish rant after losing to an artillery or the likes because you did not get veiled rot to destroy his laning phase...

Explain your reasoning, because I don't see how you came to these conclusions from OP.

Also did you play DotA when Blink Dagger (aka Portal Key) didn't go on cooldown when you took hero damage?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sorais said:

Explain your reasoning, because I don't see how you came to these conclusions from OP.

Also did you play DotA when Blink Dagger (aka Portal Key) didn't go on cooldown when you took hero damage?

I was mocking your initial rant dude, none of those were ment serious.
May not have been the nicest thing to do but the "reasonings" I provided pretty much lined up with yours: "too unconvenient to play against because I don't like it and hero has a nice that others don't".
Problem isn't the heros range, not even by a far shot. It is ultra annoying to play against, but either heroes issue is the way they scale from the same two items into lategame, even if they had a shitty early game. It's the way the heroes scale that needs to be addressed, not their niche!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hahaha sorais is midwar player so he can say like that because he hate the hero when he meet at midwar. So many counter the hero so no need reworks or something. The hero just fine for now

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/23/2021 at 2:47 AM, Nbidjr said:

Hahaha sorais is midwar player so he can say like that because he hate the hero when he meet at midwar. So many counter the hero so no need reworks or something. The hero just fine for now

Newsflash, I play FoC too, and FYI I play against Artillery/Flint more in FoC than in MW, simply because they're banned so often in MW.

On 3/23/2021 at 1:45 AM, MerryHONmas said:

I was mocking your initial rant dude, none of those were ment serious.
May not have been the nicest thing to do but the "reasonings" I provided pretty much lined up with yours: "too unconvenient to play against because I don't like it and hero has a nice that others don't".
Problem isn't the heros range, not even by a far shot. It is ultra annoying to play against, but either heroes issue is the way they scale from the same two items into lategame, even if they had a shitty early game. It's the way the heroes scale that needs to be addressed, not their niche!

What do you mean range is not the issue. If you're playing a hero like Predator/Shadowblade you literally cannot jump Flint because he outranges your jump. Artillery further outranges PK. The uber range means you cannot run away from these heroes, once you go you are committed. Plus you better hope you kill them because if you don't, they can continue to do damage safely while you don't have gap closers anymore.

Range is oppressive. Did you try playing MW with pre-nerf Jade Spire? FoC fights are more mobile than MW, but it doesn't make uber long range healthier to have. Compare the likes of Artillery/Flint/various heroes such as Thunderbringer with Jade Spire against the skills that naturally have very long range like Chipper/Artesia Qs (which are unreliable) and stuff like Behemoth Q (which have long cooldown). It's just not at the same level.

Also just like how these gap closers (Predator Q etc) sets a fundamental range, PK also sets a fundamental range in the game. Things that fiddle with this range had better be carefully tuned, or games shift dramatically when the relevant item is acquired.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Sorais said:

What do you mean range is not the issue. If you're playing a hero like Predator/Shadowblade you literally cannot jump Flint because he outranges your jump. Artillery further outranges PK. The uber range means you cannot run away from these heroes, once you go you are committed. Plus you better hope you kill them because if you don't, they can continue to do damage safely while you don't have gap closers anymore.

Well if there is no range niche, heroes like Pred and Shadow would be the ones being oppressive BECAUSE of their gap closers and insane utility and damage potential.
It's really not the range that is the issue although I can agree with you that Art has too much range for his raw damage on Q as it scales with his attackdamage. But bringing forward PK is a bit of an ignorant move because if you approach Art or Flint from the lane or any other visible area, then that is you not playing clever, and not their range that is at fault (no offense). That's literally what we have Veiled Rot for. If you want to initiate on them that is. but same actually goes for running away, Veiled Rot works wonders, people just don't really much use it to escape an Artillery or a Flint. Also, there is still Void Talisman, mind you. See I am actually glad you mentioned Shadowblade and Predator because they are the exact opposites of Flint and Artillery, once they are in range, YOU don't get away anymore. So why is it okay for heroes with such high raw Damage Potential you exploit their kit and not let anyone escape, but for others that exploit range to not do what they do?

4 hours ago, Sorais said:

Range is oppressive. Did you try playing MW with pre-nerf Jade Spire? FoC fights are more mobile than MW, but it doesn't make uber long range healthier to have. Compare the likes of Artillery/Flint/various heroes such as Thunderbringer with Jade Spire against the skills that naturally have very long range like Chipper/Artesia Qs (which are unreliable) and stuff like Behemoth Q (which have long cooldown). It's just not at the same level.

You absolutely did not actually related your initial Post to MW, in fact it reads as if you are referring to FoC, there is NO indication of you talking about MW there.
But also it was stated very clearly that there will be no MW exclusive reworks or balance changes that go beyond minor numbers change. Now ofcourse it is up to Element to change his opinion but I am just saying. Also that aside, last I checked  you can still outplay opponents with Veiled Rot in MW too. Enough spots that you can go to to vanish and then move around them. Ofcourse not as easily as in FoC but then again you chose to play a Mode that is literally based around only playing on a single lane and for a fact, other MW like modes on other MobAs offer way less area around the designated lane. It's just a natural given that certain heroes are stronger but that is literally why you have twice as many bans as FoC does...

4 hours ago, Sorais said:

Also just like how these gap closers (Predator Q etc) sets a fundamental range, PK also sets a fundamental range in the game. Things that fiddle with this range had better be carefully tuned, or games shift dramatically when the relevant item is acquired.

Newsflash for you it seems, PK is not supposed to set a range limit. Even less so are Shadow or Pred leaps. imagine if they set fundamental range limits... if you pick a hero like Predator or Shadowblade that have an oppressive presence in raw potential and damage and utility, then hell yeah there needs a way for those to be punished, and be it just hit and run because you outrange their leap. But again, even in MW, that can be outplayed too.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/26/2021 at 5:39 AM, MerryHONmas said:

Well if there is no range niche, heroes like Pred and Shadow would be the ones being oppressive BECAUSE of their gap closers and insane utility and damage potential.
It's really not the range that is the issue although I can agree with you that Art has too much range for his raw damage on Q as it scales with his attackdamage. But bringing forward PK is a bit of an ignorant move because if you approach Art or Flint from the lane or any other visible area, then that is you not playing clever, and not their range that is at fault (no offense). That's literally what we have Veiled Rot for. If you want to initiate on them that is. but same actually goes for running away, Veiled Rot works wonders, people just don't really much use it to escape an Artillery or a Flint. Also, there is still Void Talisman, mind you. See I am actually glad you mentioned Shadowblade and Predator because they are the exact opposites of Flint and Artillery, once they are in range, YOU don't get away anymore. So why is it okay for heroes with such high raw Damage Potential you exploit their kit and not let anyone escape, but for others that exploit range to not do what they do?

You absolutely did not actually related your initial Post to MW, in fact it reads as if you are referring to FoC, there is NO indication of you talking about MW there.
But also it was stated very clearly that there will be no MW exclusive reworks or balance changes that go beyond minor numbers change. Now ofcourse it is up to Element to change his opinion but I am just saying. Also that aside, last I checked  you can still outplay opponents with Veiled Rot in MW too. Enough spots that you can go to to vanish and then move around them. Ofcourse not as easily as in FoC but then again you chose to play a Mode that is literally based around only playing on a single lane and for a fact, other MW like modes on other MobAs offer way less area around the designated lane. It's just a natural given that certain heroes are stronger but that is literally why you have twice as many bans as FoC does...

Newsflash for you it seems, PK is not supposed to set a range limit. Even less so are Shadow or Pred leaps. imagine if they set fundamental range limits... if you pick a hero like Predator or Shadowblade that have an oppressive presence in raw potential and damage and utility, then hell yeah there needs a way for those to be punished, and be it just hit and run because you outrange their leap. But again, even in MW, that can be outplayed too.

Are you being serious? Predator/Shadowblade gap closers are 600-650 range. That's almost the same attack range as many ranged heroes. If you can hit them, they can jump you. Conversely, if they can jump you, that's because you are able to attack them. Don't mention oppressive. What would be oppressive is if their gap closers are 1000 range. Also even if they jump you, you can still get away, thanks to items like Tablet & Sand Scepter.

Veiled Rot is not equivalent, it has 1000 dispel range, and you still need a way to gap close afterwards. Void Talisman stops Artillery from killing you (but not Flint because his ult goes through), but it doesn't let you kill them.

If I didn't relate my initial post to MW what on earth makes you think I was NOT referring to FoC? Did you think I don't know how to play FoC? I'm literally the 3rd-ranked player on the Garena ladder right now for normal mode. You can talk all you want about range in MW and I will ignore it, because it is not relevant for this thread.

PK should set a range limit because it's an item, which means everyone can get it, and because it's the range at which most heroes get dangerous (Moraxus et al who rely on PK, for example). If you are beyond PK range you are (usually) safe, if you are within it you need to be careful. Don't know what else there is to say about that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sorais said:

Are you being serious? Predator/Shadowblade gap closers are 600-650 range. That's almost the same attack range as many ranged heroes. If you can hit them, they can jump you. Conversely, if they can jump you, that's because you are able to attack them. Don't mention oppressive. What would be oppressive is if their gap closers are 1000 range. Also even if they jump you, you can still get away, thanks to items like Tablet & Sand Scepter.

Veiled Rot is not equivalent, it has 1000 dispel range, and you still need a way to gap close afterwards. Void Talisman stops Artillery from killing you (but not Flint because his ult goes through), but it doesn't let you kill them.

If I didn't relate my initial post to MW what on earth makes you think I was NOT referring to FoC? Did you think I don't know how to play FoC? I'm literally the 3rd-ranked player on the Garena ladder right now for normal mode. You can talk all you want about range in MW and I will ignore it, because it is not relevant for this thread.

PK should set a range limit because it's an item, which means everyone can get it, and because it's the range at which most heroes get dangerous (Moraxus et al who rely on PK, for example). If you are beyond PK range you are (usually) safe, if you are within it you need to be careful. Don't know what else there is to say about that.

bruhv YOU were the one that mentioned mw, NOT me!
that's why i even just brought it up, i literally don't play that mode ver, i don't care about it, in fact i even dislike it even while testing for RCT.
It may make testing simpler because of accessability and availability of certain conditions, but it also creates a huge void for other conditions that usually only get met in FoC matches or even just suddenly show up there but you wouldn't think about during a MW testing game.
don't twist this on me, your second post indicated a MW relation, THAT's what i was responding too cause it "rightfully" confused me particularly with your response now.

Veiled Rot has 1000 dispel range, yes, if you use your map to your advantage you can still circumvent any opponent ward and engage with opponents through trees before they have a chance to react. that's a fact, that's why this item is frequently used for ganks and ebcause of how cheap and available it is. 1000 range only matters if you run straight across the lane or through opponents towers and with all due respect if that's what you fail your gank too then that's a player error.

Void is THE hardcounter to artillery and allows you to teleport out and get away from him. it also allows you to engage with him under certain conditions but that's a more minmax condition so i won't get into it. Void ALSO allows you to play around Flint.
Yes ult and flare go through it, but if you let flint do his thing and then void when you are low so he can peacefully ult you, that's again a palyer error, and as rank 3 player, you should know that. Btw, me bringing up Void as a counter is a situational response AS YOU VERY FUCKING WELL KNOW and not a hardfact. heroes HAVE different niches. some burst you the fuck to the ground if you don't have high hp or deflection. other close gaps and beat you into the ground, and others don't let you escape after they caught up with you. it's just fucking natural that there are a few that do the exact opposite, not let you close your gap.
yes it's annoying, but there are more than enough ways to deal with those heroes and in terms of artillery, the only item that enables him is in fact lightbrand and that got nerfed. it#s still good on him, but that item is why art is so strong currently.
art has been fucking USELESS for more than a year until that recent Grimoire buff that gladly got changed again.
and what makes Flint good, is positioning and his team!

And no, it should not set a fucking range limit because the item CAN be bought by everyone but should not ever be a "must have or be useless" on all heroes.
Moraxus needing it is actually a Moraxus issue, not a PK or Flint having more range issue. Skillshots are skillshots and have high rewards for high risks, there is that. Moraxus IS a strong hero but in mid to late game has to sacrifice his power for a PK. A lot of heroes have that issue. But i'd be a fool to not agree Moraxus relies on it more than others.

But again, thats a Moraxus problem because the hero is from a different era.
 

with all due respect but it seems to me this rant is coming from having lost to flints and arts because you did not ban them but also were too stubborn to adapt your teamplay and your picks and items to the situation and only being willing to partially commit to playing around them, because you (and this is quite the strong impression) were too busy exploiting the shadowblade buff that thankfully got tuned down too.

which, should it be true, would make you quite hypocrite.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/1/2021 at 1:09 PM, MerryHONmas said:

bruhv YOU were the one that mentioned mw, NOT me!
that's why i even just brought it up, i literally don't play that mode ver, i don't care about it, in fact i even dislike it even while testing for RCT.
It may make testing simpler because of accessability and availability of certain conditions, but it also creates a huge void for other conditions that usually only get met in FoC matches or even just suddenly show up there but you wouldn't think about during a MW testing game.
don't twist this on me, your second post indicated a MW relation, THAT's what i was responding too cause it "rightfully" confused me particularly with your response now.

Veiled Rot has 1000 dispel range, yes, if you use your map to your advantage you can still circumvent any opponent ward and engage with opponents through trees before they have a chance to react. that's a fact, that's why this item is frequently used for ganks and ebcause of how cheap and available it is. 1000 range only matters if you run straight across the lane or through opponents towers and with all due respect if that's what you fail your gank too then that's a player error.

Void is THE hardcounter to artillery and allows you to teleport out and get away from him. it also allows you to engage with him under certain conditions but that's a more minmax condition so i won't get into it. Void ALSO allows you to play around Flint.
Yes ult and flare go through it, but if you let flint do his thing and then void when you are low so he can peacefully ult you, that's again a palyer error, and as rank 3 player, you should know that. Btw, me bringing up Void as a counter is a situational response AS YOU VERY FUCKING WELL KNOW and not a hardfact. heroes HAVE different niches. some burst you the fuck to the ground if you don't have high hp or deflection. other close gaps and beat you into the ground, and others don't let you escape after they caught up with you. it's just fucking natural that there are a few that do the exact opposite, not let you close your gap.
yes it's annoying, but there are more than enough ways to deal with those heroes and in terms of artillery, the only item that enables him is in fact lightbrand and that got nerfed. it#s still good on him, but that item is why art is so strong currently.
art has been fucking USELESS for more than a year until that recent Grimoire buff that gladly got changed again.
and what makes Flint good, is positioning and his team!

And no, it should not set a fucking range limit because the item CAN be bought by everyone but should not ever be a "must have or be useless" on all heroes.
Moraxus needing it is actually a Moraxus issue, not a PK or Flint having more range issue. Skillshots are skillshots and have high rewards for high risks, there is that. Moraxus IS a strong hero but in mid to late game has to sacrifice his power for a PK. A lot of heroes have that issue. But i'd be a fool to not agree Moraxus relies on it more than others.

But again, thats a Moraxus problem because the hero is from a different era.
 

with all due respect but it seems to me this rant is coming from having lost to flints and arts because you did not ban them but also were too stubborn to adapt your teamplay and your picks and items to the situation and only being willing to partially commit to playing around them, because you (and this is quite the strong impression) were too busy exploiting the shadowblade buff that thankfully got tuned down too.

which, should it be true, would make you quite hypocrite.

Read my 2nd post carefully and tell me where the MW relation is.

Then read my 3rd post again, specifically the first sentence of the paragraph that mentions MW.

Void stops Artillery from killing you, but it does not let you kill him. It's not a full-blown "counter". If you want to kill him you still need your gap closers and PKs and whatnot and at that point Void doesn't do anything. Items that stop him from killing you is helpful, but be careful to distinguish between what helps you win the game and what helps you lose a little slower.

Void does not allow you to play around Flint any more than it allows you to play around any physical carry. I have no idea what you are thinking, Flint is countered less by Void than most other physical attackers in the game since his ultimate goes through. And Void still does not help you kill Flint, if you want to kill him you still need your gap closers and PKs and whatnot and at that point Void doesn't do anything. Items that stop him from killing you is helpful, but be careful to distinguish between what helps you win the game and what helps you lose a little slower.

Artillery is not healthy for the game and it's better he stay useless than be a good hero (c.f. Nitro), because - surprise! - scaling physical damage from 2k range is never going to be balanced. Flint is on the edge of being unhealthy as well.

I don't think you addressed my argument about PK setting a fundamental range. And if you want to say things like "you sound like you lost to Artillery/Flint and are mad", I'll flip it around and say "you sound like you pick Artillery/Flint a lot and are mad". Which, should it be true, would make you quite hypocrite.

/shrug.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sorais said:

Read my 2nd post carefully and tell me where the MW relation is.

Then read my 3rd post again, specifically the first sentence of the paragraph that mentions MW.

Void stops Artillery from killing you, but it does not let you kill him. It's not a full-blown "counter". If you want to kill him you still need your gap closers and PKs and whatnot and at that point Void doesn't do anything. Items that stop him from killing you is helpful, but be careful to distinguish between what helps you win the game and what helps you lose a little slower.

Void does not allow you to play around Flint any more than it allows you to play around any physical carry. I have no idea what you are thinking, Flint is countered less by Void than most other physical attackers in the game since his ultimate goes through. And Void still does not help you kill Flint, if you want to kill him you still need your gap closers and PKs and whatnot and at that point Void doesn't do anything. Items that stop him from killing you is helpful, but be careful to distinguish between what helps you win the game and what helps you lose a little slower.

Artillery is not healthy for the game and it's better he stay useless than be a good hero (c.f. Nitro), because - surprise! - scaling physical damage from 2k range is never going to be balanced. Flint is on the edge of being unhealthy as well.

I don't think you addressed my argument about PK setting a fundamental range. And if you want to say things like "you sound like you lost to Artillery/Flint and are mad", I'll flip it around and say "you sound like you pick Artillery/Flint a lot and are mad". Which, should it be true, would make you quite hypocrite.

/shrug.

I agree with this one... people should learn the difference between "counter" and "decent against". 

Otherwise you could be 5 levels lower in avarage than enemy team and have 150 gpm, buy void and say that you countered them, which isn't true 😄

Circe counters Sandwraith, but void doesn't counter Artillery, it just slows down the outcome. Same regarding Flint.

Everyone has a different perception and opinion, both reflect on the rank ofc. That's why somebody is rank 3 garena, and somebody is hardstuck gold 4 after hundreds of games.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello all,

I have removed a couple of posts from this topic, as they were derailing the content in here.
Please feel free to post content that sticks to the topic at hand.

Best regards,
Stormeren

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/4/2021 at 3:38 AM, w3wstarboy said:

Active Void to evade LRM and then pebbles jump in your face. For a seconds later, you will thought "i'm better use my teammates as meat shield rather than buying void"

Activate Void to evade LRM -> Mortar Shot lands on you -> still can't PK.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Artillery is fine & got his range significantly nerfed. He should be okay for the time being.

The thing is, I actually agree with Sorais this time - spells are instrinsically balanced by their cast ranges. It's difficult to remove an item that's already been in the game & people are having fun with them though, and reworking them is equally as difficult. I can only compromise with Jade Spire by adjusting the current numerical values of it, but I haven't really hard complaints about it except from you.

Within reason, it is fine to extend the cast range of spells. It's a matter of finding the sweet spot - it's possible 250 is a tad much, but I don't even know if I want to deploy a nerf for the item or not (there hasn't been many complaints).

Edited by ElementUser
Link to post
Share on other sites

After further consideration, I've decided to make Jade Spire less polarizing as I do 100% understand how important cast range is & that they are balanced relative to every other spell in the game for a myriad of good reasons.

 

It will be in the next hotfix patch.

 

Overall, cast ranges are a thing we will consider rebalancing/revamping overall & is something on the longer term radar of things to do. Thanks for the feedback!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont see Jade Spire having any problem. If it's OP, many people will complain it. but it's not

For most of the heroes, some basic item Is required before you have luxury to buy jade spire. For example. Ws with portal key, Blacksmith with SoTM/PK, thunder bringer with spellsunder/spellshard. Many people can even think table of command is better than jade spire
Jade spire alone is not too strong, and the number of heroes who can use it is limited

Edited by w3wstarboy
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...