Jump to content

Why not make wards free?


Recommended Posts

Lets say wards are suddenly free! Yes, that means they cost 0 gold! Let the supports rejoice! But what consequences does this present us? How does it affect Hon and is it a good or bad thing?

Possible consequences:

  • Ranked games are no longer are plagued by lack of vision. If wards are free most players will use them.(especially low mmr matches)

  • Support heroes no longer need to worry about keeping gold stashed away for wards.

  • Gold no longer affects the vision of the team. Now proper vision is dependent on the experience of the player placing the wards.

  • Destroys the long lasting tradition of "supports buy wards" Whether this is good or bad I am not sure. Nonetheless, if wards are free no one has excuses about not picking them up anymore.

  • More gold for everyone to utilize. This could lead to both faster or longer games depending on the hero lineup.

Please share your thoughts. 

NOTE I am not talking about removing the cooldown on wards! I am trying to have an intelligent conversation abou observer wards costing no gold.

Edited by zsimeone
Link to post
Share on other sites

People are more likely to grief/place them suboptimally because they are free.

 

By having any kind of cost, it at least imposes a psychological mindset that they shouldn't be wasted.

 

It also affects the game's starting item builds & makes wards too strong during the laning phase if there is no cost to getting them.

 

  

7 minutes ago, zsimeone said:

How does it affect Dota and is it a good or bad thing?

Are you sure you're playing the right game?

Edited by ElementUser
Link to post
Share on other sites

I always liked this idea.

Yes, if there is a team limit to wards, then griefers will troll and place them all.

But how about make them player limited, each 2 max and refresh 1 after a period of time.

Maybe even a limit to wards placed simultaneously in early game to prevent wards being too strong.

 

Just speculating here.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, mernie said:

I always liked this idea.

Yes, if there is a team limit to wards, then griefers will troll and place them all.

But how about make them player limited, each 2 max and refresh 1 after a period of time.

Maybe even a limit to wards placed simultaneously in early game to prevent wards being too strong.

 

Just speculating here.

Because that restricts with flexibility of their placements.

 

You would literally have to use League of Legend's ward system if you want free wards in a balanced manner if you do it per player. It won't work in our game unless wards get nerfed like in League of Legends.

 

___

 

Now, I know Dota2 implemented free wards for the entire team - though I don't particularly feel the player base would welcome this change. I actually don't know how Dota2 players feel about the ward changes either.

Edited by ElementUser
Link to post
Share on other sites

I had the same idea of free wards, but as I have experienced in another MOBA (I already edited the original post) in the long run the results are satisfactory. Let's see.

Quote

People are more likely to grief/place them suboptimally because they are free.

By having any kind of cost, it at least imposes a psychological mindset that they shouldn't be wasted.

Currently worth gold and people do it, the point is to encourage its correct use and to be more venerable with the players who play the role of support. Trolls will always exist.

 

Quote

It also affects the game's starting item builds & makes wards too strong during the laning phase if there is no cost to getting them.

the advantage will be for both teams
 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, if we were to seriously consider this going into the game, I'd do a mass player poll rather than just rely on anecdotal/emotional supporting arguments. Not saying that yours are bad, but something like this does have the potential to change the game by quite a bit.


Dota2 doing it first is a good metric, but I don't have access or have metrics on whether that was a positively received change or not.

Edited by ElementUser
Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I mean, if we were to seriously consider this going into the game, I'd do a mass player poll rather than just rely on anecdotal/emotional supporting arguments. Not saying that yours are bad, but something like this does have the potential to change the game by quite a bit.

In my experience (I've been playing MOBA games since 2010  HON, Dota2), and this change has a very positive impact and is not only anecdotal/emotional, it is good to implement improvements that have given a good results in other mobas (like dota2 which is the closest to hon)

Quote

Dota2 doing it first is a good metric, but I don't have access or have metrics on whether that was a positively received change or not.

This change was implemented in  mid 2019 and remains to this day.

Edited by zsimeone
Link to post
Share on other sites

First context: I'm usually playing short support, so I ward a lot. But I haven't played DotA 2 or Lol.

Wards really only cost 50 gold unless you get countered. I rarely have problems with paying them. However I have other problems:
1. I can't place them on a different lane without leaving my carry alone
2. I can't buy them because they are out of stock - sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad places

While the first point might be improved slightly, I have doubts about that.
If the allies are bad, they will happily buy the wards and place them where they help them slighly. Like mid buying both wards, one for top and one for bottom rune. So imho it would make my 2nd problem way bigger.
If the allies are good, they don't care for the 50-100 gold they invest and the change doesn't affect them at all. They loose way more money than that by leaving the farming lane for 20 seconds to ward.

So imo it doesn't make a difference for good players and it make things worse for bad players. Of course it helps my money as a support, but I personally think I prefer the the gold-cost and the refusal to ward of bad players ?.

 

Let me suggest a different approach which might be better for vision and provide more fun (numbers are placeholders):

1. Increase gold-returned (if not countered) by wards of sight to 75g
2. Decrease gold-cost of rev-wards drastically to 50g
3. Decrease cooldown of Wards of Sight drastically

That would introduce a lot more of counter-warding (which I personally find way more expensive and less rewarding than normal wards) while also allowing more wards of sight which are nearly free if they aren't countered.
In addition it would counter suicide-invis heroes, which imho is a good thing ;-).

Edited by manu311
Added different approach
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I am very afraid of the harm this change could cause.

At a turning point of a game a teammate abused all 6 rev wards to block the own creep spots. Though reported nothing happened.

Regarding the policy of not watching single tickets against single players due to personal shortage it would enable griefers to do it for free.

However as someone who played a lot of support I would deeply appreciate the move. I already had big games in which I placed around 20 wards. 2k already could be a void or something else to at least delay my heros death.

As I read in an old guide: wards are for everyone and thus should be bought and placed by every single hero on the team. Making them free would forward that strongly.

At the end of the day I am endorsing the move.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ElementUser said:

People are more likely to grief/place them suboptimally because they are free.

 

By having any kind of cost, it at least imposes a psychological mindset that they shouldn't be wasted.

Even if Wards are free in Dota, the mid players do NOT buy wards, they DEMAND the hard support to "buy" it and give it to the mid instead. Like old times XD

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, RUS_AGENT007 said:

Even if Wards are free in Dota, the mid players do NOT buy wards, they DEMAND the hard support to "buy" it and give it to the mid instead. Like old times XD

Is anything else behind this behaviour than something that reminds me of a narcissistic personality disorder?

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Falk1 said:

Is anything else behind this behaviour than something that reminds me of a narcissistic personality disorder?

I Guess they dont Read patch notes and mb not knowing if they are free or "im mid fick you"

Link to post
Share on other sites

Dota 2 player base is way bigger than us, We cant know if this change will bring joy or even more grief and chaos. And if we have lets say 2% bans atm, for sure we cant afford raising this number ?
On the reasons why to do it,  they are correct, but still im leaning torwards Manus post above. I like the approach he suggested ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, doctornik said:

Dota 2 player base is way bigger than us, We cant know if this change will bring joy or even more grief and chaos. And if we have lets say 2% bans atm, for sure we cant afford raising this number ?
On the reasons why to do it,  they are correct, but still im leaning torwards Manus post above. I like the approach he suggested ?

I see your point not being able to predict the outcome because the player base is smaller than of Dota, though I have to disaggree on the ban percentage.

Lets say I have to wait 10 minutes for a game because 10% of the players are banned but in just 1% of the games griefing would be present. I would LOVE that. There is a saying here "Good things need time." In this case I put quality over quantity. There is no point in playing a game you can't enjoy. 

Maybe a stepwise approach could be done? Like decreasing the costs and maybe implementing other stuff manu suggested. If it's well received lower the costs more and so on.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets keep in mind that DotA2 is maintained by Valve and therefor has a massive staff GM pool to react to reports in time. And people do NOT want to get banned on a Steamaccount level!

In HoN this is hardly reproducable with the amount of ressources that are in play, especially compared to the rather limited playerbase.

I wouldn't mind seing wards start off at 130 gold a piece and slowly cost less per Ward purchased by the same player (local discount, -10 up until they only cost 80 or something).
It would discourage wasting early wards as they would become even more of a luxury item but encourage midgame warding to benefit from the benefits (fuck my english) into lategame.

Would in my oppinion make more sense with how the rest of the game is currently designed.

Would also push Ophelia's Pact more into peoples periphery as especially on lower brackets people seem to not even realise it exists. Or they forget inbetween matches.

As a support I rather start with pact and then get a ward after 40 seconds, than to start with a ward and then get a pact. simply because of the general benefits of pact when already including the first ward to it's quests. and the 700 gold on hardsupports are always worth it, if you have a team that is in heavy need of supplements. or get the stats if your laneup allows you to supply yourself with pulls and gank money.

In any case, in my oppinion just ebcause it worked in one game doesn't mean it works in a similar game (directed at the people here, not EU as I am sure he already considered this long before anyone else, given his experience).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think if we immediately assume that a positive change is going to be used to grief, we've already lost the war, the game is done for. Sure, free wards are easier to grief but it's just as easy for me to sell my boots or whatever and buy out all the available wards for the next 10 minutes anyways.

If it's still the same as when I was a GM, item purchases are included in the chat log so it's fairly quick to pull up when someone buys out all the wards in the shop, but I don't think this would be much of an issue at all. If anything, it actually makes it harder to grief the wards.. and in a way, ward griefing has very little effect on the game because those wards hadn't been purchased anyways, usually in a game where no one had planned on purchasing them - the grief is about the message it sends and less about the actual damage it causes.

How does it make griefing harder? In DotA, when I want to buy up wards as a support I often find they're already cleaned out and being effectively used by my teammates, because they're free. On the flip side this would mean anyone looking to grief by buying out the wards probably wouldn't have any available to waste. I'm certain that the team on that game put a lot of thought into it, and I've had nothing but good experiences with it, as primarily a support/roamer player. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, grandmont said:

I think if we immediately assume that a positive change is going to be used to grief, we've already lost the war, the game is done for. Sure, free wards are easier to grief but it's just as easy for me to sell my boots or whatever and buy out all the available wards for the next 10 minutes anyways.

If it's still the same as when I was a GM, item purchases are included in the chat log so it's fairly quick to pull up when someone buys out all the wards in the shop, but I don't think this would be much of an issue at all. If anything, it actually makes it harder to grief the wards.. and in a way, ward griefing has very little effect on the game because those wards hadn't been purchased anyways, usually in a game where no one had planned on purchasing them - the grief is about the message it sends and less about the actual damage it causes.

How does it make griefing harder? In DotA, when I want to buy up wards as a support I often find they're already cleaned out and being effectively used by my teammates, because they're free. On the flip side this would mean anyone looking to grief by buying out the wards probably wouldn't have any available to waste. I'm certain that the team on that game put a lot of thought into it, and I've had nothing but good experiences with it, as primarily a support/roamer player. 

I've to agree on the first point. Sadly that's where we are in my opinion.

To the second point, I've to disagree. They can be very well abused by blocking the creep spots as i mentioned before, extremly harmful if the momentum has changed and you need that farm BADLY. Since single reports never reach a GMs screen and a lot of HoN players have turned masochistic by not reporting if it comes to griefing teammates, at the moment it doesn't matter if the buying process is kept in the chat.

However I strongly agree on your last point.

Edited by Falk1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't like the idea of an absolutely free benefit, that can be negated only with a cost of something.

On 5/1/2020 at 4:59 PM, zsimeone said:

Ranked games are no longer are plagued by lack of vision. If wards are free most players will use them.(especially low mmr matches)

People usually don't buy wards because of other reasons (especially low mmr matches).

On 5/1/2020 at 4:59 PM, zsimeone said:

Support heroes no longer need to worry about keeping gold stashed away for wards.

Support is the only role that doesn't worry about this.

On 5/1/2020 at 4:59 PM, zsimeone said:

Gold no longer affects the vision of the team.

On 5/1/2020 at 4:59 PM, zsimeone said:

Destroys the long lasting tradition of "supports buy wards" Whether this is good or bad I am not sure. Nonetheless, if wards are free no one has excuses about not picking them up anymore.

Gold is not affecting the vision of the team, it's affecting the ability to afford benefits, including additional vision. Having no additional vision is just lack of advantage, it's disadvantageous only when enemies have it.
Now you create advantage by placing wards, but then you will create DISadvantage by NOT placing them. Making wards free will make them an unnecessary commitment instead of advantage. You will have to have wards placed, because it'll be stupid not to.

And that's what you are trying to say - "wards should be more accessable". Because it's stupid not to have them every game, right? But I strongly disagree. Wards should not be more accessable, but players should get better.

One team can perform much better than another just because of warding strategy, which consists of things like splitting cost, timing cooldowns, cunning placement, dewarding etc. And I believe making wards free is dumbing down that strategy.

On 5/1/2020 at 4:59 PM, zsimeone said:

Now proper vision is dependent on the experience of the player placing the wards.

It is dependent on the experience now as well. Though it became a lot harder to place a good ward with revelation through the fog.

On 5/1/2020 at 4:59 PM, zsimeone said:

More gold for everyone to utilize. This could lead to both faster or longer games depending on the hero lineup.

This will definitely lead to longer games. It's much harder to push against forever affordable inflated vision. Enemies cornered at base have smaller area to cover and can traverse through it much faster. Nightly split-push and backdoor strategies will be heavily nerfed, as well as pull-cut, distraction and switching lanes tactics. You will have to spend much more time dewarding everything before advancing, and it will actually cost you gold in most cases.

 

I have a better question @ElementUser. Why the hell are the wards cost you 5 mana? ?
Is this some kind of technical restriction I'm missing? Not many people even know about this.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, EngineerT said:

I have a better question @ElementUser. Why the hell are the wards cost you 5 mana? ?
Is this some kind of technical restriction I'm missing? Not many people even know about this.

Probably to not let couriers or other summons (booboo) place them without risking your life

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Im not a fat of dumbing down the game even further. Wards should be somthing you buy carefully and place carefully not somthing you just put all over the map for free.

It also makes it insanely easy for the carry to farm freely at anytime and make ganking nearly impossible without buying veiled rott

Edited by nutsy
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, nutsy said:

Im not a fat of dumbing down the game even further. Wards should be somthing you buy carefully and place carefully not somthing you just put all over the map for free.

I don't get why it dumbs the game down. As EngineerT pointed out, it could end up making the game harder not easier.

All over the map for free? Not at all. If cooldown and max amount stay, I suspect it will be close to same as before. Maybe some more rev wards early.

20 hours ago, nutsy said:

It also makes it insanely easy for the carry to farm freely at anytime and make ganking nearly impossible without buying veiled rott

I have to disagree. Since restrictions to the maximum amount of wards a ganker has plenty of entries to sneak in, not to mention PK/Blinks/Teleports.

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Falk1 said:

As EngineerT pointed out, it could end up making the game harder not easier.

That wasn't my point. The game will not "get harder" whatever that means, it'll be more frustrating, because pushing will get harder, because defending team will have even more advantage, because warding does not cost you anything while dewarding does, because suddenly the risk became higher for the same reward, games became longer etc.

Edited by EngineerT
Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, EngineerT said:

That wasn't my point. The game will not "get harder" whatever that means, it'll be more frustrating, because pushing will get harder, because defending team will have even more advantage, because warding does not cost you anything while dewarding does, because suddenly the risk became higher for the same reward, games became longer etc.

That pretty much sums up to harder for me.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If people want to troll with wards, they troll regardless of their cost.

Just remove wards all together. That would make it fair to both sides.
Leave just the rev wards.

Another topic is, dust (200g) costs too much. As a supporter I'd rather buy 2 rev wards than dust. Cooldown is a big letdown.

Edited by madclay
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, madclay said:

If people want to troll with wards, they troll regardless of their cost.

Just remove wards all together. That would make it fair to both sides.
Leave just the rev wards.

Another topic is, dust (200g) costs too much. As a supporter I'd rather buy 2 rev wards than dust. Cooldown is a big letdown.

Agreed.
Removing wards all together? **** no. There is nothing better than winning because your enemy can't value the use of wards.

That 200g will be worth every single dead Scout, Night Hound, Revenant or any other Hero with a shroud.

Link to post
Share on other sites
×
×
  • Create New...