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doctornik

simplifying the game too much.

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HoN is loved coz of its hardcore difference between other MoBas(excluding Dota as its actually the same concept kinda).  What i would like to achieve here is a post regarding the simplification of heroes and the game in general, and what gave me this idea about having a discussion about this was a post in Reddit suggesting the removal of creep denies, removing agility, strenght, intelligence , etc ...
The game has already changed a lot, and its so much easier:

Map/ items: 
- Long lane has routes for escapes , its not `hard` lane  anymore imo

-Pull camps are near long lane so the opponents can pull also( no u cant block it all the time, u need to pull also, and also one support cant go defend pulling the camp against duo man up)
- Graves locket: oh my my , a support outfarming you,
- Reduced price on Homecoming stone
-Shrunken stable duration ( u dont have to spent 3900 anymore to rebuy it when the cd goes to 5s)


Hero wise: 1) Tarot: putting W on enemy , auto bounces- > in the past you had to hit another hero so the hit will bounce also to the marked target. and that is what i liked about the hero. minor things make better uitilization of the hero. now everyone can spam her, nothing skill wise about her, just positioning( a thing that u have to know about everyhero, not only carries)
                        2) Prophet, everything is automatically. press w, bounces to nearest hero, ult is automatically around you etc etc.
                        3) Tremble- no micro anymore
                         4)Doctor- micro key to auto grab someone 
                          5) prisoner- micro key to auto grab someone
                         

Cant think anything more atm, and i dont have much time to find anymore changes. That were the most of them i could remember.
Please feel free to add to that list of items, heroes ,and map changes that are simplified. And also please feel free to express your opinion about this topic.


p.s: ending my general opinion is that the game has  changed to a much easier game, even easier than Dota 2. I still love it, but i wouldnt mind going back to its roots. As i remember that was the motto a few years back. As the devs told back then: the people left playing hon are the hardcore fans. Didnt say revert to what it was. Just a little hardcore gaming i think it would be welcomed
Have a good evening lads 🤠


 

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Posted (edited)

One day they will change the name of the game to "League of Newerth" or "Heroes of Demacia". At least mid wars is still enjoyable, except when you (as a solo) get a match against 5 premade picking healing/protective skills.

Edited by cuysaurus
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In order for a Locket to pay itself back entirely you need to sit and leech 73 creep kills. Yes it provides stats but I wouldn't call it easy mode. There's a choice you make between getting that item for late game returns versus getting early Marchers, Soul Trap, Chalice, etc. I would argue that it in fact adds more depth to support as there are more choices to be made instead of just spam wards and get assist gifted Red Marchers until you die.

In fact this cascades down as the enemy mid can't just prey on farmless supports, and might actually need to have teamwork, communication, Veil and positioning to effectively get kills now that they have access to more gold and cheaper items and vision.

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I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Posted (edited)

Simplifying != easier != more casual != less hardcore.

 

Just saying. Those Prisoner/Doctor changes for example aren't reliable - someone can gimp your spellcast by popping an illusion rune on reaction to you jumping in, as an example.

 

You are of course free to interpret the changes however you want - I'm saying people who share your mindset are fairly close-minded when it comes to their perception of such changes.

Edited by ElementUser
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I think one of the most common deceits is the idea of artificial difficulty. My favourite example is in DOTA, you cannot see enemy mana bars unless you click on them. Does this add anything of value to the game? Ultimately all it does is add an extra step for information that is already public. It doesn't make you better because you can do it, its just a step that basically is a game requirement.


I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

Simplifying != easier != more casual != less hardcore.

I wanted to write that 😭

Quality of life improvements always make games easier but in a good way.
Just because playing HoN with a 5" monitor is harder, doesn't make it more fun.

Edited by manu311

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If you don't find the game to be hardcore enough for you anymore then why not spice your life by being more hardcore irl?

For the ultimate hardcore experience try eating soup with a fork. Or eating spaghetti with only a spoon.

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I do agree that something has to be done about the medium camp being pulled. I miss the good old lane control tactics without having to block your own neutral camp 


The princess is always in another castle

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27 minutes ago, LennyXX said:

I do agree that something has to be done about the medium camp being pulled. I miss the good old lane control tactics without having to block your own neutral camp 

Since I usually play short-support, the medium camp being pulled is usually a disadvantage for me. However I enjoy that it's possible.
It generates a lot of additional challenge for me and my carry. Either to prevent the pull or even turn it into an early kill.
Of course it doesn't always work, but in general the short lane still has the advantage.

On one hand OP complains about over-simplifications, but on the other hand he complains about additional challenges as short-lane.
Sure it changes the game a little bit, but keeping everything just for the sake of it is rarely the best choice.

Having lanes that don't have a lot of advantages over their opposing lane generally adds more balance, action and because of that: fun.
If you already know that top and bottom lane are winning while left and right are loosing, you basically can throw away the early game (slightly over-exaggerating).

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, ElementUser said:

Simplifying != easier != more casual != less hardcore.

 

Just saying. Those Prisoner/Doctor changes for example aren't reliable - someone can gimp your spellcast by popping an illusion rune on reaction to you jumping in, as an example.

 

You are of course free to interpret the changes however you want - I'm saying people who share your mindset are fairly close-minded when it comes to their perception of such changes.

ye, maybe these changes arent reliable, didnt think of the illusions scenario, true.


-> another addition to my post above that just realised after i played gaunlet a few momments ago :
 Gaunlet is a fair strong midlaner.  And the skill required to play him was to be able to direct path him to hook them to you. Now its too easy, to do it.   Didnt say its a guaranteed hook, but still i believe the hero got simplified. 
 

-Yes i can understand what was the concept behind this simplifications on certain heroes. So everyone can play them.  Im not an idiot. But leave a few champions to require some dexterity and skill to play them. I dont think having something challenging is bad for any game.
The only challenging champions i can think of that requires a high amount of skill to play atm are Ophelia and Sillhouete. But after the nerf Silh. got, i cant see her competing against other hard carries. So not a viable choice , at least for serious matches, imho.


-I do believe that getting some hardcore aspects would bring some joy to old players. Something to pick again. not always the same heroes. For example i know for a fact that after the simplification of Tremble , he wasnt picked so much. And im sure a reverse to the old Tremble will enthusize old players.

-I mean if u ask an ophelia player, he will tell you that he likes the idea that he is able to micro creeps, and other people cant do it. and that he feels good picking the hero,coz he knows that a good ophelia player is being respected by the community as everyone knows the skill required to play her. Its like in dota 2, people admire pro Invoker players. That hero requires 10 active buttons from skills to items,combos,combos , combos,game sense, etc, etc.  He used to sit 2nd most played hero place,( atm he is in the 10th place ). 


Anyhow ,Im not making these posts so i will force a change. Thats why im posting it in general discussion. 
Its my way of trying to provide my thoughts and what i think about the game atm.  Its just food for thought.  Maybe its wrong maybe its correct.
 

Edited by doctornik

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4 hours ago, SmolSnek said:

If you don't find the game to be hardcore enough for you anymore then why not spice your life by being more hardcore irl?

For the ultimate hardcore experience try eating soup with a fork. Or eating spaghetti with only a spoon.

really i will answer just to this, but aint gonna bother again with these kinda of replies.

 Its called general discussion section.If u cant interpret the meaning of this section in the forums really i cant help you. I dont see anyone of you high intelligent 2k mmr players, trying to provide anything to the community, you are just coming to the forums to mock and play it smart. I m not making this post coz im bored of my life. I genuinely try to make posts to help improve the game. or at least what in my opinion will improve the game experience of the players left here.  If u think its stupid or bad , or whatever just reply and say your opinion, or just ignore the post in general.  I spent an amount of time to make the post, so at least respect that.

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44 minutes ago, doctornik said:

But after the nerf Silh. got, i cant see her competing against other hard carries. So not a viable choice , at least for serious matches, imho.

Watch match 158830227

This guy shows silho is still strong enough

49 minutes ago, doctornik said:

-I do believe that getting some hardcore aspects would bring some joy to old players. Something to pick again. not always the same heroes. For example i know for a fact that after the simplification of Tremble , he wasnt picked so much. And im sure a reverse to the old Tremble will enthusize old players.

While I agree with you on the hardcore aspects bringing joy, I think there are still many heroes that require a lot of skill in the game

Try engineer mid, calamity and saphire short lane.

Those are very hard heroes to play imo, and if you're looking for a challenge, those heroes are rarely played due to their skill cap

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The princess is always in another castle

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Not a huge fan of all the pulling myself. Feels like it happens way to often. Personally, i would rather want the focus on the lane and try to promote some back and forth there. Imho.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, doctornik said:

-Yes i can understand what was the concept behind this simplifications on certain heroes. So everyone can play them.  Im not an idiot. But leave a few champions to require some dexterity and skill to play them. I dont think having something challenging is bad for any game.
 

 

Nope, wrong. They were used because of skill flow issues with heroes - Prisoner/Doctor/other heroes that received similar changes in that patch have 3+ active skills with potentially click-heavy playstyles (in Doctor Repulsor's case) or general targetability clarity issues (in this case, Prisoner if you hook a hero with a bunch of creeps), and heroes who fit this category tend to feel clunky if there are too many single-target ability clicks involved in their typical user input flow. This was also the reason why Prophet's W is no longer single-target (but self-cast + nearest ally hero). It's a user-experience oriented change, not a game simplification change. There was a forum post about it that Psionic wrote in the old forums, but it has been lost - otherwise, I would have linked you to that.

 

This goes to show that you don't in fact understand the intent behind design changes.

Edited by ElementUser
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I hate "old school" dota fanboys that were going mad after a good QoL change. So many years ago I kept posting on forums that "old" courier system was so terrible, people stealing items, hiding, intentionally killing couriers, giving out items etc and at last S2 Games decided to change it as it we see it now and that was great change. I never liked old couriers, all they did was whole team raging and insulting each other. Of course you can bring now "sneaking" to kill mid courier to steal bottle and codex couriers but in most scenarios people are mistaking "hardcore gaming" with "frustration". They think the more game is frustrating and unpleasant the harder and more rewarding it is but it's not. It's like someone said with that fork and spoon. For me when a mechanic or something provides in 85% frustration, rage etc I dont think it's necessary. Same with secret shops, both couriers and secret shops were stupid things ported from dota, it wasnt hard to go to the shop just it was frustrating, you had gold and you can lose it but you can't leave your lane etc of course it opened a bit of strategies but at what cost? I was so happy when I saw patch notes that remove both things from the game. 

Game doesnt have to be frustrating, raw, and unpleasant to be rewarding in terms of skill. You could also remove all health/mana bars, equipment visibility, so you always have to click enemy to see what he has and how much hp/mana he has, will it be more hardcore? Yes. Will it be much more irritating and frustraing? Yes. 

I also asked on forums to remove "all chat" just like in strife, no rages, no insulting, no griefing. People minding own business and talk only to team. If they trashtalk each other so be it, but at least they dont involve other team and the shitstorm always begin this way.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, ensid said:

I hate "old school" dota fanboys that were going mad after a good QoL change. So many years ago I kept posting on forums that "old" courier system was so terrible, people stealing items, hiding, intentionally killing couriers, giving out items etc and at last S2 Games decided to change it as it we see it now and that was great change. I never liked old couriers, all they did was whole team raging and insulting each other. Of course you can bring now "sneaking" to kill mid courier to steal bottle and codex couriers but in most scenarios people are mistaking "hardcore gaming" with "frustration". They think the more game is frustrating and unpleasant the harder and more rewarding it is but it's not. It's like someone said with that fork and spoon. For me when a mechanic or something provides in 85% frustration, rage etc I dont think it's necessary. Same with secret shops, both couriers and secret shops were stupid things ported from dota, it wasnt hard to go to the shop just it was frustrating, you had gold and you can lose it but you can't leave your lane etc of course it opened a bit of strategies but at what cost? I was so happy when I saw patch notes that remove both things from the game. 

Game doesnt have to be frustrating, raw, and unpleasant to be rewarding in terms of skill. You could also remove all health/mana bars, equipment visibility, so you always have to click enemy to see what he has and how much hp/mana he has, will it be more hardcore? Yes. Will it be much more irritating and frustraing? Yes. 

I also asked on forums to remove "all chat" just like in strife, no rages, no insulting, no griefing. People minding own business and talk only to team. If they trashtalk each other so be it, but at least they dont involve other team and the shitstorm always begin this way.

-well i agree with what u said with courrier and secret shops, never asked for this frustrating gameplay. Its indeed more frustrating,rather hardcore.
 
-all chat on the other hand i do like. You are able to all chat, either to greet, either to say wp to a good play that occured- POG 😄 , to say GGs, either to laugh with the `lack ` of someone, even for a good bantering(sometimes bantering does help me play better as i dont want that cocky guy to win), and many more. 
i believe helps with the soul of this game.
Ofc sometimes im tiltled by it, thats why  i set my chat to `team chat` only. or even whispers, or even type /ic. U  can try it to, the game already has the solution to your problem, you just dont use it i guess

Edited by doctornik

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1 hour ago, doctornik said:

-well i agree with what u said with courrier and secret shops, never asked for this frustrating gameplay. Its indeed more frustrating,rather hardcore.
 
-all chat on the other hand i do like. You are able to all chat, either to greet, either to say wp to a good play that occured- POG 😄 , to say GGs, either to laugh with the `lack ` of someone, even for a good bantering(sometimes bantering does help me play better as i dont want that cocky guy to win), and many more. 
i believe helps with the soul of this game.
Ofc sometimes im tiltled by it, thats why  i set my chat to `team chat` only. or even whispers, or even type /ic. U  can try it to, the game already has the solution to your problem, you just dont use it i guess

other ppl are triggering 24/7 on all chat, myself included, i got suspended bilion times across all accounts, i was trashtalker and tryharder back in the days, tried to ignore even ally chats so i dont trigger but then communication was harm. I never liked idea of all chat. 

I like QoL on Kane for example, I just hate dearly abilities that have "facing cast" because hero tends to turn weird directions if u click unfortunately due to pathing.

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Does anyone remember in DotA when the secret shop was a wandering merchant who literally randomly walked across the map? That was some hardcore stuff, especially when it wandered into the enemy base for 90% of the game. I can't wait for that change to come back and be more hardcore.

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I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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5 hours ago, ensid said:

I also asked on forums to remove "all chat" just like in strife, no rages, no insulting, no griefing. People minding own business and talk only to team. If they trashtalk each other so be it, but at least they dont involve other team and the shitstorm always begin this way.

I support that. All chat is abused to breach the code of conduct way to much. (Insulting the enemy, telling the enemy where certain team members are located if they hide in order to not get killed)

 

4 hours ago, doctornik said:


 
-all chat on the other hand i do like. You are able to all chat, either to greet, either to say wp to a good play that occured- POG 😄 , to say GGs, either to laugh with the `lack ` of someone, even for a good bantering(sometimes bantering does help me play better as i dont want that cocky guy to win), and many more. 
i believe helps with the soul of this game.
 

If you want to say GG you can do it in the after match chat.

 

The implementation of pings (Missing heroes/lanes, requesting assistance, attacking/defending heroes/towers) was gold. It emphasizes what this game is about, working together as a team. Therefore I actually do not give anything about communication with the enemy team and would probably never notice the absence of the possibility to do that.

(I loved the commo rose in Battlefield 2142 which the pings in this game kind of remind me of, they made communicating so much easier and chatting pretty much obsolete)

4 hours ago, doctornik said:

Ofc sometimes im tiltled by it, thats why  i set my chat to `team chat` only. or even whispers, or even type /ic. U  can try it to, the game already has the solution to your problem, you just dont use it i guess

If I want to have a really relaxed game of HoN i do exactly that: 4x /ic, 1x /dnd and disable voice chat. I even would say that because of the absence of flames and thus self fulfilling prophecies sometimes I actually play better. Even a ping on the map is often enough to let me know what my team mates are thinking about the game right now enabling adjustments to the progress of the game maybe resulting in a win.

Not denying that voice chat with decent human beings can be gold of course.

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