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4.9.1 - Patch Discussion


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Shadowblade is my favorite hero, but I feel like these buffs are too much. I like that the penalty finally got removed but now the E is over buffed. Keep in my, his E already does 80% of your int as extra damage with every hit, so the stun's (and maybe even the extra damage on the first hit) feels a bit much. 

I feel like the stun should be changed to a mini-stun, like Flints (W), just so Shadowblade has the option to cancel a tp or a channeling spell (like many other carries) but not hold the enemy hero stunned for too long. The extra damage on the first hit can stay cause it's not THAT much (or tweak it to be 10/20/30/40 damage), but the stun duration definitely needs a nerf.

Edited by TemplarZ
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3 hours ago, TemplarZ said:

Shadowblade is my favorite hero, but I feel like these buffs are too much. I like that the penalty finally got removed but now the E is over buffed. Keep in my, his E already does 80% of your int as extra damage with every hit, so the stun's (and maybe even the extra damage on the first hit) feels a bit much. 

I feel like the stun should be changed to a mini-stun, like Flints (W), just so Shadowblade has the option to cancel a tp or a channeling spell (like many other carries) but not hold the enemy hero stunned for too long. The extra damage on the first hit can stay cause it's not THAT much (or tweak it to be 10/20/30/40 damage), but the stun duration definitely needs a nerf.

If I may add, the mana cost on E should be the same as Shadowblade's other form because his E form is equally strong as his other form now.

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Shadowblade. I think the stun is fine now, a good improvement to give him a little more flexibility to join fights early/mid game. The damage feels abit high, especially in laning phase where he now can harass even better than most sups which is totally wrong in my opinion. Just compare it to a revenant for example, which is designed to do high harass damage.

 

Edit: I also did not share the desire to give MK and Nomad a survivability buff. I have not seen how it plays out in the games yet, but in general, MK and Nomad with so much damage, utilities and get away has to be squishy..

 

I want to see nerf on shellshock in the future. Make roll interuptable with at least non target stunss.

Edited by Mezi
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I don't care that a hero does damage, but i care when that hero does damage during his own stun.

SB is tanky, can do damage and is generally flexible, that is good, so the stun has to go or just be a small stun. Any carry hero that has a pattern of bushwacking somebody, stunning and one shot-ing them during that stun is cancerous and gets out of hand with any slight item advantage, particularly out of invis, particularly shroud, particularly even without high cooldown.

SB shouldn't have a solid stun, perhaps a silence + slow.

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I really liked and enjoyed the changes in this patch, except for one thing - Orb of Zamos / Grave Locket change.

I don't know how many people noticed this, but I support at least a quarter of my played games, and this change was quite huge for me personally.

I think I understand the underlying logic - trying to move the support away from passively leeching neutral creeps along with the main farmer - and into a more active playstyle, assisting and ganking lanes. But, I think the nerf was too heavy. I already struggle as a support to acquire gold, some supports are more lucky than others as they have farming mechanics (Rhapsody, Nymphora), so the problem is not very significant for them, but other supports such as Ichor or Succubus are in quite a difficult position right now in regards to attaining gold. I was using the Orb of Zamos / Grave Locket mechanic as a main source of gold income for those supports lacking in farming mechanics, as you were able to acquire ~300-400 gold from a fully stacked jungle, which now turned into ~50-100 gold. Before, I was buying Orb of Zamos and upgrading it into Grave Locket, but now I find myself buying Orb of Zamos and selling it after 20-30 minutes for the extra 150 gold, and I'd rather save the 500 gold used to upgrade it to Grave Locket to buy something else.

Aside from this matter I think everything else is perfect.

Edited by Lunarios
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6 hours ago, Lunarios said:

I really liked and enjoyed the changes in this patch, except for one thing - Orb of Zamos / Grave Locket change.

I don't know how many people noticed this, but I support at least a quarter of my played games, and this change was quite huge for me personally.

I think I understand the underlying logic - trying to move the support away from passively leeching neutral creeps along with the main farmer - and into a more active playstyle, assisting and ganking lanes. But, I think the nerf was too heavy. I already struggle as a support to acquire gold, some supports are more lucky than others as they have farming mechanics (Rhapsody, Nymphora), so the problem is not very significant for them, but other supports such as Ichor or Succubus are in quite a difficult position right now in regards to attaining gold. I was using the Orb of Zamos / Grave Locket mechanic as a main source of gold income for those supports lacking in farming mechanics, as you were able to acquire ~300-400 gold from a fully stacked jungle, which now turned into ~50-100 gold. Before, I was buying Orb of Zamos and upgrading it into Grave Locket, but now I find myself buying Orb of Zamos and selling it after 20-30 minutes for the extra 150 gold, and I'd rather save the 500 gold used to upgrade it to Grave Locket to buy something else.

Aside from this matter I think everything else is perfect.

I'm interested to see how this nerf plays out first.... imo supports have been having a good time for a while with Zamos, Grave Locket buff, the sheer number of relatively cheap support items available, Tome of Elements, Ophelia's Pact, nerfs to carries/snowballing etc. I always found it annoying when as a mid player, with how XP gain works currently, you initiate a teamfight and die before your team annihilates the enemy - you end up levels behind your support player and it's lowkey embarassing to have to Tome to catch up :<

Edited by AgentZer0
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2 hours ago, AgentZer0 said:

nerfs to carries/snowballing etc.

Stop telling jokes man. Your comment does not add up. Its far more easy to play carry than ever before!

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4 hours ago, AgentZer0 said:

I'm interested to see how this nerf plays out first.... imo supports have been having a good time for a while with Zamos, Grave Locket buff, the sheer number of relatively cheap support items available, Tome of Elements, Ophelia's Pact, nerfs to carries/snowballing etc. I always found it annoying when as a mid player, with how XP gain works currently, you initiate a teamfight and die before your team annihilates the enemy - you end up levels behind your support player and it's lowkey embarassing to have to Tome to catch up :<

I see, well I'm specifically talking about the Gold aspect, not the Exp aspect, I mean personally I wouldn't even mind if the exp aspect would get nerfed as I do feel it is true what you have said regarding the EXP abundance in the game. It is just so painful to get gold as a support without a farming mechanic, and if you manage to die while you have banked up a sum of gold it is twice as painful to lose it. As a carry MQ my decision is "Hmm...do I get Symbol of Rage or Wingbow first?", as a support Ichor I'm like "OMG I GOT A RINGMAIL THANK THE LORD".

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3 hours ago, Mezi said:

Stop telling jokes man. Your comment does not add up. Its far more easy to play carry than ever before!

I disagree. It certainly is much easier to farm as a carry these days than back in pre-2017 since you no longer need to kill creeps outside of camps, jungle layout allows greater flexibility in rotations, creepwaves are smaller (so you need to be more precise with lasthits), and farming items are in even greater abundance: Tclaw, Hypercrown, Cleaver, Grimoire etc. 

That said, the current meta holds far more counterplay to carries from promotion of duo offlanes, a friendlier meta to supports, greater overall xp gains (making snowball more difficult), Spike Bolas etc. I mean the rationale behind all these changes makes sense since you don't want to devolve into 30-40 min farmfests and then flip a coin to see which side's 600gpm carry will win the game, which was the case for a lot of high TMM games in the days of sG, BMG etc. - but the point still remains that the current meta includes more hurdles to overcome for an effective carry.

56 minutes ago, Lunarios said:

I see, well I'm specifically talking about the Gold aspect, not the Exp aspect, I mean personally I wouldn't even mind if the exp aspect would get nerfed as I do feel it is true what you have said regarding the EXP abundance in the game. It is just so painful to get gold as a support without a farming mechanic, and if you manage to die while you have banked up a sum of gold it is twice as painful to lose it. As a carry MQ my decision is "Hmm...do I get Symbol of Rage or Wingbow first?", as a support Ichor I'm like "OMG I GOT A RINGMAIL THANK THE LORD".

Sure, that's a valid point. I wouldn't be opposed to a Zamos gold increase to 0.5-0.7x for jungle creeps paired with some adjustments to hero xp gains.

Edited by AgentZer0
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7 hours ago, AgentZer0 said:

you don't want to devolve into 30-40 min farmfests and then flip a coin to see which side's 600gpm carry will win the game

Simple. Give better reward for kills/assists. Then the game can stay a battleground and not a farmfest vs. neutrals. Everyone raging at this can go play a single player game, maybe even just play against bots.

You already have hero's such as Tarrot and Artillery which dont even need items to crush enemy by simply good position or "slow" entrance. For me it is ironic when hard carry/semi hard carry can stay 300gpm and only buy defesive items and still compete. Sad.

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41 minutes ago, Diabetis said:

And 2nd.... you really wanna be careful by giving more gold to kills and assists, you don't wanna turn the meta into a pubtrain.

Even tho I kinda agree with you that farm fest should be lowered a bit...

now is the solution to increase the bounty on kills/assists a good solution, or maybe decrease max stack number from 3 to 2 or perhaps just decrease the gold on creep kills... idk

I can understand your concern. But the bounty can also be scaled with game timer, to avoid crazy early pubtrain and still get away from the farm fest. Then carry heros would be forced to pickup more early mid game items to compete late game and a much more enjoyable gameplay with xp/gold/gear distributed more even lategame.

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Honestly, bounty gold from kill should basic on GPM, not kill streak. The bounty from kill streak should be reduce a bit.

Imo, it's not feeling good when someone get more than 1k gold from killing you when you are above 10x kill streak (bloodbath)

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1 hour ago, w3wstarboy said:

Honestly, bounty gold from kill should basic on GPM, not kill streak. The bounty from kill streak should be reduce a bit.

Imo, it's not feeling good when someone get more than 1k gold from killing you when you are above 10x kill streak (bloodbath)

I think it helps make games more interesting. Usually the team with someone on 10x kill streak is more likely than not to be dominating the game - giving whoever kills the guy 1k gold gives the losing team more of a chance for a comeback, not to mention whoever gets the kill can still be random since you'll likely need 3x or more people to kill someone on a Bloodbath (great if the 1k gold goes to your carry, maybe not so much if it goes to your support).

Edited by AgentZer0
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5 hours ago, w3wstarboy said:

Honestly, bounty gold from kill should basic on GPM, not kill streak. The bounty from kill streak should be reduce a bit.

Imo, it's not feeling good when someone get more than 1k gold from killing you when you are above 10x kill streak (bloodbath)

It's based on both.

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Not a fan of the changes to Ophelia. She wasn't especially good before, and she got worse. The window in which she's effective is already narrow, plus she's one of the literal worst heroes in the game come the late-game. Nerfing the cooldown on Command is especially annoying because the most important practical change is that she can no longer stack a camp, see what creeps are available, and decide if she wants to charm both of them.

How about changing Ophelia such that her ultimate impacts how good her creeps are? It'd give her some scaling and can simultaneously adjust how good she is early in the game.

And make Token last longer. 3 minutes is just dumb, especially if you aren't winning and only took Kongor because a won teamfight opened an opportunity.

Also /shrug at the different maps we play on.

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After 1 keeper skill was removed for 1.5 seconds of roots, it just became unplayable. SB make the stun given to creeps after the first attack, because the stun retains its property, too strong for him. You also need to fix the adrenaline a little

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On 2/17/2021 at 7:24 AM, Diabetis said:

Ophelia is one of the most broken/insane heroes... hardest hero in the game is one of the best. That should never be the case.

Ophelia got stuff semi-irrelevant to her, nerfed. Hero is still way too strong because of the fact that there is almost no counter play to somebody running at your lane with 3 big creeps with auras, stuns/slows .. etc.

I firmly believe that everybody can play Ophelia nowadays because of how strong of a hero she is. So you can't any longer say that the hero is great when played by few specific players. 

So yeah, I really hope something gets to be done regarding Ophelia in next patches. Something more than what has already been done. Maybe something indirect like - just remove creep auras. They were added for cosmetic reasons anyway...

Yeah nerf ophelia so bad..

Winning rate and picking rate are dropping now 

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Its ironic that ophelia that is the most legit jungle hero are getting nerfed. First, its a relatively hard hero to play compared to heros such as draco, legio, wb, salo and para. And as pointed out above, she has a MUCH SMALLER window for making an impact on the game compared to the other jungle heros which scale pritty well, maybe not para so much but he is already a toxic hero that is banned in most games for that reason.

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I really don't like the changes to the void talisman and mana battery. 

I mean who knows by what parameters it's decided. 
Any argument can be made in any one direction. Yes the mana battery gave a good stat boost but it was split up between 3 attributes and had a terrible upgrade path, especially for heroes that are considered carries. What weighs heavier? I don't know man, I just felt it was a smooth transition before. Like you could go to a lane with its core components and upgrade into it if it was necessary/depending on who you face. Now it's jsut one extra slot to counter Armadon or something like this. Too situational. 

IMO the Void Talisman now becomes a pure escape mechanic item that you're afraid of putting on while in a fight where you stand your ground because you don't know if the lowered damage will mean you're more likely to die or not compared to not getting that + -5 negative armor but being hit by the physical damage. 

Also increased cost+downgraded stats on an item that has generally seen an increase in cost and nerfs ever since it was added is a bit lame in general. 
Just doesn't feel like a great item anymore becomes far more situation and geared towards supports.  

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