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4.9.1 - Patch Discussion


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On 2/17/2021 at 7:24 AM, Diabetis said:

Ophelia is one of the most broken/insane heroes... hardest hero in the game is one of the best. That should never be the case.

Ophelia got stuff semi-irrelevant to her, nerfed. Hero is still way too strong because of the fact that there is almost no counter play to somebody running at your lane with 3 big creeps with auras, stuns/slows .. etc.

I firmly believe that everybody can play Ophelia nowadays because of how strong of a hero she is. So you can't any longer say that the hero is great when played by few specific players. 

So yeah, I really hope something gets to be done regarding Ophelia in next patches. Something more than what has already been done. Maybe something indirect like - just remove creep auras. They were added for cosmetic reasons anyway...

Yeah nerf ophelia so bad..

Winning rate and picking rate are dropping now 

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Its ironic that ophelia that is the most legit jungle hero are getting nerfed. First, its a relatively hard hero to play compared to heros such as draco, legio, wb, salo and para. And as pointed out above, she has a MUCH SMALLER window for making an impact on the game compared to the other jungle heros which scale pritty well, maybe not para so much but he is already a toxic hero that is banned in most games for that reason.

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I really don't like the changes to the void talisman and mana battery. 

I mean who knows by what parameters it's decided. 
Any argument can be made in any one direction. Yes the mana battery gave a good stat boost but it was split up between 3 attributes and had a terrible upgrade path, especially for heroes that are considered carries. What weighs heavier? I don't know man, I just felt it was a smooth transition before. Like you could go to a lane with its core components and upgrade into it if it was necessary/depending on who you face. Now it's jsut one extra slot to counter Armadon or something like this. Too situational. 

IMO the Void Talisman now becomes a pure escape mechanic item that you're afraid of putting on while in a fight where you stand your ground because you don't know if the lowered damage will mean you're more likely to die or not compared to not getting that + -5 negative armor but being hit by the physical damage. 

Also increased cost+downgraded stats on an item that has generally seen an increase in cost and nerfs ever since it was added is a bit lame in general. 
Just doesn't feel like a great item anymore becomes far more situation and geared towards supports.  

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On 2/10/2021 at 3:04 PM, Lunarios said:

I really liked and enjoyed the changes in this patch, except for one thing - Orb of Zamos / Grave Locket change.

I don't know how many people noticed this, but I support at least a quarter of my played games, and this change was quite huge for me personally.

I think I understand the underlying logic - trying to move the support away from passively leeching neutral creeps along with the main farmer - and into a more active playstyle, assisting and ganking lanes. But, I think the nerf was too heavy. I already struggle as a support to acquire gold, some supports are more lucky than others as they have farming mechanics (Rhapsody, Nymphora), so the problem is not very significant for them, but other supports such as Ichor or Succubus are in quite a difficult position right now in regards to attaining gold. I was using the Orb of Zamos / Grave Locket mechanic as a main source of gold income for those supports lacking in farming mechanics, as you were able to acquire ~300-400 gold from a fully stacked jungle, which now turned into ~50-100 gold. Before, I was buying Orb of Zamos and upgrading it into Grave Locket, but now I find myself buying Orb of Zamos and selling it after 20-30 minutes for the extra 150 gold, and I'd rather save the 500 gold used to upgrade it to Grave Locket to buy something else.

Aside from this matter I think everything else is perfect.


I explained the issues of this item and its impossibility to balance it properly without affecting the meta or making it useless long ago. (It needs to pay for itself in relative short time for your team not to get snowballed but in the long run it's an absolute beast no matter what).
And you're right on everything.

I didn't think of it much but it's the absolutely worst change possible but it's sadly the fault of the item and our own egos (people not wanting to support even with it, especially in lower brackets).


Now the support hero is conditioned even more to stay in lane. 


Before the item was introduce in the first place you had a lot more of a diverse meta and the possibility of a support to pick a wide variety of items at the start of the game.  From the initial bottle to the carry (which now is impossible due to its 650 cost) to boots for roaming and stacking to ring of teacher for mana support, etc.  
With the introduction of the item and now this change to it we're still stuck with buying the item but now leaving your lane to ward, stack, roam, gank, scout or anything else is now punished even more harshly even after you acquire some basic items after the Orb/Grave Locket.



I don't see much of a solution. The item is absolutely overpowered from any way you look at it (and thus absolutely necessary and bought in 95% cases by supports unless you plan to get a first blood) but this nerf just makes it worse as it conditions the player even more - the conditioning that the item creates being the terrible thing about it to begin with. 



_____

Bit of TLDR stuff: 

I have no idea how to do this well but this change should be reverted.
In the very long term pure supports should perhaps have more skills akin to Glacius and Empath global auras that (global or not) scale either with the heroes they support or as in the case of Glacius aura at least support other skills that scale with the heroes level and items. Blitz is a good example with his speed boost being a good addition that scales indirectly with any of the heroes capabilities that it's used on and it doesn't require gold to be effective. 

Other semi supports require gold because they need to get im position or lack escape mechanisms and perhaps this is part of the more systemic issue. 

To me it's fine that supports get less gold and I'd even remove the orb. But this would require supports to die less too IMO. They should all have some kind of escape mechanic or a trick up their sleeve and so while getting less gold they should also lose less gold and preferably always stay in the back lane. But that's a much more long term idea. 

Edited by Ondis
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I don't have any strong wills in regards to where I see this item, or any strong connection to me - in the end I just want to enjoy the game; and to enjoy the game I need certain items to have a certain feeling.

The current state of Orb of Zamos just pushes me to be more "greedy" and "selfish" in regards to gold. I find myself fighting with the main carry over the pull camps as I need the gold from the last hits from neutral creeps; I find myself going in for last-hits on kills if possible. I'd give them to the carry, but I really need the gold 🙂

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  • 1 month later...
On 2/18/2021 at 4:24 AM, Diabetis said:

Ophelia is one of the most broken/insane heroes... hardest hero in the game is one of the best. That should never be the case.

Ophelia got stuff semi-irrelevant to her, nerfed. Hero is still way too strong because of the fact that there is almost no counter play to somebody running at your lane with 3 big creeps with auras, stuns/slows .. etc.

I firmly believe that everybody can play Ophelia nowadays because of how strong of a hero she is. So you can't any longer say that the hero is great when played by few specific players. 

So yeah, I really hope something gets to be done regarding Ophelia in next patches. Something more than what has already been done. Maybe something indirect like - just remove creep auras. They were added for cosmetic reasons anyway...

If Ophelia is so good she wouldn't be at 45% win rate. I grant that she's hard to play, so her win rate is not reflective of her potential, but still - if she is broken she would be getting picked a lot more at high tier.

I agree the nerf to Command cooldown is semi-irrelevant, since it has almost no impact during a fight. It only matters when you are, e.g., trying to stack a camp to see what the next creep is before Commanding them. Which is annoying. Remember the various QoL fixes that have been applied in the past? If it weren't for the fact that it was just changed, this would qualify as a suitable QoL fix for Ophelia.

How to counter somebody running at your lane with 3 big creeps: remember by the time Ophelia hits level 7, it's around 6+ minutes in (and this is only if she has literally zero participation). At that point the laning phase is over, and you can/should expect ganks. Plus she actually needs to get creeps to gank with. If she never gets a Skeleton, then she's not really able to gank unless her teammates can provide the first stun (or unless opponents are hideously out of position).

One final caveat: we are playing on different maps. I don't know what it's like on the international client, and Ophelia is likely one of the heroes most affected by the different maps.

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6 hours ago, Sorais said:

If Ophelia is so good she wouldn't be at 45% win rate. I grant that she's hard to play, so her win rate is not reflective of her potential, but still - if she is broken she would be getting picked a lot more at high tier.

I agree the nerf to Command cooldown is semi-irrelevant, since it has almost no impact during a fight. It only matters when you are, e.g., trying to stack a camp to see what the next creep is before Commanding them. Which is annoying. Remember the various QoL fixes that have been applied in the past? If it weren't for the fact that it was just changed, this would qualify as a suitable QoL fix for Ophelia.

How to counter somebody running at your lane with 3 big creeps: remember by the time Ophelia hits level 7, it's around 6+ minutes in (and this is only if she has literally zero participation). At that point the laning phase is over, and you can/should expect ganks. Plus she actually needs to get creeps to gank with. If she never gets a Skeleton, then she's not really able to gank unless her teammates can provide the first stun (or unless opponents are hideously out of position).

One final caveat: we are playing on different maps. I don't know what it's like on the international client, and Ophelia is likely one of the heroes most affected by the different maps.

do you even play hon, or just trolling? She was number one or in top 3 heroes in terms of winrate for like 6 months? Or even more... currently she sits at 52% while I'm typing this. She is either picked or banned in most of high games. And in plenty of tourney games.

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6 hours ago, Sorais said:

One final caveat: we are playing on different maps. I don't know what it's like on the international client, and Ophelia is likely one of the heroes most affected by the different maps.

So why do you type in HoN international - section... if you play on Garena you have your own section to type in. Instead of talking nonsense!

https://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/index.php?/forum/42-heroes-of-newerth-sea/

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On 3/21/2021 at 11:58 PM, Diabetis said:

So why do you type in HoN international - section... if you play on Garena you have your own section to type in. Instead of talking nonsense!

https://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/index.php?/forum/42-heroes-of-newerth-sea/

You realize 1) nobody reads the Garena forum 2) Garena isn't balanced separately, so to get any changes done one needs to post on the international forums and 3) if you're on SEA you can't even post on the Garena forum because it's IP blocked, right?

Also lol Ophelia 52% win rate. I'd be surprised if her win rate is anywhere near that level in the upper brackets on Garena, because she's not good. Playable, but not good.

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10 hours ago, Sorais said:

You realize 1) nobody reads the Garena forum 2) Garena isn't balanced separately, so to get any changes done one needs to post on the international forums and 3) if you're on SEA you can't even post on the Garena forum because it's IP blocked, right?

Also lol Ophelia 52% win rate. I'd be surprised if her win rate is anywhere near that level in the upper brackets on Garena, because she's not good. Playable, but not good.

Couldn't care less about garena

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On 3/21/2021 at 9:47 PM, abandon_lane said:

Is the probability for casting abilities on hit with blacksmith 15% for each ability or is it 15% to cast any ability and after that you roll a specific one?

15% for each ability. You could proc more than 1 ability in 1 hit

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On 3/23/2021 at 11:11 AM, Diabetis said:

Couldn't care less about garena

Considering that Garena has significantly more players than international (and therefore most probably higher revenue), you might want to care.

Edited by Sorais
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4 hours ago, Sorais said:

Considering that Garena has significantly more players than international (and therefore most probably higher revenue), you might want to care.

nah, they could shut down tomorrow, I don't give a damn. So stop posting garena stuff in hon international section.

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8 hours ago, Diabetis said:

nah, they could shut down tomorrow, I don't give a damn. So stop posting garena stuff in hon international section.

Yeah except you don't get a say in any of these matters.

Stop talking down to people just because ElementUser occasionally asks for your opinion dude. Funny how you frequently used to accuse me of this yet here you are. Yes this does not belong into the Int forum part but still, mind the way you talk and act. You are not in charge of anything anywhere.

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We are playing the same game. Because Garena forums doesn't work properly or you can say it already dead. No suprise if ppl from SEA come here to post their thought.
But somehow, they misunderstand that S2/EU can do something about SEA sever problem. Old map, GM, staff, price, etc... They're not something SEA player can argue anymore.

Ophella problem on the old map and new map is complete separated right now. It's better to folllow EU final decision. You dont want Garena to take a lead on balance the game on SEA sever again, right?

Edited by w3_StarBoy

HoN SEA Player

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I personally prefer underpowered heroes on one map instead of overpowered heroes on other map so nerf on Ophelia is good decision to make.

Something comes to mind regarding certain neutral creep namely Antlore Necromancer that only exists in SEA HoN, perhaps adjusting that neutral could solve Ophelia's nerf problem on SEA region without interfere Int HoN. Or just adjust the map so it is easier to make a jungle rotation but unfortunately I couldn't suggest any adjustment.

Speaking about Antlore Necromancer, its ability is quite bonkers already IMO. Summoning 10 minions at one time isn't something I could look down upon.

Edited by datfizh
Fix typo

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

 

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Adrenaline having 100% slow resistance in Death's Halo, is that supposed to also cancel Devourer's ult Devour? It just happened but I get "Failure" trying to download the game replay.

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22 minutes ago, THREEEYES said:

Adrenaline having 100% slow resistance in Death's Halo, is that supposed to also cancel Devourer's ult Devour? It just happened but I get "Failure" trying to download the game replay.

That ult is a channeled stun... so no... it is more likely devo canceld it by mistake or got stunned/silenced as he ulted

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