Keeper vs Monarch

[CoBaYe 20]

Hi.

I feel like Keeper is and always was a pretty solid hero. Not strong, not weak, just fine.

The problem is, that Monarch pretty much makes Keeper a walking big pushing creep. If you counterpick Monarch for Keeper, it makes the hero completely worthless, because the factor of his ult vanishes, since Monarch can simply Ult to remove Keepers Ult immediatly.

I know, some Junglers got Counters to them (Tempest > Vindy, Parasite / Ophelia > Alch Bones, Warbeast / Wildsoul > Void Talisman etc).

But simply all the counters can be countered by Items (Tempest SH, Parasite / Oph Staff, WB / WS Harkons).

Keeper on the other hand has 0 counters to a Monarch. You can't change your ulti and Monarch will always remove it. I see no reason,  why Monarch should have this kind of benefit over a just 'solid' hero like Keeper.

So can we simply make Keepers Ult immune to Monarchs Ult? That it won't remove the Roots? That would remove this complete recking counterpick that shouldn't be in the game anyway.

[ElementUser 603]

That's kind of what Monarch specializes at.

 

You need to silence her, kill her, or your team has to force other actions to happen so that she can't just hold onto her R specifically to counter you. Or counter her at the picking phase.

Edited February 8 by ElementUser

[datfizh 27]

I assume the fundamental problem about Keeper vs Monarch is how dependent he is on ultimate. I think it's rather cheap to make Keeper ultimate unpurgable, even if it's only against Monarch ultimate.

Little off topic: I think Null Stone should be Vindicator item-counter for Tempest instead of Shrunken Head.

'_'

Anyway, I've proposed my suggestion regarding Keeper so he will be less reliant on ultimate. Click here if you are interested (of course it is supposed to be a safe link, or just check it in my signature).

[Mezi 0]

You say there is no items to counter monarc. Buy refresher, sheepstick, hellflower .. Or even last pick keeper? To complain on this is silly. You should rather complain on how jungle hero over perform compared to the effort it takes to play them.

 

edit: To me this illustrates how jungle players want to simplify everything to their advantage. Try to play against bots, same type of difficulty, you can have huge gold/xp advantage and feel like a BOSS.

Edited February 9 by Mezi

[Lunarios 31]

That's what Monarch is made for. It makes the game more sophisticated by creating "hard-counter" heroes to other heroes, that's the whole purpose of the banning phase (I think). It's much like Vindicator counters Tempest, Hellbringer counters Tempest, Adrenaline counters Doctor Repulsor, Deadwood counters STR-reliant heroes, Magebane vs Parallax/Oogie/DR etc.

I recommend to ban Monarch (and Electrician) on banning phase if you intend to pick KotF, to make your time easier in not having to counter-play against those heroes. Otherwise, you will have to deal with those said heroes in the game.

Interestingly, not every hero has a hard-counter, and not every hard-counter guarantees a victory.