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Keeper of the Forest is breaking high level TMM


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So, I've been watching this hero for the past week or so and I just want to make sure this gets fixed next patch

Keeper is clearly broken op
It's good short lane, suicide, long, jungle, mid, anything
Imo, Q and W are the issues, I don't think I have to explain why

Last game I played was the last drop. My entire team got counter picks to the hero and it was still able to perform well, even though it was on the hands of an average player, who could badely macro his minions

I suggest removing the root from Q and lowering how much the buff lasts

If you don't agree with me, let me know, I can look for 4 or 5 games that show you how it's breaking tmm games at leg2 and above

The princess is always in another castle

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4 hours ago, LennyXX said:

So, I've been watching this hero for the past week or so and I just want to make sure this gets fixed next patch

Keeper is clearly broken op
It's good short lane, suicide, long, jungle, mid, anything
Imo, Q and W are the issues, I don't think I have to explain why

Last game I played was the last drop. My entire team got counter picks to the hero and it was still able to perform well, even though it was on the hands of an average player, who could badely macro his minions

I suggest removing the root from Q and lowering how much the buff lasts

If you don't agree with me, let me know, I can look for 4 or 5 games that show you how it's breaking tmm games at leg2 and above

I'd like to suggest the use of this website "https://hon-stats.herokuapp.com/" made by CraZ_Killa and originally posted on Reddit (

) as a quick tool to search and compile relevant match IDs regarding what you feel as KotF being broken.

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3 hours ago, ElementUser said:

You posted this in General Discussion, not Balance Discussion.

 

At the very least you should post the games to prove your point - KotF is either a push bot or a walking ultimate without the root on his Q.

 

The root from his Q is like a second ultimate and I'm not sure why it was implemented in the first place. On top of the defensive bonuses from the spell;  Extra armour,  health regeneration etc, it now has an offensive aspect to it, why?

 

 

Countless players are abusing it, and keeper can just purchase Elders and Ghost Marchers and 1 shot everything around the map which is quite extreme for a 'push bot/walking ultimate' hero as you just stated

Edited by `Geminai
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1 hour ago, `Geminai said:

 

The root from his Q is like a second ultimate and I'm not sure why it was implemented in the first place. On top of the defensive bonuses from the spell;  Extra armour,  health regeneration etc, it now has an offensive aspect to it, why?

 

 

Countless players are abusing it, and keeper can just purchase Elders and Ghost Marchers and 1 shot everything around the map which is quite extreme for a 'push bot/walking ultimate' hero as you just stated

Keeper can't literally one-shot people with Elder Parasite and Ghost Marchers. And you said I was the one talking about extremes.

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Keeper of the Forest has hard-counters such as Electrician and Monarch, that are able to trivialize his Ultimate; and he doesn't perform very well with EP and Ghost Marchers against a good support or certain heroes (Chronos, Moira, Monarch). I think the addition of an offensive aspect to a primarily passive hero is a good thing, and if removed would return him to where he once was.

Edited by Lunarios
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People like these 2 commenting on the hero they played once or never. And if they did play it, they would figure out that you can use Q on your pet trees, and if you are really good with micro, disable the enemy for 10-15 seconds depending on your level. But that feature will be fixed. I feel like this is more of an issue with Elder than the hero itself.

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Nonsense, nerfing keeper will destroy him completely. Good waveclear, revelation, items such shrunken head, geobane or counterpicks is already making it rough for him.

Been playing KOTF a lot.

Something that should be discussed is the grimoire of power.

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21 hours ago, ElementUser said:

Keeper can't literally one-shot people with Elder Parasite and Ghost Marchers. And you said I was the one talking about extremes.

 

I think you'll find he can

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31 minutes ago, `Geminai said:

 

I think you'll find he can

I didn't know +10 damage from Elder Parasite and +24 Damage from Ghost Marchers literally lets him kill any hero in 1 hit.

 

Oh wait, that's because it doesn't.

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I've been playing KotF for quite a while after the recent patch, I think I know what is being talked about. With EP + Ghost Marchers KotF damage output is very high (being a high STR Gain hero), along with the natural attack speed boost with the passive, KotF can reach 2 attacks per second along with a very high physical damage per attack. Combine that with an immobilized target, and you have a deadly combo.

High DPS output? Yes. Overpowered? Maybe in a percentage of the scenarios. Broken? I don't think having to play around a certain hero's skillset is broken. When there's a Tempest in play, you have to play around it. When there's a Vindicator in play, you have to keep him in mind. Just because there is a need to place an extra rev ward or stay near your Carry as a support, pick a specific hero for a situation or be able to head-dive less, does not mean something is broken.

Yeah if I have EP and Ghost Marchers and I manage to sneak to the main carry while he's farming unnoticed, and the main carry happens to be FA and not  Chronos or Sand Wraith etc., and he also happens to be completely alone and not have a Pearl, Monarch, Electrician, Martyr, or any support for that matter to accompany him, I can get the kill on him. But broken? I wouldn't say that. I would say it requires some moderate tweaking to the numbers on the Q (Maybe 1/1.2/1.4/1.6 seconds root from 1.2/1.6/2/2.4), and have the root only affect KotF himself, but not more than that.

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1 hour ago, Zerkul said:

Why wouldn't they be able to fight back when they are rooted? 

perhaps some people thought root = stun, in fact it is just immobilize +dps AFAIK.

 

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

 

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On 1/18/2021 at 9:25 PM, ElementUser said:

You posted this in General Discussion, not Balance Discussion.

 

At the very least you should post the games to prove your point - KotF is either a push bot or a walking ultimate without the root on his Q.

Firstly, I apologize if this is the wrong forum to post this. My thoughts were that this is more of an issue in high tmm, were players know how to abuse keeper's strength right now.

Secondly, here are a couple matches where his  over the top strength get's highlighted: 160664059, 160736405.

After this, i proceeded to pick the hero just to test. I am terrible at managing creeps, have boomer APM, missed several ults, died several times, and still managed to easily win with the hero

These are not extreme examples. This is just what always happens.

I think EU understands balance way more than I do, but i do know that push heroes are always an issue. A push hero cannot also be viable in lane and effective in late game team fights.

The princess is always in another castle

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2 hours ago, Mezi said:

what is broken is the farming rate in jungle...

Or rather say, the disparity between the junglers farming abilities, if we do happen to open this subject. Why is it that KotF has almost 50% of the GPM/XPM farming ability of Legionnaire? Farming with solstice at night can be equivalent to trying to open a round door knob with chopsticks, and Draconis is able to outlevel by a significant margin every other hero in Heroes of Newerth with his farming speed.

A lot of the "issues" lie in the design of the heroes as well, Solstice should be ganking at night, KotF should be pushing towers, Legionnaire should be ganking heroes using his early gold advantage, and Draconis should compensate his slow nature with items.

I'm not complaining at all, in fact, I like things as they are with the Jungle heroes and their designs. It creates a lot of interest and sophistication in the game. What I'm trying, then, in fact, to say - is that KotF is not the main problem. There are many other issues. Big issues, small issues. A lot can be said about many heroes, I don't think picking on a specific hero just because so is the right thing to do.

I think the right thing to do is to weigh things logically and strategically; yes KotF is strong as of now in my opinion, but he doesn't require a big nerf to alleviate the voiced concerns towards him, at least from the way I see it. From the way I see it, simply removing the option to allow units other than KotF to apply root + slightly lowering the root duration on KotF Q, OR, preventing KotF from applying two roots in succession (using Q, not talking about KotF ultimate here) on a target (As you can invis yourself, wait 10 seconds, hit a target, invis yourself again, and you achieve a 4.8 second total root on a target) - I think that would be reasonable and fair.

Edited by Lunarios
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@Lunarios I simply search for old threads regarding concerns about the current state of the jungle. And I find that the better thread was already archieved. So I just wanted to try to generate some more focus on the current state of the jungle in general. I might not agree that kotg is the major concern, however, he clearly show a trend. The fact that a jungle hero has a huge impact on the game with a relatively low effort to play this role. I think if you rank the different roles and their significance in the game you would simply have:

 

1. mid

2. carry

3. jungle (you might even put this 2nd)

4. main sup

5. sui/2nd sup/roam/gank

 

and the similar ranking based on difficulty:

 

1. mid (mostly because you face stronger players more frequently)

2. main sup

3. sui/2nd sup/roam/gank

4. carry

5. jungle

 

which I think is bad mismatch. You can play flawless main sup or sui/2nd sup/roam/gank and yet a avarage jungle player can turn the tides to favor that side. I just doesnt make sense. I think jungle heros are fine to have in the game, but they should not be as significant as they are in the current state of the game. Simply beacuse the skill level required to play in jungle are low compared to the other roles. Similarly, the jungle are often abused from trolling which again should reduce their significance in the game in my opinion. I just think the jungle are stronger than necessary. People still like to play jungle hero when they were difficult to make a significant impact factor of the game. It actually promote good gameplay and not simply a free ride role as it is today.

 

It is also no reason to give the carry a free boost to increase the unequal distribution of resources in the first place (with a high gold/xp rate jungle). To have a slower full gear meta, you can actually turn games with pure skill in different roles. As my favorite role is 2nd sup ganker, I can never turn a game alone, simply never. Because the current gold gain is too high all-over from the recent trend towards permanent casual mode instead of the oldschool slower gameplay. The game slowly reduce skill level all over, which obviously is a bad thing in my opinion. The easy access to gold and xp have made it so much easier to play a carry now compared to earlier.

Edited by Mezi
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2 hours ago, Mezi said:

@Lunarios I simply search for old threads regarding concerns about the current state of the jungle. And I find that the better thread was already archieved. So I just wanted to try to generate some more focus on the current state of the jungle in general. I might not agree that kotg is the major concern, however, he clearly show a trend. The fact that a jungle hero has a huge impact on the game with a relatively low effort to play this role. I think if you rank the different roles and their significance in the game you would simply have:

 

1. mid

2. carry

3. jungle (you might even put this 2nd)

4. main sup

5. sui/2nd sup/roam/gank

 

and the similar ranking based on difficulty:

 

1. mid (mostly because you face stronger players more frequently)

2. main sup

3. sui/2nd sup/roam/gank

4. carry

5. jungle

 

which I think is bad mismatch. You can play flawless main sup or sui/2nd sup/roam/gank and yet a avarage jungle player can turn the tides to favor that side. I just doesnt make sense. I think jungle heros are fine to have in the game, but they should not be as significant as they are in the current state of the game. Simply beacuse the skill level required to play in jungle are low compared to the other roles. Similarly, the jungle are often abused from trolling which again should reduce their significance in the game in my opinion. I just think the jungle are stronger than necessary. People still like to play jungle hero when they were difficult to make a significant impact factor of the game. It actually promote good gameplay and not simply a free ride role as it is today.

 

It is also no reason to give the carry a free boost to increase the unequal distribution of resources in the first place (with a high gold/xp rate jungle). To have a slower full gear meta, you can actually turn games with pure skill in different roles. As my favorite role is 2nd sup ganker, I can never turn a game alone, simply never. Because the current gold gain is too high all-over from the recent trend towards permanent casual mode instead of the oldschool slower gameplay. The game slowly reduce skill level all over, which obviously is a bad thing in my opinion. The easy access to gold and xp have made it so much easier to play a carry now compared to earlier.

If we take aside all the mistakes I see Jungle players make quite often (from a mechanical standpoint), and we take aside all the potential disruptions a Jungler may face (which are surprisingly rather easy to do - block camps, gank, etc.), and we give a Jungler free space to farm as he wishes for an unlimited amount of time - Yeah, from an XPM/GPM and available resources standpoint he outfarms everyone in the game. Do junglers fill an important role in my eyes? Yes. Can they win a game alone? No way.  

I think, they NEED to have an advantage over all the other lanes, otherwise their existence is not justified. Once a jungler is picked, it is almost an automatical admission of defeat of the longlane. It is practically saying - We will let the enemy hard-carry freefarm, in order to have a jungler. It puts a lot of pressure on the jungler to perform well, as he BETTER be strong once he finishes his stuff. Otherwise, if all the factors are in place, you may potentially face a 800 GPM hard-carry that is farmed to the depths of his soul. Of course there are cases where a sui laner is victorious and/or he manages to disrupt the enemy hard-carry heavily, but these are not the general norm.

The problem is, if the Jungle lane becomes weaker, the other lanes have to become weaker along with it. I have a feeling the Jungle lane was made stronger in the beginning to combat the effects of a heavily free-farmed enemy hard-carry.

I won't deny though the fact that the lane is easy. Out of all the 5 lanes, it's probably the easiest; it requires the least amount of interaction with actual enemy players and you face every game the same NPC enemies with the same reactions - it becomes simply a matter of memorization at that point. As to your statement that there is a reduction in skill level all-over, I have to disagree with it - I don't feel that; I feel that players become increasingly better, and there is a significant amount of high quality mind-games, more than any other time in HoN's history.

Maybe the problem is not the Jungle being easy, or gold too easy to attain; but rather there is too little interaction with the environment? Imagine this - Neutrals randomly casting their spells. Minotaurs that have 10% to stun for 1.4 seconds every autoattack, Catmen Champions that have 10% chance to deal double damage, Vagabond Leaders that have a 10% chance to apply a 10 HP/sec health removal for 3 seconds per autoattack, Vulture Lords that have a 10% chance to completely ignore all damage taken per damage instance taken, Skeleton Kings that have a 10% chance to apply -5 Armor for 2 seconds per Autoattack, obviously all of this not being transferred to a Parasite-controlled neutral. What it does is INDIRECTLY lower the GPM/XPM potential of a Jungler. Suddenly, it's not 100% sure you will reach those numbers, it's not so easy, there's risk involved, sometimes it will work - sometimes it won't, you have to be more careful, more aware. Yeah, sure, it makes the Jungle harder and not as easy, but that's not the main goal - the main goal is to increase the interactivity, the unpredictability, the hazard.

I think that the problem is not in the numerical values of everything that's happening right now in the game, but rather the predictability of the operations, the mundane nature of repetition. You know EXACTLY what to expect. You know what you can, and what you can't do, and there is no risk and no reward, there is just what there is. But if there is a certain degree of randomness added to a Jungler, suddenly, a Jungler can die much more often by accident. He may do mistakes more often, even if he performs to the best of his ability - as the success doesn't depend solely on him, but on RNG and on luck. A Blacksmith player knows this all too well - sometimes, you just have to roll the dice and pray to the gods. That is what I think, that we need to add a level of danger to a Jungler, to make the lane more interactive - not so AFK farm-ish.

Edited by Lunarios
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