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Very limited early game item choices


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Like the tittle says, i dont know how long has this being going on since i havent been all that active in the game but currently there is very few options from early game items like minor totems and +3 stats items to transition into other items you will use later on. Is this intended?

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15 hours ago, GiveUpBra said:

Like the tittle says, i dont know how long has this being going on since i havent been all that active in the game but currently there is very few options from early game items like minor totems and +3 stats items to transition into other items you will use later on. Is this intended?

Imo it's been this way since very early in this game's history when hatchet + buckler became really strong and so if you're melee there's no more point going 2x +3 primary stat items, 2x totems, and 2x regen anymore. Hatchet has since gotten buffed so if you're a ranged farmer, you all but need to pick it up as well. And since the inception of Zamos Orb, 90% of support heroes will start with it.

I don't like how rigid this all is, but I appreciate some efforts made to try and diversify early starting builds e.g. Lunar Tear/Golden Apple etc. What I'd like to see is a nerf to Hatchet for both melee/ranged heroes e.g. +15 damage only for melee and +10 damage to ranged. This makes the damage output more comparable to the +6 dmg you could still get by going 2x +3 primary attribute stat items, but still more damage than they'd provide since Hatchet doesn't give stats and can't be built up (with exception of cleaver).

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I guess I rarely play carries, so my item-choices aren't that limited. As for supports, there are actually a lot of options.
Orb of Zamos is usually a safe pickup in many games, but if you're a better support than me, you might choose to rather pickup other items since they are better. However that's highly skill and preference dependent. I like to have at least a little bit of gold as support and not do any last hits, so I almost always go for Zamos if I have a hard-carry on my side.
Only exceptions being if it's likely that I have to roam because of a trilane or if we're not getting creep kills anyways.

With the new Apple (etc) items, there are also considerations like "do I have to heal fast", "do I need instant mana", will a health pot likely be interupted?
And of course also: Do I need a lane ward, do I need rev-wards, do I need dust?

So there are actually a lot of options there for supports. On the other end, if you're a meele and play versus ranged, you definitely need the shield. No way around that. Loggers depends on if you're farming or not. On heroes like behe, even if I'm on a dual lane, I choose to not pick it up since even with it, I don't get reasonably more gpm so I rather get chalice faster.
And for mid, you also have to consider what you pick up - if you need stats, boots or if you keep that gold to get an earlier bottle.

Of course there are also always the decisions for early boots to keep up or escape and a power supply against certain heroes.

So I don't fully understand your issue in general. In detail, I could agree that a couple of items are a bit too good to skip in many cases, namely: Shield and Loggers. As for the Orb Of Somaz, I think the risk-reward in "always picking it up" is not too far off. If you pick it up as support and have to roam or switch to a trilane, you effectively wasted that gold completely. And especially in those cases, that means multiple minutes of gold income for a support!

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1 hour ago, Manu311 said:

I guess I rarely play carries, so my item-choices aren't that limited. As for supports, there are actually a lot of options.
Orb of Zamos is usually a safe pickup in many games, but if you're a better support than me, you might choose to rather pickup other items since they are better. However that's highly skill and preference dependent. I like to have at least a little bit of gold as support and not do any last hits, so I almost always go for Zamos if I have a hard-carry on my side.
Only exceptions being if it's likely that I have to roam because of a trilane or if we're not getting creep kills anyways.

With the new Apple (etc) items, there are also considerations like "do I have to heal fast", "do I need instant mana", will a health pot likely be interupted?
And of course also: Do I need a lane ward, do I need rev-wards, do I need dust?

So there are actually a lot of options there for supports. On the other end, if you're a meele and play versus ranged, you definitely need the shield. No way around that. Loggers depends on if you're farming or not. On heroes like behe, even if I'm on a dual lane, I choose to not pick it up since even with it, I don't get reasonably more gpm so I rather get chalice faster.
And for mid, you also have to consider what you pick up - if you need stats, boots or if you keep that gold to get an earlier bottle.

Of course there are also always the decisions for early boots to keep up or escape and a power supply against certain heroes.

So I don't fully understand your issue in general. In detail, I could agree that a couple of items are a bit too good to skip in many cases, namely: Shield and Loggers. As for the Orb Of Somaz, I think the risk-reward in "always picking it up" is not too far off. If you pick it up as support and have to roam or switch to a trilane, you effectively wasted that gold completely. And especially in those cases, that means multiple minutes of gold income for a support!

I rarely play supports and always start with Zamos (for lack of knowledge) so I won't disagree with your points there.

But I play mid often followed by carry, and you've hit at the core of the problem: Hatchet + Shield, but mostly Hatchet, are quintessential items and too strong for what they do. Let's look at some of the most common variations of a melee mid hero starting build in Gold-Legendary TMM: 1) Generic = Hatchet + Shield + blights (pot/totems optional), 2) Bottle rush = Hatchet + blights/pot, 3) Maximal last-hitting = Hatchet + 3-4x totems + blights (even between these builds, there's a huge bias towards a particular one). Notice how they all utilize Hatchet? That's because of how ridiculously strong it is - giving +30 extra damage to creeps on melee heroes, and it really limits the variability of starting items for melee farmers. Sure you can argue you can have different builds utilizing Hatchet, but I argue this isn't meaningful variability since you're still just "rounding off" Hatchet, which is too good to pass up, instead of going by a wholly different strategic approach to starting builds, e.g. a stat-maximizing build where you go totems + primary attribute items or a defensive build where you go Shield + totems + regen. There is simply no risk to picking up a Hatchet as melee, and even for ranged it's still too low of a risk since +12 damage is no joke and you can still throw it at creeps.

As I've pointed out before, some solutions would be to nerf Hatchet to more reasonable damage ranges e.g. +15 for melee/ +9 for ranged, and to buff Shield (back to 250 g and 75% chance to block 20 damage from creeps and heroes at minimum) so you have more healthy competition between 1) greedy builds where you build around a hatchet to 2) defensive builds where you build around a shield and 3) stats/bottle-rush builds where you orient around stat items. Currently, the "greed build" is simply far too strong, the "defensive build" isn't as good as it used to be due to nerfs to Shield, and "stats build" has been left in the dust for a decade now just because of how little it does compared to the aforementioned two builds. Again though, I will reiterate this is primarily to add starting item variability to midlaners and carries, and to a lesser extent sui/offlane farmers.

 

 

Edited by AgentZer0
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56 minutes ago, AgentZer0 said:

I rarely play supports and always start with Zamos (for lack of knowledge) so I won't disagree with your points there.

But I play mid often followed by carry, and you've hit at the core of the problem: Hatchet + Shield, but mostly Hatchet, are quintessential items and too strong for what they do. Let's look at some of the most common variations of a melee mid hero starting build in Gold-Legendary TMM: 1) Generic = Hatchet + Shield + blights (pot/totems optional), 2) Bottle rush = Hatchet + blights/pot, 3) Maximal last-hitting = Hatchet + 3-4x totems + blights (even between these builds, there's a huge bias towards a particular one). Notice how they all utilize Hatchet? That's because of how ridiculously strong it is - giving +30 extra damage to creeps on melee heroes, and it really limits the variability of starting items for melee farmers. Sure you can argue you can have different builds utilizing Hatchet, but I argue this isn't meaningful variability since you're still just "rounding off" Hatchet, which is too good to pass up, instead of going by a wholly different strategic approach to starting builds, e.g. a stat-maximizing build where you go totems + primary attribute items or a defensive build where you go Shield + totems + regen. There is simply no risk to picking up a Hatchet as melee, and even for ranged it's still too low of a risk since +12 damage is no joke and you can still throw it at creeps.

As I've pointed out before, some solutions would be to nerf Hatchet to more reasonable damage ranges e.g. +15 for melee/ +9 for ranged, and to buff Shield (back to 250 g and 75% chance to block 20 damage from creeps and heroes at minimum) so you have more healthy competition between 1) greedy builds where you build around a hatchet to 2) defensive builds where you build around a shield and 3) stats/bottle-rush builds where you orient around stat items. Currently, the "greed build" is simply far too strong, the "defensive build" isn't as good as it used to be due to nerfs to Shield, and "stats build" has been left in the dust for a decade now just because of how little it does compared to the aforementioned two builds. Again though, I will reiterate this is primarily to add starting item variability to midlaners and carries, and to a lesser extent sui/offlane farmers.

 

 

You're behind the times.

 

https://hon.gamepedia.com/Logger's_Hatchet

 

It only gives +18/8 now to melee/ranged units.

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Posted (edited)

Il put an easy example, Bubbles or Int ganker mid, so far the only early items that you can pick that you wont have to sell late would be mark of the novice (+3 int) if you are going for a chalice wich usually its not required since you will have bottle and an intelligence hero wich will regenerate mana faster and the other choice would be +2 all stats item plus minor totem (+1 to all stats) to build later Soul Trap wich is hardly a must item. You could also go for a 200 mana battery (or whatever name it has now) wich is not good since it doesnt provide any early stats for better lasthitting. So far it feels like hatchet is still mandatory and the rest if you aint building any of the items i already mentioned is whatever. At least a couple of patches ago you could got for early mana battery wich also gave a couple of stats combined with hatched, now you cant even do that.

Edited by GiveUpBra
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I agree with the Iimited options of minor totems. at Ieast make manabattery upgrade use 2 minor totems.

 

Or make chaIice +3stat item, 2totems, scarab and recipe.

Edited by Froschbein
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Adding to the chorus of +1 Minor Totem buildups, I'd like to suggest Healing Ornament having its recipe removed in factor of more minor totems as part of its build up (it's another early-game laning item that competes with Soulscream Ring/Power Supply/Iron Shield and imo giving it more stats makes it more viable to compete with those other options).

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On 3/20/2021 at 3:07 PM, Froschbein said:

I agree with the Iimited options of minor totems. at Ieast make manabattery upgrade use 2 minor totems.

 

Or make chaIice +3stat item, 2totems, scarab and recipe.

Yes right now i dont even get minor totems at the start anymore because it does not build into anything i want later on

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