Jump to content

Non-ranting thread about my take on HoN


Recommended Posts

Disclaimer: I know people don't care about me, many people have never heard my name before and so on. I am not trying to look important nor do I think I am important in any way shape or form. So I already know, that many people don't care.

The last week or so I have been pondering leaving the game for many, many reasons. A lot of smaller, insignificant reasons, and then some larger issues I feel people sometimes bring up but is never, never being taken seriously. I will use this thread to give you my feedback as someone who has played, not since Beta, but for about 11 years and someone who has played a lot. Like, a lot. 

The last few months I have begun taking the game more serious in terms of rank. I quickly rose from a stagnant 1500 to 1730 MMR, where I now sit between 1715 and 1730 depending on whether it's a good day or a bad day in terms of which games I get. I have enjoyed it. I enjoyed the feeling of reaching 1700 MMR, which to many may not seem like that high, but to me it was. I enjoyed getting games with professional players such as Fawh, Slaskedyret and probably some people it don't know due to account names. While increasing my rank I have tried to become more active in the Discord, so people would great me or, essentially, know my name. I have been nice to people, I have been searching for tips and tricks from better players to better my gameplay and understanding of the game. Those people have been super helpful and very kind along the way. I also got to collect almost the entire avatar collection, which has been a fun thing to enjoy in-game. Though, there have been a lot of problems not only in-game but also outside of the game, where I have felt like some staff members have taken the game less than serious and worse than that; taken me less than serious. Here are some things I want to address with this thread: 

The RAP-System: 
To me the system has been flawed for a while. And people keep mentioning it but it has not been changed or fixed. When you report someone literally no action is being taken. Action will only be taken if your "priority" is high. This is on the surface fine, but the priority part makes no sense. A few weeks ago I was banned for two weeks for telling someone he would get banned, that I was 100% sure, he would get banned. Stupid of me, sure. In those two weeks I wanted to still play so I created a number of new accounts on which I could play some games. Those accounts were brand new. They were not sub accounts. On one of those accounts my priority was as followed: 

Very Low (Non Corroborated result)
Very Low (Non Corroborated result)
Very Low (Open)

So here I didn't even get the chance to have a say. How does a brand new account have low priority and how can it be increased by a "Guilty" report if the reports aren't seen? Another account had the following:

High (Guilty)
Very Low (Non Corroborated result)
Very Low (Non Corroborated result)

So here, even with a Guilty report to start, my priority still didn't change. So, yeah, this simply just doesn't work and too many people walk free. The other day I had to report someone for warding all our jungle spawns in spite... Still came up Very Low (Non Corroborated result). 

You should have made it different from the start, or do it, and give everyone a second chance, give everyone high priority and then give people lower and lower priority the more "Innocent" results they get. That is NOT how it is... clearly. 

The Staff:

I am not and will not name any names here. At all. But there are problems. 
I have tried, on Discord, to contact staff members about Stat Manipulation issues and other 100% sure to be Guilty reports that I can't file in-game due to the points above. And every time I get the same answers, that I need to file reports in-game (which I did a few times per request, but still no action was taken) or in the RAP-portal. I was also asked if I was "sure in my findings" even after explaining to him/her what it was about. Us players need to be taken more seriously as though we were actually people. Too many times I have felt overlooked, irrelevant, stupid and like I was bothering someone deliberately. I've also been talked down to by another Staff member on Discord. I just don't understand how those staff members, as human beings, can be this unbothered by the community. I have shown no desire to do anything but help. This one is a bit more personal but I have a feelings other people have felt this way when talking to staff members. One of the most important things in a game of this size is to be friendly outside of the game and not alienate people. If all GM and SGMs were to be contacted via a support e-mail it would be different, but we speak to each other personally on the Discord General Chat, we are all just human beings. If Staff members start alienating players those players are less likely to play as much, less likely to feel good asking for help and then some monetary reasons as well. I think you should either remove the option to DM Staff on Discord or have them invest more time into the game. I know they are volunteering, but then you have the option to hire more Game Masters. A month ago I thought to myself that it could be fun and exciting to become a GM and I could never, ever turn someone down, if they had a request. Never. 

MMR-System (Ladder, Reset and Matchmaking)

This we are debating every day basically. The longer the season the more inflated people's rank will get. 
I have a sub account that is about 1600 MMR, and without trying to sound too condesceding, I feel it every day. Every day people surprise me with their skill level to the point where I think to myself that person should be 1400 not 1600. (We are talking low reaction time, no map awareness at all (like farming woods 5% hp for minutes with people missing on the map) and stuff like not watching the mini map for incoming team mates or wards). These things only happen because there has been no reset. And you keep insisting not to reset the season. 

Also since the new patch my games have look this way in terms of MMR difference: 

9 people below Diamond, 1 person below Gold.
3 people below Diamond
9 people below Diamond
8 people below Diamond
6 people below Diamond
4 people below Diamond
4 people above Diamond

(Those are all the games on my main account since the patch, not just some of them)
Yes, it is a small game, but not that small. And it didn't happen prior to the latest patch, so what gives? I find it hard to enjoy games, where I am 100 MMR higher than my team mates.

In summary I have just been finding it harder and harder to enjoy the game lately. There are too many disconnects in term of matchmaking. It's hard to communicate with 60% of the population in HoN, it's hard to enjoy people getting angry in seconds and it's hard to enjoy the lack of proper MMR difference and so on. I feel like there's been a disconnect between players and staff to a point where it feels like the staff is an unobtainable gathering of people who are so far above us in importance that it's almost "scary" to contact them with issues.

Make no mistake HoN is great, but there are too many problems. 

Thank you to SO MANY people for making me enjoy most of the last year or so of the game. People on Discord, people I've played with in-game, in-game names in remember and so on, it's been a blast but there are just too many problems for me to keep enjoying it.

And also: ElementUser you are doing a FANTASTIC job even though you will probably delete the thread. You are really the bread and butter of this game. You are kind, funny and you have taken some serious action when needed. You patience with people during server problems have been great!

I will probably still be around Twitch or lurking Discord, maybe play a game or two once every other week with people I know but the part of it for me, where I come home during the day to play 4 hours are definitely over. It's too stressful for me.

Remember, before you talk down to me in this thread if you can before it's gone, it's okay to disagree on things. I stated my opinions and you can state yours without calling people names and so on.

Have a great day and a great journey to high rank!

Link to post
Share on other sites

You need two people to report the person. If its just you and you dont have history of good reports then they will be ignored.

I have reported numerous people for stat manipulation in the RAP portal and they have all and I mean all been dealt with in a matter of hours. 

Edited by ScrubFactory
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, ScrubFactory said:

You need two people to report the person. If its just you and you dont have history of good reports then they will be ignored.

 

Do you feel like that's an effective way to deal with people? I talked to people on Discord about it and a staff member suggested that I put more effort into asking people in chat, all chat and post-game chat to report the person... to no effect. I don't have friends on my account and even if I had, why would they spend time reporting someone for me? They don't know if I am right and if I weren't it would hurt their priority as well. I assume your solo priority goes to low if you receive "innocent" back from a report.

Also, I mentioned that even from a new account my priority would be low. So history of good reports don't exist... soooo are all account "very low" priority to begin with and how is that effective... 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, ScrubFactory said:

You need two people to report the person. If its just you and you dont have history of good reports then they will be ignored.

I have reported numerous people for stat manipulation in the RAP portal and they have all and I mean all been dealt with in a matter of hours. 

can only confirm that, my reports almost always get handled with very rare exceptions where someone elses report is being used instead.

you should read up on that on the RAP subforum in here, it explains the entire system to you.

Adding to that, if Staff started to respond to everyones problems and take care of their supports, noone woulb be ever getting anywhere anymore.
so this got nothing to do with them not taking you serious, but wth them knowing how quickly this community escalates.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, `_support said:

Do you feel like that's an effective way to deal with people? I talked to people on Discord about it and a staff member suggested that I put more effort into asking people in chat, all chat and post-game chat to report the person... to no effect. I don't have friends on my account and even if I had, why would they spend time reporting someone for me? They don't know if I am right and if I weren't it would hurt their priority as well. I assume your solo priority goes to low if you receive "innocent" back from a report.

Also, I mentioned that even from a new account my priority would be low. So history of good reports don't exist... soooo are all account "very low" priority to begin with and how is that effective... 

it's an effective way to avoid GM wasting days

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MerryHONmas said:

it's an effective way to avoid GM wasting days

Definitely. But I was also not given a chance when I created numerous new account during a recent ban. So how would you suggest getting higher RAP priority? 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, MerryHONmas said:

Adding to that, if Staff started to respond to everyones problems and take care of their supports, noone woulb be ever getting anywhere anymore.
so this got nothing to do with them not taking you serious, but wth them knowing how quickly this community escalates.

Right, definitely. And it's a grey area for sure, but so many people don't get banned for things they should get banned for because of the system. So what's worth more? Getting all the guilty people banned or having less report but also a lot of guilty people not getting banned? 

EDIT: Every day when I or someone else says "I will report you" people don't care. They keep saying "I create new account" or "System doesn't work"... how is that functional in any way?

Edited by `_support
Link to post
Share on other sites

The root of the problem is HoN's account value when compared to other games (e.g. League of Legends & Heroes of the Storm requires you to buy heroes, Dota2 is linked to your Steam account). Fixing that would fix most of these issues, but unfortunately that also takes a lot of time and resources. We do have plans to address this, but the ETA looks to be in the moderate future (and not the near future).

Link to post
Share on other sites

One single game on a new acc does not make the priority higher. You need 10-15 successful reports to be eligible to solo report.

For your main account, you have created too many innocent reports. You need like 10% more guilty ones to solo report. Hundreds of people are capable of solo reporting and considering we receive ~500 daily reports,  I'd say the reporting system works fine. If someone is really griefing, multiple people tend to report the person. Might not be the case for all games but quite often.

Having 1 guilty report on a new acc won't prevent you from creating rage reports and waste GMs time. If we lower the thresholds, GMs will spend more time on innocent reports thus more actually guilty ones go unpunished.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, `_support said:

Definitely. But I was also not given a chance when I created numerous new account during a recent ban. So how would you suggest getting higher RAP priority? 

 

Ask a "friend" to also report the player and always add accurate description with timestamps.

Edited by ScrubFactory
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

Ask a "friend" to also report the player and always add accurate description with timestamps.

Why would a "friend" waste his time on that for me? Unless it's an IRL friend most people, when online in HoN, are busy playing... 

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, hegelsohn said:

 

Having 1 guilty report on a new acc won't prevent you from creating rage reports and waste GMs time. If we lower the thresholds, GMs will spend more time on innocent reports thus more actually guilty ones go unpunished.

Can you elaborate this for me? I might be misunderstanding.

How would more reports make guilty reports go unpunished? Couldn't we just hire more GMs or increase the amount of time spent volunteering? I'd assume some people have more than 5 hours a week to spend.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, `_support said:

Why would a "friend" waste his time on that for me? Unless it's an IRL friend most people, when online in HoN, are busy playing... 

Cause it also boosts his RAP karma and he might also be interested in solo reporting.

 

5 hours ago, `_support said:

Can you elaborate this for me? I might be misunderstanding.

How would more reports make guilty reports go unpunished? Couldn't we just hire more GMs or increase the amount of time spent volunteering? I'd assume some people have more than 5 hours a week to spend.

Lets say 6000 reports per week and a GM handles 30 (sure, some will handle more, but it's up to them). It would require 200 GMs to handle those tickets. Thats more than 3x the amount of GMs we currently have. We are recruiting actively.

Until the threshold is reached and we are capable of handling all reports, we can't change the system as we need to catch the maximum amount of guilty people (and that's what the current system is good at providing).

Link to post
Share on other sites

1. I am not aware of a single thread of feedback that has been deleted. Even if it's totally unreasonable and opinionated, they are never deleted and rarely closed (early). So there's no reason to be afraid that your thread will be deleted if you put that much effort into writing it.

2. What you describe as "should be 1400 instead of 1600" is probably not accurate. I've been playing since 2009, so I got an idea of skill to mmr relation I guess. Even before 4.0 there were few people below 1600 that had any map awareness, knew how to place wards or have other basic knowledge. The skill level of people at 1400 or below was quite something different.
I'm not saying that current balance is fine, but that argument is simply wrong.
Same is in principle true for your argument about longer seasons hurting balance. Actually it's the opposite. If you reset the season, games become unbalanced for a long time. The only way to fix the smurf-issue and the behavior-issue is by increasing the account-value. And I can't wait to see what EU got in store for this.

3. If you certainly care for the game and want to successfully report players, you don't need a true friend. Lookout for basically anyone who wants to improve their reporting-priority. Either make an agreement that you will help each others reports, or just double check his reports. Let him tell you whenever he believes someone is reportable - maybe you can even spectate him to see it in action, and just watch the replay after his game ends to verify that that target can be reported. After a few attempts you probably found someone reliable and you can boost each others priority to top level easily. It's not hard, it just requires a bit of patience and kinda doing GM-work.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Short input. Remember, people can play deadly serrious in 5 games, then the next 3 games, they play half drunk with a pizza in one hand and no ingame sound. This would not change their rating. I have seen diamond players play like you describe 1400s, its nothing you can do about this. It is of course anoying if you only try to grind rank and you lose mmr becuase some good player randomly has different kind of fun just when they enter your game. Its hard to avoid these situations without a larger player base and generally more money to the developers, to come up with some very attractive high ranking rewards.

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, hegelsohn said:

Cause it also boosts his RAP karma and he might also be interested in solo reporting.

 

 

Yeah or he can fear the report may be innocent? He can't see chat log or watch replay when I ask him to report. It goes both ways. 

 

20 hours ago, hegelsohn said:

Lets say 6000 reports per week and a GM handles 30 (sure, some will handle more, but it's up to them). It would require 200 GMs to handle those tickets. Thats more than 3x the amount of GMs we currently have. We are recruiting actively.

Until the threshold is reached and we are capable of handling all reports, we can't change the system as we need to catch the maximum amount of guilty people (and that's what the current system is good at providing).

Thanks for clarifying. 

Firstly 6000 sounds like a lot but fair. Secondly, a GM only handles 30 on average? That 10 minutes per report? Am I missing something about banning someone for chat abuse? Shouldn't take 10 minutes right? I might be wrong!

I agree that the current system might have a higher percentage of all report be guilty, that makes sense, but just as you say more guilty people go through,  if more reports come in; more guilty people's reports don't get seen because of the system. So it's a lose lose situation or what ever, right? 
 

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Manu311 said:

 

2. What you describe as "should be 1400 instead of 1600" is probably not accurate. I've been playing since 2009, so I got an idea of skill to mmr relation I guess. Even before 4.0 there were few people below 1600 that had any map awareness, knew how to place wards or have other basic knowledge. The skill level of people at 1400 or below was quite something different.
I'm not saying that current balance is fine, but that argument is simply wrong.
Same is in principle true for your argument about longer seasons hurting balance. Actually it's the opposite. If you reset the season, games become unbalanced for a long time. The only way to fix the smurf-issue and the behavior-issue is by increasing the account-value. And I can't wait to see what EU got in store for this.

It wasn't really an argument. Was just saying that these things happen in my game, because no season reset = eventually higher rank.

Also I hard disagree on the last two lines. If we reset the season you lose more MMR in the first six games. So let's say you are 1600, but barely, then new placements will get you lower in rating than before if you can't manage 50% win.

 

18 hours ago, Manu311 said:

3. If you certainly care for the game and want to successfully report players, you don't need a true friend. Lookout for basically anyone who wants to improve their reporting-priority. Either make an agreement that you will help each others reports, or just double check his reports. Let him tell you whenever he believes someone is reportable - maybe you can even spectate him to see it in action, and just watch the replay after his game ends to verify that that target can be reported. After a few attempts you probably found someone reliable and you can boost each others priority to top level easily. It's not hard, it just requires a bit of patience and kinda doing GM-work.

I think you make good points here. Never actually thought about spectating someone. I guess it only works if the person to be reported keeps doing something after I come spectate... 

Also I think you vastly overestimate how much people care about this game. I found a cool guy, when I was playing while banned, and he seemed really cool, he got upset when someone was abusing chat or otherwise and I was like "let's report this guy" maybe like 3-4 times during our 4-5 days of playing. All those times he didn't report. People just really, really don't care I guess. The game does have a reputation of "not working" when it comes to the RAP system and I hear it EVERY DAY. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well RAP system is awful. But it's the best possible system in the circumstances... Rest is basically more like a question of someone's mental state - than skill/rank per-se.

You can't expect to climb or to do well only if you play serious/to win every game... For example; I'm sure even 1600s are decent at last hitting nowadays, but years before... they struggled to press buttons on the keyboard. So you can say that game evolved in a way.

If you are really way above the rank you play in... you should be able to win some games that on paper look like a 99.99% loss, just with your own skill without the help of teamates.

And if you say "oh but I'm support player, it's harder for me"... that's kinda self-explanatory.

But in my opinion, like I said. Main motive for someone should be to play hon and try to win while also having fun - some kind of balance between the 2.

Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, `_support said:

It wasn't really an argument. Was just saying that these things happen in my game, because no season reset = eventually higher rank.

Also I hard disagree on the last two lines. If we reset the season you lose more MMR in the first six games. So let's say you are 1600, but barely, then new placements will get you lower in rating than before if you can't manage 50% win.

Imaging being bad - like really bad. Those people usually have friends they play with, usually also a few pretty good people (most people get better after time, so there's a chance they know at least one of them).
Now of course you want to learn and play with better people - have one of those friends play your first game with you and just support your kill streak. It's pretty easy to get an immortal at 1500 - which instantly boosts you beyond 1600. Even if you loose your remaining 5 games, you'll probably still be above 1600 even with just one win.

If you reset the season, you just boost the first 6 games to replace the entire history of games someone has and I highly doubt that 6 continuous games in a completely randomized rating system (everyone is reset after all) is better in estimating everyones skill than hundreds of games.

I could also "prove" it by my personal experience. I can just play hard-support all game, win 4 out of my first 6 games - maybe more if I got a decent carry. And I'll end up at lower silver ranks because I don't get any sprees.
If instead I just switch role to something that gets kill streaks, I probably only win 2 out of those 6 games, but I get an immortal in one of those and easily am at some gold rank.
I don't know how that estimates my rank better than the 500 games I played after being placed in silver which I mostly won since playing a decent support wins more games than just going for kill-stealing-scout or whatever.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, `_support said:

Yeah or he can fear the report may be innocent? He can't see chat log or watch replay when I ask him to report. It goes both ways. 

 

Thanks for clarifying. 

Firstly 6000 sounds like a lot but fair. Secondly, a GM only handles 30 on average? That 10 minutes per report? Am I missing something about banning someone for chat abuse? Shouldn't take 10 minutes right? I might be wrong!

I agree that the current system might have a higher percentage of all report be guilty, that makes sense, but just as you say more guilty people go through,  if more reports come in; more guilty people's reports don't get seen because of the system. So it's a lose lose situation or what ever, right? 
 

He can see the chatlog on https://hon-stats.herokuapp.com/

Also, he can simply watch the match in the game client by opening up the match id.

 

Most of the verbal abuse reports are automatically judged by an AI. GMs mostly handle griefing cases.

 

No, the majority of the reports are innocent. The numbers have been relatively stable over the past. The GM count is increasing. So it's more the other way around. More reports can get handled -> lower threshold for single reports.

Edited by hegelsohn
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/8/2021 at 9:02 AM, `_support said:

It's too stressful for me.

Go away and never look back. You didn't even complained about gameplay or balance, which are way more important than some 3rd party tool like discord or the RAP system which works silently. The point of a videogame is to have fun, and you are not having it. It has never happened to me with HoN, but sometimes I had to force myself to quit some games as I liked them but for one reason or another I was just not having fun anymore. If you stop playing but begin playing again some months later, you may even have some fun.

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Diabetis said:

Well RAP system is awful. But it's the best possible system in the circumstances... Rest is basically more like a question of someone's mental state - than skill/rank per-se.

You can't expect to climb or to do well only if you play serious/to win every game... For example; I'm sure even 1600s are decent at last hitting nowadays, but years before... they struggled to press buttons on the keyboard. So you can say that game evolved in a way.

If you are really way above the rank you play in... you should be able to win some games that on paper look like a 99.99% loss, just with your own skill without the help of teamates.

And if you say "oh but I'm support player, it's harder for me"... that's kinda self-explanatory.

But in my opinion, like I said. Main motive for someone should be to play hon and try to win while also having fun - some kind of balance between the 2.

Right and I don't feel like I am above my rank in any way. Maybe on sub accounts that didn't get good placements... 

I am also trying to have fun, trying to interact more with the players, laugh during laning phase and have fun but ultimately my goal is to gain rank. On sub accounts I've had plenty of fun because I don't expect anything of myself and my team mates. Usually I just play different  heroes and build fun items. But I do agree, you should definitely TRY to have fun. Doesn't always work due to the competitive nature of the game. You have fun until you are losing 😄

Link to post
Share on other sites
×
×
  • Create New...