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Frostburn and Dawnbringer


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I'd like to suggest a few changes on the following items. I think they are either currently underwhelming or a bit too strong in comparison to their other counterparts, for example, frostburn and dawnbringer are too weak compared to Geometers Bane and Frostwolf Skull (Mainly Geos). While I do undersand we can't buff frostburn and dawnbringer items too much (since you can still disband it, points for flexibility), I do encourage discussion over the fact that all the other items (Geo, FWS and Grimoire) have an active ability. I'll give you a brief description of what the items currently do and what I would do to slightly balance them so all 3 parts are equally viable:

==================================================================================================================================================

What the items currently do:

Icebrand (2200 gold)

  • +16 Strength
  • +10 Damage
  • -15% (-10% for ranged) Movement Speed on attack for 3 seconds

Firebrand (2200 gold)

  • +16 Agility
  • +15 Attack Speed
  • +8% Movement Speed

Lightbrand (2200 gold)

  • +16 Inteligence
  • +2.5 Mana Regen
  • +8 Magic Damage per second in 200 AoE for 3 seconds (max of 24 DpS)

===================================================================

Searing Light (4400 gold)

  • +16 Agility
  • +16 Inteligence
  • +10% Movement Speed
  • +20 Attack Speed
  • +3.5 Mana Regen
  • +12 Magic Damage per second in 200 AoE for 3 seconds on attack (max of 36 DpS)

Frozen Light (4400 gold)

  • +16 Strength
  • +16 Inteligence
  • +10 Damage
  • +3.5 Mana Regen
  • -25% (-15% for ranged) Movement Speed on attack for 3 seconds
  • +12 Magic Damage per second in 200 AoE for 3 seconds on attack (max of 36 DpS)

Frostburn (4400 gold)

  • +16 Strength
  • +16 Agility
  • +10 Damage
  • +10% Movement Speed
  • +20 Attack Speed
  • -25% (-15% for ranged) Movement Speed on attack for 3 seconds

====================================================================

Frostwolf Skull (5100 gold)

  • +26 Strength
  • +10 Agility
  • +10 Inteligence
  • +10 Damage
  • -35% (-20% for ranged) Movement Speed and -35 (-20) Attack Speed on attack for 3 seconds
  • Active: Ring of ice:
    • Duration: 4s
    • 100 Magic damage
    • -50% Attack Speed
    • -20% Movement Speed

Geometers Bane (5100 gold)

  • +10 Strength
  • +26 Agility
  • +10 Inteligence
  • +15 Attack Speed
  • +10% Movement Speed
  • Active: Spawning of Illusions
    • Dispells buffs and debuffs, disjoints projectiles
    • Spawns 2 Illusions
      • Illusions take 350% Damage and deal 33% Damage

Grimoire of Power (5100 gold)

  • +10 Strength
  • +10 Agility
  • +26 Inteligence
  • +10% Movement Speed
  • +20 Attack Speed
  • +3.5 Mana Regen
  • 30 Magic Damage per second in 200 AoE for 3 seconds on attack
  • 15% Magic Lifesteal (5% vs non-hero units)
  • 20% Reduced Cooldowns
  • Active: +35% Magic Lifesteal (+10% vs non-hero units) for 5 seconds

Dawnbringer (6600 gold)

  • +18 Strength
  • +18 Agility
  • +18 Inteligence
  • +15 Damage
  • -25% (-15% for ranged) Movement Speed on attack for 3 seconds
  • +12% Movement Speed
  • +25 Attack Speed
  • +4.5 Mana Regen
  • +16 Magic Damage per second in 200 AoE on attack for 3 seconds (max of 48 DpS)

==================================================================================================================================================

Suggested Changes:

Icebrand (2200 gold)

  • Increase Movement Speed reduction from -15% (-10% for ranged) to -20% (-15% for ranged)

Reason: Icebrand is an item that is just never picked first when going frostburn or even geometers/FWS, so I'm suggesting making it a bit stronger so it's actually usefull and not just a +16 str item

Lightbrand (2200 gold)

  • Searing effect:
    • Increase Damage per second per charge from 8 to 12
    • Reduce max stacks from 3 to 2 (max damage stays the same, 24)
  • NEW: 5% Magic Lifesteal (5% against non-hero units)

Reason: Lightbrand is another item that, when it was first introduced, was a synonym of a farming item, but now it's just a luxury to get lightbrand/grimoire of power, so buffing it's farming pottential just a little bit, while preventing it from being too strong againt heroes will make it a viable option.

Searing Light (4400 gold)

  • Searing effect:
    • Increase Damage per second per charge from 12 to 15 (max damage: 45)
  • NEW: 10% Magic Lifesteal (5% against non-hero units)

Reason: Same as Lightbrand, this item is rarely seen and, when seen, is just a temporary item before you can have the dawn bringer. This would make it a prefferable option for heroes that want to farm quickly with the searing ability

Frozen Light (4400 gold)

  • Increase Movement Speed reduction from -25% (-15% for ranged) to -30% (-20% for ranged)
  • Searing effect:
    • Increase Damage per second per charge from 12 to 15 (max damage: 45)
  • NEW: 10% Magic Lifesteal (5% against non-hero units)

Reason: Same as the others

Frostburn (4400 gold)

  • Increase Movement Speed reduction from -25% (-15% for ranged) to -30% (-20% for ranged)

Frostwolf Skull (5100 gold)

  • Active effect (ring of ice) is now superior magic
  • Duration reduced form 4 to 3 seconds

Reason: Just a cool suggestion someone gave me and I like it, I would take other suggestions on improving FWS though

Grimoire of Power (5100 gold)

  • Searing effect:
    • Searing now deals 1.5x damage against non-hero units
  • Active effect:
    • Increase bonus Magic Lifesteal from +35% to +50% (non-hero units bonus remains the same)
    • NEW: 20% Bonus cooldown reduction

Reason: This would scale the searing power to farm while still keeping the other options better if you want to deal magic damage per second against heroes. The cooldown reduction is just an effect that makes sense to me, since heroes that buy this item are usually spell casters

Dawnbringer (6600 gold)

  • Increase Movement Speed reduction from -35% (-20% for ranged) to -40% (-25% for ranged)
  • Increase Damage per second per charge from 16 to 18
  • increas max stacks from 3 to 4 (max damage increased from 48 to 72)
  • NEW: 15% Magic Lifesteal (5% against non-hero units)

 

Please let me know what you think :)

 

 

The princess is always in another castle

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As a general rule of thumb for design intention, all-rounder items are supposed to be weaker than their focused counterparts. Just putting that out there.

 

I need to see what others think before I consider this further.

Edited by ElementUser
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I personally would like to see buffs to these items. Especially lightbrand is barely picked up so having some base magic lifesteal makes sense. Also I almost never finish the dawnbringer when going for frostburn. Similar changes were done before and it turned out to be too overpowered on heroes like ravenor. So we need to be careful on not giving hit too much magic lifesteal..

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I think an issue is that Geo Bane is simply too strong on carrry heroes, and  more magic damage based heroes will just go for items like Spellshards, Jade, and Sunder (all which offer way more value than buying dawn or grimoire).   Dawnbringer could have a small stacking blind (aka miss chance) or something like that.  

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I agree that Geometer's Bane is simply too strong on carry heroes, Including Frostwolf's Skull too.

Suggestions for nerfs Geometer's Bane and Frostwolf's Skull:

+ Geometer's Bane
- Mana Cost increased from 50 to 100.
- Cooldown increased from 50 to 60 seconds.

+ Frostwolf's Skull
- Mana Cost increased from 50 to 100.
- Cooldown increased from 30 to 60 seconds.

I think it's a good nerfed because don't have to mess with stats and ability of the items unnecessarily and be equal to Mana Cost and Cooldown of Grimoire.

And if you want to add Magic Lifesteal on Lightbrand should remove Mana Regen to not make the items too strong.

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Brand autocombines are all rounder, however i'd argue that the brand themselves are specific. So the combinations giving so much free stats compared to individual pure strength/agility/int parts is what doesn't make sense. Currently only firebrand is the only thing worth buying on its own.

Feels like every time you want to buy a brand you have to rush for its next upgrade for it to be worth it. So i'm for buffing stage 1 brands.

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If I am being honest I would much rather see Geos giving illusions only 75% attackspeed than nerfing it any other way (numbers subjective to change and only for purpose of display).
The biggest issue with this item and why it is so strong on carries is simply, that it is for the most part only bought on heroes that have very strong passives or very specific autoattack related items (manaburn, lightning). On heroes like sandwraith or chronos that item gets out of hand so quickly as the scaling potential is just over the top, even with tarot (tho weirdly people don't seem to realize its full potential on her). whereas on other heroes it is often just underwhelming and only serves purpose of pushing (moonqueen) or disctrating/confusing opponents. even a hero like magebane needs some itemized setting up before geos can be utilized properly but yet again it all evolves around the heroes attackspeed.

and whether the illusions only deal damage for x% the issue remains that certain heroes just have an over-the-top synergy with the item if they get it quickly enough.
if you have a chronos with 500 gpm and he is good, chances are he has geos by 12-14 minutes after getting thunderclaw first and unless your entire team manages to completely trainwreck him, he will just solo 2-4 of your teammates over the 5 second duration of his ultimate (+/-1 second thereafter thanks to illus).
while i do think proper items and skills should be rewarded, one single item allowing a handful of heroes to get out of hand and become almost unstoppable just because of how insanely well they synergize due to passives is just too much to ask for.

And before anyone says "mimimi, crying cause you got wrecked, mimimi": that is literally how i play chronos if i ever play that hero around gold/diamond and so far i've done supremely well with it.
add a cleaver to that and upgrade your lightning and you can annihilate opponent teams in 5+/-1 seconds.

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On 4/29/2020 at 2:05 AM, LennyXX said:

Frostwolf Skull (5100 gold)

  • Active effect (ring of ice) is now superior magic
  • Duration reduced form 4 to 3 seconds

Reason: Just a cool suggestion someone gave me and I like it, I would take other suggestions on improving FWS though

I only want to put the suggestion, I feel the discussion already includes my point.

Winter Assault (renamed from Ring of Ice): Launches a projectile (same projectile as Frostwolf's ranged attack-projectile change) to each visible enemy in radius, dealing x% of attack damage as magic damage (changed to physical damage to magic immune unit).

By this suggestion, Frostwolf Skull bonus attack damage from its passive will make in good use to the active and it adds additional scaling magic damage item into the game, besides Harkon for instance. Also, it'll differentiate Frostwolf active and Frostfield active more.

Edit: also, Frostwolf attack speed reduction should be percentage to make it different than Frostfield aura, like 35% attack speed reduction.

I was quite outdated at that time unknowing FFP has percentage attack slow.

Edited by datfizh
Few missing detail added.

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On 4/30/2020 at 9:46 AM, merryhonmas said:

and whether the illusions only deal damage for x% the issue remains that certain heroes just have an over-the-top synergy with the item if they get it quickly enough.
if you have a chronos with 500 gpm and he is good, chances are he has geos by 12-14 minutes after getting thunderclaw first and unless your entire team manages to completely trainwreck him, he will just solo 2-4 of your teammates over the 5 second duration of his ultimate (+/-1 second thereafter thanks to illus).
while i do think proper items and skills should be rewarded, one single item allowing a handful of heroes to get out of hand and become almost unstoppable just because of how insanely well they synergize due to passives is just too much to ask for.

I see your point, but have to disagree, because it's the point of a hard carry like SW to get out of control if left alone in early/mid. If a team lets a hard carry farm its their own freaking fault and getting rekt in mid/late is the proper punishment imho.

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chronos only benefits from it due to his ult. if you don't counter the ult properly (storm, tablet etc.) you will lose regardless of his item pickups. also arcane bomb hard counters geobane and is rather cheap - I would not nerf gerobane or it will lose its purpose

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  • 1 month later...

Not sure about this at the moment, still sitting on the fence for some of these changes. The proposed Magic Lifesteal changes to Lightbrand may be okay now because of Ravenor's lowered effectiveness & the Magic Lifesteal effect being weak, but it doesn't really accomplish anything for other heroes & that is more of my concern at this point. It's just a fluff change to the Lightbrand branch that doesn't add much.

 

The other changes look okay, but debating on implementing them in some variant this patch or in a future one.

Edited by ElementUser
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Lightbrand

- Effect addition:: 6% non-DoT magic damage life steal (Halve when used on ravenor or hitting creep)

Searing Light/Frozen Light

- Effect addition:: 8% non-DoT magic damage life steal (Halve when used on ravenor or hitting creep)

Dawnbringer

- Effect addition:: 10% non-DoT magic damage life steal (Halve when used on ravenor or hitting creep)

 

Frostwolf skull:

- Change to Active Effect. Now summon a ice meteor to target location after 2s delay.

 + AOE: 325, Cast range: 500. Cooldown: 50s. Mana cost: 150

 + Damage: 200 magic damage(50 when hitting tower), Deal half the damage on creep

 + Effect: 60% tapering slow over 2.5 seconds.

 + Attack speed reduction remove (still Slow AS/Ms enemies on attack)

---
My Suggestion

 + Lightbrand have huge mana regen, but spending 2k2 gold for only mana regen and little burn damage isn't good enough. A little magic life steal will increase farming speed and Survival to recover the gold spent.

 + No one want to buy Frozen Light. It's the truth. As for Searing Light. Some inteliient hero may buy it because it have slow, Hp, and good mana regen (warchief, Fayde)

 + Dawmbringer: The item need more addition effect. But giving it too much life steal make it feel like broken item. So just a small number magic life steal wont change anything. Especially on some heroes and items such as Ravenor/Harkon

 + frostwolf's skull activation effect is smiliar to Frostfield Plate and frostwolf's skull almost have no downside thank to the stat/slow/damage. The activation effect now change to smiliar effect and give a huge Slow movement speed when combine with the frostwolf's skull passive Slow on attack. The item have no cast time but having a little delay before impact and it can be dodge. The Attack speed is remove because it is unnecessary. In exchange to the Effect lost, it now can deal damage to tower, give it more reason to build into it.

-----

For the visual effect, if we cant have the ice meteor then just use the blue version Pyromancer's W or Glacius Q, Ellonia W

Edited by w3_starboy

HoN SEA Player

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 7/5/2020 at 11:47 PM, ElementUser said:

Not sure about this at the moment, still sitting on the fence for some of these changes. The proposed Magic Lifesteal changes to Lightbrand may be okay now because of Ravenor's lowered effectiveness & the Magic Lifesteal effect being weak, but it doesn't really accomplish anything for other heroes & that is more of my concern at this point. It's just a fluff change to the Lightbrand branch that doesn't add much.

 

The other changes look okay, but debating on implementing them in some variant this patch or in a future one.

Just explaining that the idea is that the small lifesteal from lightbrand would work like a sustainer. When farming in the jungle midgame, I feel like whispiring helm is a must have on any carry/farming hero and lightbrand would be an option to change this a bit

The princess is always in another castle

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  • 3 weeks later...

Here, another suggestion to lightbrand and its line of items:

Spoiler

Besides the current state of Lightbrand (and its line of items), there are proposed changes:

  • Replace magic lifesteal to 75% post-mitigate damage taken absorption based on max mana.
  • The damage absorption is 12% of Max Mana to Lightbrand, 18% of Max Mana to Frozen Light Searing Light, 24% of Max Mana to Dawnbringer, and 30% of Max Mana to Grimoire of Power.
  • The damage absorption is reset to its full every 8 seconds whenever there is no visible enemy hero in 1000 radius.
  • Searing Modifier is removed.
  • Grimoire of Power no longer passively reduces cooldown.
  • Grimoire of Power activation is changed to immediately reset damage absorption of item. Has 20 seconds cooldown and costs 100 Mana.

Thought process:

  • Brand's concept should be designed to assist in targeting down the opponent, like icebrand to slow enemy's escape and firebrand to outrun escaped enemy.
  • In conclusion, this proposed suggestion gives lightbrand a Brand's design to alert enemy's presence.
  • Damage absorption based on max mana is quite solid replacement of Searing & Magic Lifesteal on Lightbrand regardless of user's max mana because Lightbrand itself provides quite max mana from intelligence attributes it possesses.
  • Searing modifier is removed from Lightbrand and its line of items so it can be used by Shadowbrand, new variant of brand.
  • Grimoire of Power activation is changed completely to accommodate overall suggestion.

 

 

Edited by datfizh
update #2.5

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

Alternatively, visit this blog below to see the compiled version of the threads/posts I made on this Official HoN Forum:
newerthbrainstorm.blogspot.com

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On 8/8/2020 at 12:21 PM, LennyXX said:

Just explaining that the idea is that the small lifesteal from lightbrand would work like a sustainer. When farming in the jungle midgame, I feel like whispiring helm is a must have on any carry/farming hero and lightbrand would be an option to change this a bit

I don´ think it would make people pick up lightbrand instead of Whispering helm. Besides its stats you can dominate creeps to stack jungle with which is what a carry wants. Whispering also builds into Symbol of Rage later which every carry will eventually want to have.

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