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(BR Server) This is starting to become a serious issue for more skilled players


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Disclaimer: This topic is meant for the latin community currently playing on BR servers as their sole option.

Hello, fellow players.

Some of you will say I am just crying too much about this, and I may be, but when you are constantly getting shot into 30 minutes queues, there is a problem and it must be solved. The issue is simple: At some point, BR/LAT players will take very long to find a game (or will not find one at all) based on their current MMR. On average, the BR/LAT community hangs around the 1550-1650 MMR, with higher variances towards even lower brackets than higher brackets. We are already thinned as we are, but right now, if this continues, a small portion of the players (The more skilled ones) will not be able to find games anymore.

I have several accounts. Most of them are hanging around 1700-1750. I stopped using the highest rated accounts because it is just not worth it to wait on Q for a game. I would spend more time on Q than actually playing. The 1700 accounts can still find games, at often times it takes longer, but it is usually fine. However, I am being constantly paired with players that, truth be told, are not on my level, and I will eventually go up again. I already have an account at 1841 MMR, and it does not find games anymore unless I play on USE realm which has been really laggy lately for BR/LAT players. We used to play with 150 ping, now the minimum we get is 200 ping. Compared to how used we got to the BR server, USE is not manageable no longer.

We are very happy to have received our own server to play at, but it was only a matter of time before problems started to happen.

"But you can purchase status resets for this!"

I can't. A single status reset is costing 2500 gold coins. I would have to spend 50$ which translates into 275 my currency, and trust me, this is VERY costy. Enough to make it worthier to simply abandon the game.

I am not the only one suffering from this problem, others are too. We are few, but we are some of the best players in the BR/LAT scenery and I am pretty sure it would be a huge loss for HoN if we just stopped playing because we cannot find matches no longer and the price on a status reset ou sub account is just too much for us.

 

HELP US, FROSTBURN! We need to think a solution for this together, we cannot be obliged to pay everytime we are not able to find matches due to going higher and higher.

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You have to understand that other games with small regions have this issue too, as you can probably see, I play overwatch ( check my profile pic ) and when I que on AU servers at a measly 2900 rating, I basically cannot get a game anymore, so I'm resorted to playing smurf accounts, or play on other regions.

 

And yeah, I'll be honest, it upsets me, I complain about it alot, and infact I was discussing this with my friend yesterday because I feel like I'm being held back, but at the end of the day I know that this is just the way it is, and not much can be done about it.


In overwatch, If you sit in a que that is absolutely crazy like 25 min, sometimes it puts you on a US or SA server, but often this is out of the blue and your own team and you are caught off guard and I wish I could turn that off, this is how blizzard has addressed it and I don't like it.

 

And that is a much bigger game too, but the thing is even if all regions where boosted, say HoN got 5x more popular, you would still have the same issue anyway and be capped at a certain point, while the other regions would be inflated, like, it is what it is.

 

This is just the way it is man, its like this in EVERY GAME EVER, your only hope is yes, to play on other regions once you reach that rank, we're open to suggestions but you haven't given us any in this post.

 

My best suggestion is that you just make a new account, not a sub - this is what I do in other games.

Edited by HyperXewl
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I play on EU server, and I've met the same problem you are describing. I'm a really dedicated player, and I am not kidding when I say this - I once waited 6 hours in a queue for a game. It threw me off queue every 30 minutes due to a timeout of the queue, so I kept re-queueing every 30 minutes until I reached the 6 hour mark. 

You have to understand, the less players in a queue - the longer are the queue times. I chose to queue between 4 AM until 10 AM looking for a game, and this is the result I had. Most players in EU play between ~11:00 AM - 02:00 AM. If you try to look for a game outside of those time zone brackets, and you are in a high MMR group, you might not find a game until it reaches the rather "popular" time when most people are online.

The methods I've found to keep my motivation up are either queue in "popular" times corresponding to your selected region, or keep playing in lower brackets and help players around you get better and reach higher MMR brackets (this way you will have more skilled players to play/compete with, thus reducing the queue times).

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I kinda have a couple of ideas how this could be circumvented, but they will probably be either ignored or are too much effort to implement. So I'll only put them here very briefly:

1. Force-Split groups of high rated players - as in, if they group-queue they might endup in different teams (but the same game)
2. Remove the rating-grouping above a treshold per server. Just ensure that both teams are somewhat balanced, but allow 2000 mmr players to play with 1500 mmr players if there are few players above that rating (1500) online. But it would require a couple additional things. Like the high rated players having to loose mmr, if they loose

Both should improve the situation. The first option would only negatively impact those players that have the initial problem, so I guess no one looses - at least if we make it an option. The second option will also impact worse rated players, but as long as the high rated players don't grief ("I don't loose any rating, so I just go jungle 24/7") and both teams are comparable in strength, that's nothing compared to high rated players just stomping low rated players all day on smurf accounts.

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For me and im sure a lot of people aswell br servers have made a huge difference, i no longer have to play US servers with 190-250 ping, i can understand that this may be an issue for you but if you are so unhappy why dont u just queue in the same servers you were playing before they added the br servers?

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5 hours ago, GiveUpBra said:

For me and im sure a lot of people aswell br servers have made a huge difference, i no longer have to play US servers with 190-250 ping, i can understand that this may be an issue for you but if you are so unhappy why dont u just queue in the same servers you were playing before they added the br servers?

You should read at least the initial post before posting ;-):

On 2/26/2021 at 11:50 AM, Wishmaster` said:

[...] and it does not find games anymore unless I play on USE realm which has been really laggy lately for BR/LAT players. We used to play with 150 ping, now the minimum we get is 200 ping. Compared to how used we got to the BR server, USE is not manageable no longer.

 

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It's relatively simple to resolve this but it's a mixed blessing with some issues. 
Let people play on their main accounts, let them match up with players lower than them but in a fair way so that the total MMR is about equal.

Can Frostburn reply to why this hasn't been done yet?  Are the negatives really worse than the positives?
So many smurfs I talk to nowdays, incl friends of mine say they smurf more because the waiting times rather than to pwn newbs at this point. I dont even report people anymore who deliberately lose 6+ games because I can feel their pain to an extent. 

 

And this is on EU servers. 

@HyperXewl @EU etc 

Edited by Ondis
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46 minutes ago, Ondis said:

It's relatively simple to resolve this but it's a mixed blessing with some issues. 
Let people play on their main accounts, let them match up with players lower than them but in a fair way so that the total MMR is about equal.

Can Frostburn reply to why this hasn't been done yet?  Are the negatives really worse than the positives?
So many smurfs I talk to nowdays, incl friends of mine say they smurf more because the waiting times rather than to pwn newbs at this point. I dont even report people anymore who deliberately lose 6+ games because I can feel their pain to an extent. 

 

And this is on EU servers. 

@HyperXewl @EU etc 

You would think other games would do that if it was so "relatively simple" as you said.

Long story short - that is not how MMR works. Here's a relatively simple explanation:

 

1700 + 1500 + 1500 in terms of MMR is not equal to 1600 + 1600 + 1500. The difference between different "brackets" of MMR (let's say they were separated by 100 MMR) is more than the number suggests, so it is not linear. Even if we somehow account for this - where do we draw the line? Do you think 1900 + 4*1500 is equal to 5*1600? How about 5*1700? Still no? Okay, how about 5*1750? Sounds good right? Well in reality it's not, the mentalities in different brackets are just way too different such that one team will always have a pretty clear advantage over the other, whether it be the high MMR player carrying the lower ones, or whether the coordination/general skill level of the more well-balanced team compared to the lopsided team proves to be better. Is it even possible to account for these edge cases? Likely, but even HoN's MMR tiers and their meanings (relative to each other) change dynamically over time, especially as the player base changes & the state HoN is in right now.

 

MMR is simply a measure & the current system is as close to the legacy system as possible - which we know works. Whenever we tried to change it in the past, it just never resolved the problems, so it was reverted to something that works.

 

The only thing that helps resolve the root of this issue is fixing account value in HoN (to incentivize players playing on their main accounts). Even then - for paid games (like in Overwatch) or Dota2 (Steam account) or League of Legends (limited hero pool) with a much higher player population that don't have these account value issues, you still encounter the same issue raised by the OP as HyperXewl said. If you are that good in your region, you'll run into this problem no matter what if there aren't enough people that are close enough to your skill level. That's just how these games work - you need enough players around your skill level to resolve the issue, and who are playing at around the same time as you are.

Edited by ElementUser
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So a couple of points on this:

§1. The reality is 1900's are already playing with 1500's but without any compensation to even the team out and yet they still sometimes lose games.

 

2. It's true that in this game as carries scale so does the the heroes capacity so if you have a 1900 carry with 4 x 1500s then the 1600's will suffer as their 1600 carry will get less benefit from their progression compared to the 1900 carry. If the 1900 played a hardcore support It would be a toss up between  having all 1600's in my team and wanting the 1900.  (Unless that 1900 was tryhard acting the captain of the team as well).


3. This  is easily remedied, as its already being done manually in every custom game by having equal distribution of the high levels. So if a person within a certain high bracket is waiting in line to play they will be matched against an other team with an other person in that same bracket. 


Meaning that 2 1900's can queuing at the same time and even if they are the only 1900's queuing at this time they can still get a game and they will be equally distributed between the teams with 1 each per team. 

 

4. As smurfing, ever more in the form unintentional, forced smurfing, is becoming common due to the split servers and low players I don't think that having people of "uneven" skill playing against each other is a too big of a downgrade. We all already experience it, the only difference now is that high levels would experience it slightly more often in off-hours rather than be forced to go on their alt accounts/ ruin games to make alt accounts and play then - which would improve overall match quality and let new players learn from good players without being completely stomped as is the case now when people simply smurf. 

5. Obviously, as it already is to a degree, this system would be staggered and within 30 seconds or 1 minute the system would look for players only from their own rank at first.  If you want to go further you can even let people have a choice "play with people in my rank only" or "play with anyone, as long as distribution of MMR is even." 

That way those that want to wait can wait while those that don't want to don't have to.
 

Edited by Ondis
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Pointless and irrelevant just pushes the issue further to do it just once. Though I wouldn't mind a reset every couple of months I guess, which helps keep the extremes of MMR down a bit. 

Edited by Ondis
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I think the formula @ElementUser described about MMR sum not being equal in high and low tiers etc makes sense ofc, however I see a couple of issues with that:

a) Like someone already mentioned, people are already playing with 1800+ in 1500~ brackets as they are smurfing so it would be the same having four 1500MMR and one 1900 in the team than having having five 1500MMR and one being a 1900 smurf.
b) Unfortunately smurfing brings down MMR economy, as they have many accounts reaching up to 1800+ and then they create a new one an so on, which is a problem for players that are actually in their brackets. In real life is like rich people gets even richer by taking advantage of the poor. I'm always up to face an smurf though, have beaten them a lot of times which brings me satisfaction bc I'm a casual player, but obviously they've win the most of times.  
c) The player base is not big enough so we should be clever on how to implement a fix instead of just saying 'this is the way it is', is the way right now but I'm sure we can fix it @HyperXewl I'm sure you have a couple of ideas in mind to solve it 😄


The following suggestions might be controversial but given the current limitations I think that these could potentially work:

1. Queue 1900+ with lower ranks. As they are smurfing already it is the same thing if you queue them up together. 

INITIAL DRAFT ON HOW TO MAKE THIS WORK:
-If one team gets high bracket players, the other one must have the same amount as well. I would say you could have up to 2 high bracket players on each side mixed with lower MMR players. 
-The higher MMR players will act as 'mentors' for the lower MMR players, suggestions on how to implement a 'mentor - mentee' are welcome as resources are limited but there's a lot of space for improvement here, like having them suggest the roles to the other lower players, some anti-toxicity and pro-communication systems, etc. 
-The high MMR player obviously will not win the same amount of MMR as the lower players. Instead high MMR players can get other type of rewards like increased experienced, silver coins or event gold coins, i.e.: 

*1 High with 4 low MMR:*
Winner team:
Gives the high MMR player +1 or max of 2 MMR with 5gc and x2 silver coins and xp. Low MRR players receives normal MMR and silver rewards.

*Loser team:*
High MMR players loose -1 or max of 2 MMR. They win x2 silver coins only. 


*PROS:* 
-You will partially solve the MMR economy issue in lower bracket. 
-You will solve the issues with high MMR players not finding games to play.
-You will encourage all team members to play as a team to win.
-This will help solving account value issues (partially).

*CONS:*
-High MMR players will complain about playing with people that are not at their level, but come on... You are already smurfing how could you complain about this anyways?
-You are not here to teach anybody how to play? Then don't, just play for the rewards that's fine too, what we want is to have you playing. 


*Pending considerations:*
-How to successfully distribute the high and low MMR players. 
-How to implement the mentor-mentee mechanic
-Other that I can't think right now but I'm sure there are many. 


2. Give an option for all players to allow them to queue with mixed MMR players,

INITIAL DRAFT ON HOW TO MAKE THIS WORK:
Add a checkmark or something in the UI that ignores MMR differences. This will be subjected to special rules like:

-Each team will get the same amount of players in brackets, i.e.: 2 legendaries, 1 diamond, 2 silver. 
-You won't win the same amount of MMR as you would do in a game on your actual tier, however other rewards may apply like gc and extra silver coins and xp for winner team with a fixed +2MMR for winners and -2MMR for the team that lost. Another idea would be to add some sort of missions/objectives like old war effort and win avatars or something else. 
-Same rewards would apply for all players disregarding their bracket. 

*PROS:*
-Faster queue times
-You will solve the issues with high MMR players not finding games to play.
-This will help solving account value issues (partially).
-Without the war effort-like systems, would be the easiest, fastest potential solution. 

*CONS:*
-High MMR players will complain about playing with people that are not at their level, but again you are already smurfing.
-Implementing a war effort-like systems would require a lot of resources. 
-People would have to decide playing for low MMR or rewards. 


3. Major cloud vendors offer low latency fiber connections across the world with their own submarine cables. They even offer complete solutions for games. This ofc is more expensive and other things should be taken into consideration like if the game would run with low ping in different regions. I won't go deep in this as this is the one that would require more money, which we don't have lol. 

4. Add checkmarks which you can select the amount of players you want to play with. i.e. minimum of 3 players and checkmarks for 3-players, 4-players, 5-players. The queue will auto-decide based on the current available players. Won't go on details here, is simple with lots of cons and pros, but at least it will need a minimum of 6 high ranked players instead of 10. Just saying. 

Anyways, I hope the above ideas help to address some of the issues. I can think in the amount of cons that might be encountered in the road and people not liking the suggestions, but I hope it could be an start to find a way to fix some of the most current impacting issues. 

 

Thanks for reading!

Edited by marveh
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Awesome post, great crystalization of some of the basic concepts I had too. And yeah. As per my avatar, lol. I kinda enjoy fighting smurfs too when Im in a good mood. The problem is the uneven balance is so extreme then. A system like this would help balance it out. 

I don't know if they even need to be limited in their rewards of mmr if they are split up the way described but it's not too important I think so I don't really care. People just want to play on off-hours and stuff. 

Edited by Ondis
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In the end, it is the logical consequence of the introduction of this server. NA playerbase split up. For now I guess you have to decide yourself whether you rather want long queue times or tick both servers and playing with high ping until there is a better solution..

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On 2/28/2021 at 4:18 PM, ElementUser said:

You would think other games would do that if it was so "relatively simple" as you said.

Long story short - that is not how MMR works. Here's a relatively simple explanation:

 

1700 + 1500 + 1500 in terms of MMR is not equal to 1600 + 1600 + 1500. The difference between different "brackets" of MMR (let's say they were separated by 100 MMR) is more than the number suggests, so it is not linear. Even if we somehow account for this - where do we draw the line? Do you think 1900 + 4*1500 is equal to 5*1600? How about 5*1700? Still no? Okay, how about 5*1750? Sounds good right? Well in reality it's not, the mentalities in different brackets are just way too different such that one team will always have a pretty clear advantage over the other, whether it be the high MMR player carrying the lower ones, or whether the coordination/general skill level of the more well-balanced team compared to the lopsided team proves to be better. Is it even possible to account for these edge cases? Likely, but even HoN's MMR tiers and their meanings (relative to each other) change dynamically over time, especially as the player base changes & the state HoN is in right now.

 

MMR is simply a measure & the current system is as close to the legacy system as possible - which we know works. Whenever we tried to change it in the past, it just never resolved the problems, so it was reverted to something that works.

 

The only thing that helps resolve the root of this issue is fixing account value in HoN (to incentivize players playing on their main accounts). Even then - for paid games (like in Overwatch) or Dota2 (Steam account) or League of Legends (limited hero pool) with a much higher player population that don't have these account value issues, you still encounter the same issue raised by the OP as HyperXewl said. If you are that good in your region, you'll run into this problem no matter what if there aren't enough people that are close enough to your skill level. That's just how these games work - you need enough players around your skill level to resolve the issue, and who are playing at around the same time as you are.

The way Valve handles this with CS:GO is that if want to play with friends you have a MMR-Range to queue up with them within which all accounts have to be from each other. Unless you have a full group of 5, in which case you can queue across ALL ranks however the queue will aim for the highest rank - 20% of disparity as average opponent rank.
So to translate that into HoN ranks for example, if you have 1400 MMR, 1500 MMR, two times 1800 MMR and then 1900 MMR as highest rank on your team, your average MMR would be 1650. But instead of queueing you into 1650 teams, because 1650s can't compete with 1900s no matter how much you drop that die), the game totals your MMR up to 8400 TMMR, then divides it by the amount of players on your team (5) which leads to 1680 MMR average. They now take your 1900 MMR (highest player) minus your average TMMR (1680) which is 220 disparity, halves that and adds it back to your TMMR (1680 + [220/2=110]) and you have 1790 as final queue MMR.
That way queues would be more balanced in an overall manner across brackets with the exception of individual true skill (basically assuming everyone is playing on their main).

In CS:GO it would look something like this: MG2 + DMG + LEM + Supreme + Global = average skill rank of LE and but queue rank of LEM/Supreme
(Ranks in order excluding bracket packs like g1, g2 and the likes: Silver, Gold, Master Guardian (MG/DMG), Eagle (LE/LEM), Supreme, Global

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I need to agree with the topic.. right now iam waiting for a 27min Q on BR server. But the problem is, i rlly dont know why the ping on USE server grew up a LOT! I always usually to play with 170-180 ping. Now its 230+, wtf? My internet is the same. the server location is the same, why the ping grew up for the whole BR? 

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1 hour ago, stealernoob said:

scared? come 2 v 1, take this brazilian pro with you! me is pro

You must be quite a lone soul if that's how you treat people you've never met.
Take it back a step son and behave like a decent human being, there is no place for any additional toxicity in this community, already too much of it being present. No need to further poison it on the forums.

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Sadly player population is low which is why it's already hard to find a game to begin with. And finding a game is nearly IMPOSSIBLE if you are high MMR (1700+ is when I start seeing long queue times). I like the idea where they should just queue high MMR people with low MMR people, and balance the gain/loss from the match, at least this way people get a match and hopefully the noobs learn to play better from observing high MMR play styles :). If you're playing on a 1700+ MMR account, only way you will find a game fast is by queuing with a buddy who's account is at 1500-1600 MMR. 

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