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It is hilarious how you mange to come in here and post a reply showing that you dont get any of the points in this discussion over and over. You are purely trying to insult and flame my point of view while I ask for you to put forward some real arguments. Your only argument is that you prefere passive low action games. That is your type of fun. Stay jungle and come out happy to fight with an advantage. Your post is worthless which I will show in the following.

 

8 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

I do happen to play fair bit of Jungle heroes. I also happen to play quite a bit of Suicide roles. I also happen to play quite a bit of carry and support heroes. Some games I play mid. I play all the roles the game offers. How narrowminded it is of you to judge people by their likes. Oh! Mezi think suicide role is not fun I guess the entire playerbase now has to stop playing Suicide and Jungle roles, right? Get off your high horse. I also have played Dota, I also started playing HoN when it was in closed Beta, I payed 30 dollars for my account when the beta ended. I also happened to buy another account for 5 dollars when there was sale and gave my original account to a friend so he can play. You are not somekind of special person here, there are a lot of people just like you and me who played Dota before HoN and even games that came before Dota. So i suggest you get off your high horse.

I never said I am special. I tried to explain to you that having a jungle and suicide in the majority of the games has not been common over the years of HoN and dota. You obviously are to narrowminding and ignorant to understand my argument or you have had tunnel vision in all of your 15 years of playing moba. You are just sad, try to come up with some arguments instead of saying that I am sitting on my high horse since I agree with another comment above in this disussion, that suicide role are literaly boring in the early game. I am totally aware that people like different things, thats why I try to ask if you find plessure in owning bots with a huge level and item advantage? You did not manage to answere, so I guess I know the answere. You like to think you are better than other players when you play with different prerequisites. I recon that you not mention that you ever play main support so... Im not surpriced on who you are in this player base!

 

8 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

You actually think about removing jungle altogether just because YOU don´t like it.

You cant read? I say I like to have this discussion becuase I think such a change would promote more even and fun games for everyone. Just becuse you disagree with me, you should be able to read and accept my thoughts? Maybe come up with some arguement for your case instead of throwing nosense out in the discussion over and over.

 

8 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

You then proceed to call the playerbase "slow" so developers wouldnt even consider adding a "game mode without jungle".

I dont have the slightest imagine where you get this idea? I say that the player base are LOW in numbers, so developers dont want many modes because it will increase the game queue waiting time?

 

8 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

You lack any real statistics. Its you and "other" players. Who? Why don´t we see more threads about jungle being a problem if it actually is a problem?

Yes I know. Thats why I also pointed that out in my post. Why dont you help out and show some statistics instead of contribute nothing? This is exaclty why I want to open a disussion, to hear what people think.

 

8 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

If you don´t like having 3 jungle heroes in your games then maybe try to get out of low rank? The most I see in my games is 1 jungle each side. 2 junglers one side if someone happens to accidently random one. And these games are extremely rare. So I don´t know what kind of shithole rank you are in that u have up to 3 jungler heroes in a lot of games.

Im pritty sure that I am higher rank than you. This is anyway non-relevant information in this discussion. I dont say 3 jungle hero is the most common thing, I say it happens, but you do not need to be rocket scientist to understand that 1 or 2 is more common... Grow up. By the way, you call the bracekt for beginners and low skilled players for "shithole", please reconsider your verbal language. You are clearly someone that contributes to toxicity.

 

8 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

You also arguing that jungle should be basically made obsolete because someone might get mad and go hide in jungle. Maybe FB should shutdown the game because someone might hurt your feelings in game?

This is not the reason as I explain earlier. However, a side effect could lead to less trolling which is an good thing. That is the point with that comment.

 

 

I will clearly state in the end of this reply.

If YOU dont try to reply anything CONSTRUCTIVE in the future I will NOT BOTHER to reply to your post. I already wasted more than enough time trying to explain some easy understood points earlier in the discussion to you personally. This is mainly because you come with nonsense insults that dont hold proof. So please try to be objective on this topic and contribute to the discussion even though you are obvisouly offended by something and feel the need to defend your posistion with insulting the author.

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8 hours ago, ElementUser said:

The general philosophy is to keep the lane combinations (2-1-2, 2-1-1-jungle, 3-1-1, and any pseudo-roaming variant in between) have different pros & cons with comparable viability between each other, done in such a manner where it's not clear one is necessarily better than the other.

 

Currently, the game's meta seems to fulfill those goals & philosophy.

I agree with this. But I want to emphesize that the distrubution of various lane combination does not feel very balanced. Without having any exact numbers I can only sort from personaly experience which put 2-1-1-jungle clearly in a percentile of its own. Then 2-1-2 is more common than 3-1-1 and any pseudo-roaming variant. However, even if the general philosophy want to promote variety, which obviously is a good thing, it has to be seen in comparison with how the games actually turns out. And here I argue that the 2-1-1-jungle setup clearly promote less even games in comparison to the others (at least from gold brackets and below).

 

I am curious on your thoughs regarding the fact that 2-3 jungle hero is banned in almost every game. When we all can agree that jungle heros itself are not strictly OP.

 

Could it be an idea to increase the number of banned hero before picking phase? Then if a full team agree that they dislike jungle, they could simply ban them all.

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When jungle players were meta, nobody complained about jungle picks. Now, where 2-1-2 is viable, people tend to rage upon jungle picks.

Shellshock can be played on sui just fine btw. You got a free pull without putting yourself in danger. You have free lasthits without putting yourself in danger.

 

I like the fact that HoN provides the variety to play various lane setups..

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10 hours ago, Mezi said:

It is hilarious how you mange to come in here and post a reply showing that you dont get any of the points in this discussion over and over.  Your only argument is that you prefere passive low action games. That is your type of fun. Stay jungle and come out happy to fight with an advantage. 

There are no points in this discussion. All there is you asking for nerf for the jungle in terms of gold/exp gain simply because YOU don´t like the roles. I don´t know what kind of shithole games you are in but the games where I have jungler, for example Legionnaire, they get their PK well before 15 minute mark and start ganking.  Where the hell you get your 20-40 minutes afk farming is beyond me.

10 hours ago, Mezi said:

I never said I am special. I tried to explain to you that having a jungle and suicide in the majority of the games has not been common over the years of HoN and dota. You obviously are to narrowminding and ignorant to understand my argument or you have had tunnel vision in all of your 15 years of playing moba. You are just sad, try to come up with some arguments instead of saying that I am sitting on my high horse since I agree with another comment above in this disussion, that suicide role are literaly boring in the early game. I am totally aware that people like different things, thats why I try to ask if you find plessure in owning bots with a huge level and item advantage? You did not manage to answere, so I guess I know the answere. You like to think you are better than other players when you play with different prerequisites. I recon that you not mention that you ever play main support so... Im not surpriced on who you are in this player base!

Yeah you kinda did imply since you have been playing the game since beta which somehow is supposed to validate your opinion. Ofcourse they havent been common over the years.  I remember when going dual mid was meta. Thats the game. It evolves. People find new strategies. Your idea of fun apparently is to be stuck in 2-1-2 meta for 10 years.  If suicide role is boring for you then I suggest you open your mind to the possibility that not all people are like you. Some people enjoy suicide, some people enjoy jungle and to think that these people should change something because YOU don´t like it means you think your opinion matters more than theirs. Hence get off your high horse. What does bots have got to do with this discussion?

10 hours ago, Mezi said:

You cant read? I say I like to have this discussion becuase I think such a change would promote more even and fun games for everyone. Just becuse you disagree with me, you should be able to read and accept my thoughts? Maybe come up with some arguement for your case instead of throwing nosense out in the discussion over and over.

I´m supposed to come up with arguments when the only argument you come with is "I dont like jungle, nerf it". What a joke.

 

10 hours ago, Mezi said:

If YOU dont try to reply anything CONSTRUCTIVE in the future I will NOT BOTHER to reply to your post. I already wasted more than enough time trying to explain some easy understood points earlier in the discussion to you personally. This is mainly because you come with nonsense insults that dont hold proof. So please try to be objective on this topic and contribute to the discussion even though you are obvisouly offended by something and feel the need to defend your posistion with insulting the author.

The person whose whole reason to post this entire thread was because he personally doesn´t like Jungling is asking me to be objective. The person who labels junglers as somesort of scumbags in the playerbase is talking about nonsense insults. 

You asked why people ban so many jungle heroes. Maybe it´s because it means they have to counter it by ganking and warding their jungle. Why bother with that if you can just ban the heroes and sit 2-1-2 comfortably without a worry someone jumps out of jungle. It´s only because people are lazy, like you, to learn to counter different strategies. You claiming that it´s impossible to counter junglers is simply wrong and shows how little you know of this game.

Edited by ScrubFactory
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ScrubFactory, you slightly modify my words to fit with your counter arguments. I will give you one thing though, this is the first reply were you actually consider small parts of what have been mentioned earlier in the discussion. However, it is too bad that you manipulate the phrases so you can extract what you want and need to keep the impression that the whole thread is a flaw. You are refusing to comment on actual arguments which are directly linked to quotations you take from my posts. Any person which bother to read the whole discussion will clearly see my arguments and also understand why I open this thread the first time. I like fair even games, i could not care less about what role I play since I rotate between roles relatively often. You seems to have specific issues with some roles and care a lot more about keeping your role strong rather than even, balanced, good games.

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I read the whole discussion from start to end before I made a single post and didnt see any arguments that would support any changes to jungle. If you come up with legitimate reasons to tweak jungle I´m sure the developers would gladly listen to you. 

You claim that games where there are junglers are uneven, not fun and unbalanced. Okay. Great, where is the proof? Where are your statistics to support this claim? You have none. All you do is present anecdotal evidence about something that have happened in your games. Have they actually happened? We don´t know. You don´t present any hard proof. Developers are supposed to make pretty big changes to the game based on your personal opinions? That´s not going to happen. 

I don´t have any issues with any specific roles and I don´t know where you came up with that.

"Keeping my role strong rather than even balanced, good games".  I assume you think "my role" is jungler and therefore whenever I pick jungler the game is instantly uneven, unbalanced and not good. Yea, nothing wrong with that argument.

 

 

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1) I clearly stated multiple times that I dont have other evidence than my own experience.

2) I want to discuss and hear what other people think regarding the subject.

3) I think the jungle promote wrong type of gameplay (passive vs. active early gameplay). Of course many players can play a good jungler, but the fact is that a large majority of jungle players do not team play at all. They want purely to max-min their own early game at the cost of someone in their team. Hence the uneven resource distribution in the team are promoted by having a jungle hero. The suicide or roamer will not even gain the relatively recent boost  to support gain (orb of zamos).

4) I noticed that a majority of my games without any jungle hero at all are more even and hence generally brings more fun for all the players in the games.

5) Many trolls and griefers use jungle as refuge place. Which obviously cannot be punished.

6) Lower skilled players will enter the jungle regardless if it is good or not (e.g. pred, bh, ...). However, not too many cthul in jungle after the rework right? So maybe it could at least reduce the issue.

7) Why is so many jungle hero banned in every game? You argue that people are too lazy to counter a jungle hero... Too lazy? Are you for real? My thought is that it is too difficult to effective counter a jungle hero unless you have a full 5 man dedicated team. It simple cost too much time and money unless the whole team show some commitment. It is way too easy for a jungler to work around enemy wards and a few ganks here and there. It simply doesnt punish the jungler unless all the other lanes are getting stomped so he will get no space at all.

8 ) Maybe an increase number of bans before picking phase are suggested to give an option to ban all jungle hero if all team agrees on that.

9) Maybe a gamemode without xp/gold gain from jungle are suggested (which are highly unlikely because it will increase queue waiting time).

 

This were a quick recap of 9 points of discussion so far. I did not mention everything and I did not elaborate with the same context as earlier. However, it is quite clear to me that I have some valid bullet points of discussion here. The thread has also not been instantly shutdown. So I think at least some people share my thought that it is a healthy discussion, or at least that it could be. You suggest that the whole thread is flaw and that I only talk nonsense. In the end I also want to point out that I NEVER said that jungle is OP and it is not simply because I do not like the jungle/sucide/roamer role. It is the fact that I highly value even games with much active early gameplay. And I still posess the opinion that the jungle have many side effects that work against this gameplay.

Edited by Mezi
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Just now, Mezi said:

1) I clearly stated multiple times that I dont have other evidence than my own experience.

Which is why this whole thread is weak.

Just now, Mezi said:

2) I want to discuss and hear what other people think regarding the subject.

Clearly you don´t unless it is from someone who happens to agree with you. Otherwise you would understand some players enjoy suicide/jungling.

Just now, Mezi said:

3) I think the jungle promote wrong type of gameplay (passive vs. active early gameplay). Of course many players can play a good jungler, but the fact is that a large majority of jungle players do not team play at all. They want purely to max-min their own early game at the cost of someone in their team. Hence the uneven resource distribution in the team are promoted by having a jungle hero. The suicide or roamer will not even gain the relatively recent boost  to support gain (orb of zamos).

How does Jungle promote passive gameplay? Someone would argue that having a carry on safelane passively farming until he gets his items promotes passive gameplay. Just because YOU encounter a lot of passive junglers doesnt mean its the case for everybody. I also happen to think you exaggerate a lot. Junglers have a lot of gold to be gained from stacking and taking jungle. More maybe even than just staying on lane. Seems to be you are mad someone in the jungle has greater gold gain thanks to game mechanics than on the lane.  Orb of Zamos gives 8 gold per creep kill. If roamer happens to roam and get kills then that greatly outweighs the gains from Zamos.

Just now, Mezi said:

5) Many trolls and griefers use jungle as refuge place. Which obviously cannot be punished.

Okay? And your suggestion to be completely remove the jungle? And you honestly think that is legitimate suggestion?

Just now, Mezi said:

6) Lower skilled players will enter the jungle regardless if it is good or not (e.g. pred, bh, ...). However, not too many cthul in jungle after the rework right? So maybe it could at least reduce the issue.

Is it an issue? Lower skilled players are lower skilled because they have little experience. They gain experience by literally experiencing the game and if going to jungle just to try it out then that is their right to do so.

Just now, Mezi said:

7) Why is so many jungle hero banned in every game? You argue that people are too lazy to counter a jungle hero... Too lazy? Are you for real? My thought is that it is too difficult to effective counter a jungle hero unless you have a full 5 man dedicated team. It simple cost too much time and money unless the whole team show some commitment.

If you really think that it takes 5 people, an entire team to counter 1 jungler then you have a lot to learn about this game. If you find it too difficult to counter jungler then ask better players how they do it.

Just now, Mezi said:

8 ) Maybe an increase number of bans before picking phase are suggested to give an option to ban all jungle hero if all team agrees on that.

Sure if developers think more bans are warranted and you think that would make both teams ban only junglers the why not.

Just now, Mezi said:

9) Maybe a gamemode without xp/gold gain from jungle are suggested (which are highly unlikely because it will increase queue waiting time).

Do you even realize that jungle is important to carries as well? Where do carries go to farm when they get their cleaver/thunderclaw? Stay on lane? Go take farm from other lanes? Because that would be good distribution of resources, right?

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It's fairly easy to counter jungle players. Simply put some pressure on them. A strong dual lane, some offensive wards, even a suicide like grinex/scout/nh is a pain if you have a legio trying to get his PK. 

The biggest disadvantage of jungle heroes is that they lose their impact really quick. E.g. if legio does not manage to get his PK in time (~7-11min), he will not get "easy" kills on the enemy carry. If he does not get easy kills on the enemy carry, the enemy team will have a huge farming advantage at that time as their carry was free farming and a possible dual lane contested your carry. As carrys scale with farm, with evenly distrubuted skillsets it's almost impossible to win the game from that point on (we are talking about an even distribution of skill, not some mid player pubstomping).


If you lose to a jungle player, you likely did not put enough pressure on him. Freefarming junglers are an issue, however, freefarming is an issue in general. If I get my staff on xemplar before 15min, it really doesn't matter if the enemy team has a freefarming jungler or not (just 1 example).

 

Jungle causes lots of frustration to many people. I saw people starting to grief just because of a jungle pick. It's part of the game and you should not be generalizing people's gameplay as a jungler. It's a super fun role - if people intend to win games, they won't be afk for 30min in the jungle.

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You were asking for a discussion on a topic you brought up. If that's the outcome I can only wish you all the best for your future endeavors. I don't really know what you expected - nobody officially stated that there won't be any changes/nerfs to the jungle.

But it's highly unlikely that a full transition into a 2-1-2 meta will happen in the near future as it would require a lot of work and isn't really a desired approach anyway.. It may have worked out for games like Dota2 but it also required a lot of work and changes. Plus the goal should be to have every hero being playable/viable.

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We had 2-1-2 meta from like 2016/2017 (whenever Orb of Zamos was implemented into the game), so the last 4-5 years of the game. Before that we had the jungle meta - now we should theoretically have a healthy split of them. The issue is that you feel that despite this split, you're not having a good time with junglers on your team & that experience is largely subjective. It's fine to start a discussion on it as long as you're aware of that fact - I don't agree with changing anything right now.

Edited by ElementUser
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I skimmed through this thread and I can safely assume you are stuck in some rank like gold, where basically everybody plays for themselves.

Thing is, 2-1-2 is still the most viable meta and junglers in team are most of the time, just soakers.

When I dual Q, me and my friend usually go dual long because it is fun.

Also you mentioned that jungle meta was never more popular which is not true, 1-2 years pre 4.0, every game literally consisted of a jungler which is what I hated, because it was boring.

Basically to sum up my thoughts - I think this meta in terms of lanning is really healthy and I can only see that you have some issues with your lower rank games, where basically people are too selfish and egoistic, maybe if you become good, you can climb up and get out of that torture you are in.

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Jungle Heroes need to have a place in game.
You may dislike it but some people not. You cant force the meta destroy the jungle so everyone will go 2-1-2. No matter how you nerf or buff those neutral creep, there is still people keep picking jungle heroes and you must deal with it

They are part of this game.

Edited by w3_StarBoy

HoN SEA Player

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Since few people actually bothered to comment in the thread after I wanted to abonden the discussion, I shall swallom my pride and give the comment you deserve.

 

First, Hegelsohn, I did not expect that the reply that seemingly put in the most effort was from someone that simply wanted to call my claims for anectodal nonsense. That my telling of personal game experience were not trustworthy at all. That I should simply get better or stop cry. How can I possible want to continue in a discussion that were more concerned about trying to make me and the thread a flaw rather than actually argue for why the jungle and meta should stay as it is. This are the only reason why I felt the need to abandon this discussion. Also, I did not expect any changes to happend in the near future for a thread like this, however, what I did hope for was some good arguments from more than simply my subjective reflections from recent games. To say that I present lies since its subjective is to me not fair at all.

 

Then, ElementUser, if you say that we had more jungle picks 4-5 years ago, I will not argue against this since I am confident that you know your facts. However, it does not change the fact that I face 1, 2 or 3 jungle hero in a huge majority of my games. Maybe it is because I play mostly in gold rank but I cannot answere this question. But as an example, I entered a random streamer that were playing in the legendary rank yesterday. The first game they play 2-1-2 vs 2-1-1-jungle and they stomp enemy for a quick 18 or 19 min concede. The second game, they play also vs a jungle, this time a legio which has a level advantage the whole game and turns out to be the desciding factor for their loss. The third game, also against a jungle, this time its a draconis also with huge level advantage which in the end are the main reason that enemy team hold long enough for their carry to win the game. Maybe this three games are not representative for the general games played at higher ranks. However, when legendary players which not solo queue cannot shutdown a jungle without making it a rapid conceede it tells my that there is some hold in my claims. When people tell me that it is easy to counter a jungle with a few wards and some pressure. Is not realistic at all. I will give another example, two days ago I played hag mid and dominated my enemy (2-3 quick kills and free farm). I buy wards and run after legio every rune and ulti cd. I think I killed him 0-3 before it was 15 min. However, legio was still the only enemy factor that game and I simply could not stop him from gaining the quick gold/xp alone. Obviously I know that HoN is a team game, and I cannot blame game mechanics for playing with bad players. But when people answere my thread with saying its easy to counter jungle and I that I should simply get better instead of complaining. It feels like they do not even try to put themself in a similar situation. I guess I am a person that suffer the most since Im stuck with solo queue in gold brackets, but this does not make my claims to lies. Maybe its not enough to do any drastic, or even minor changes at all, but it should be of high interest for everyone in this community to work towards a game which promote even and fun games at all brackets. The player base is already a huge challange for HoN, a the steep learning curve and harsh toxicity towards player mistakes makes it rare to grab new players. So if no one consider the dark sides of the game because it is theoreticly at a good posistion now, how can this change? This dragged a bit out from what I originally wanted to reply for you ElementUser, oh well..

 

Finally, Diabetis, you are the first person that actually aknowledge the real suffering for many players like my self. As I mention above, since I am mainly solo queing in gold rank I am probably in the segment of players that suffers the most, just as you point out. I want to add one thing though, I do not think its fair to say that I should simply get better. To be honest, many years ago I played in the top 100 mmr and I know that I am far away from the best players today. My reactions are slower, my item and hero knowledge is also worse, however, much of the fundamental gamesense are still here. So to simply say that I should get better when I want to enjoy the game as a casual gamer with limited time due to kids and a full job, is to me not fair. I can easely understand that the whole jungle cannot be omitted simply because it ruins many games for some specific player base. Yet I think its a good idea to look for ideas to improve the game in any way you can possible imagine. It is actually too frustrating for me to waste precious gaming time with uneven 15 min concede games. Too many good players abuse the fact that it is so easy to stomp these games with no effort because of the sitation in jungle. I can name examples as 1200 xpm draco, 1000gpm salo, 30-0 parasite, +8 levels legio, etc.

 

In the end, I totally agree with you w3_Startboy. The problem is that I am of the experience that it ruins too many games for at least some segments of the player base. I still waiting for a good argument explaining why 2-3 or even more jungle heros are banned in every game unless there are more people like me. I want to repeat the suggestion to increase the number of possible bans, this might be the most realistic change that would actually differensiate fair between ranks. The brackets with larger issues can actually handle it without ruin the game for the people that actually think its totally viable and not a reason for unbalanced games. Then we can analyse what heros that will be banned and consider that for future changes.

Edited by Mezi
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4 hours ago, Mezi said:

Since few people actually bothered to comment in the thread after I wanted to abonden the discussion, I shall swallom my pride and give the comment you deserve.

 

First, Hegelsohn, I did not expect that the reply that seemingly put in the most effort was from someone that simply wanted to call my claims for anectodal nonsense. That my telling of personal game experience were not trustworthy at all. That I should simply get better or stop cry. How can I possible want to continue in a discussion that were more concerned about trying to make me and the thread a flaw rather than actually argue for why the jungle and meta should stay as it is. This are the only reason why I felt the need to abandon this discussion. Also, I did not expect any changes to happend in the near future for a thread like this, however, what I did hope for was some good arguments from more than simply my subjective reflections from recent games. To say that I present lies since its subjective is to me not fair at all.

 

Then, ElementUser, if you say that we had more jungle picks 4-5 years ago, I will not argue against this since I am confident that you know your facts. However, it does not change the fact that I face 1, 2 or 3 jungle hero in a huge majority of my games. Maybe it is because I play mostly in gold rank but I cannot answere this question. But as an example, I entered a random streamer that were playing in the legendary rank yesterday. The first game they play 2-1-2 vs 2-1-1-jungle and they stomp enemy for a quick 18 or 19 min concede. The second game, they play also vs a jungle, this time a legio which has a level advantage the whole game and turns out to be the desciding factor for their loss. The third game, also against a jungle, this time its a draconis also with huge level advantage which in the end are the main reason that enemy team hold long enough for their carry to win the game. Maybe this three games are not representative for the general games played at higher ranks. However, when legendary players which not solo queue cannot shutdown a jungle without making it a rapid conceede it tells my that there is some hold in my claims. When people tell me that it is easy to counter a jungle with a few wards and some pressure. Is not realistic at all. I will give another example, two days ago I played hag mid and dominated my enemy (2-3 quick kills and free farm). I buy wards and run after legio every rune and ulti cd. I think I killed him 0-3 before it was 15 min. However, legio was still the only enemy factor that game and I simply could not stop him from gaining the quick gold/xp alone. Obviously I know that HoN is a team game, and I cannot blame game mechanics for playing with bad players. But when people answere my thread with saying its easy to counter jungle and I that I should simply get better instead of complaining. It feels like they do not even try to put themself in a similar situation. I guess I am a person that suffer the most since Im stuck with solo queue in gold brackets, but this does not make my claims to lies. Maybe its not enough to do any drastic, or even minor changes at all, but it should be of high interest for everyone in this community to work towards a game which promote even and fun games at all brackets. The player base is already a huge challange for HoN, a the steep learning curve and harsh toxicity towards player mistakes makes it rare to grab new players. So if no one consider the dark sides of the game because it is theoreticly at a good posistion now, how can this change? This dragged a bit out from what I originally wanted to reply for you ElementUser, oh well..

 

Finally, Diabetis, you are the first person that actually aknowledge the real suffering for many players like my self. As I mention above, since I am mainly solo queing in gold rank I am probably in the segment of players that suffers the most, just as you point out. I want to add one thing though, I do not think its fair to say that I should simply get better. To be honest, many years ago I played in the top 100 mmr and I know that I am far away from the best players today. My reactions are slower, my item and hero knowledge is also worse, however, much of the fundamental gamesense are still here. So to simply say that I should get better when I want to enjoy the game as a casual gamer with limited time due to kids and a full job, is to me not fair. I can easely understand that the whole jungle cannot be omitted simply because it ruins many games for some specific player base. Yet I think its a good idea to look for ideas to improve the game in any way you can possible imagine. It is actually too frustrating for me to waste precious gaming time with uneven 15 min concede games. Too many good players abuse the fact that it is so easy to stomp these games with no effort because of the sitation in jungle. I can name examples as 1200 xpm draco, 1000gpm salo, 30-0 parasite, +8 levels legio, etc.

 

In the end, I totally agree with you w3_Startboy. The problem is that I am of the experience that it ruins too many games for at least some segments of the player base. I still waiting for a good argument explaining why 2-3 or even more jungle heros are banned in every game unless there are more people like me. I want to repeat the suggestion to increase the number of possible bans, this might be the most realistic change that would actually differensiate fair between ranks. The brackets with larger issues can actually handle it without ruin the game for the people that actually think its totally viable and not a reason for unbalanced games. Then we can analyse what heros that will be banned and consider that for future changes.

To address your point about junglers tending to overwhelming games, I don't argue that it could be true for the sampling of games you've played/watched on stream, but in the grand scheme of things that idea doesn't hold up with the data. Below are win% of the most common junglers pulled directly from Hero Usage % (which can be viewed in the Learnatorium section in-game) :

1. Solstice 47%W / 53%L

2. Legionnaire: 51%W / 49%L

3. Parasite: 51%W / 49%L

4. Draconis: 51%W / 49%L

5. Salomon: 48%W / 52%L

6. Tempest: 49%W / 51%L

7. Keeper of the Forest: 51%W / 49%L

8. Warbeast: 50%W / 50%L

9. Wildsoul: 44%W / 56%L

10. Ophelia: 53%W / 47%L

It's true these numbers are based on the aggregate, and for certain segments of the population some of those junglers could be overperforming. But you pointed out you mostly play in Gold bracket, which I believe constitutes either the largest or second largest segment of the current HoN population, and therefore would contribute most significantly to the ratios above.

To provide another perspective, no jungler hero features in the top 10 heroes ranked by win% (also from the Learnatorium). If you count Zephyr as a jungler, then the first time a jungle features in the highest win% heroes would be in rank 17. Followed by Keeper at rank 26 and Legionnaire at rank 30. So I'm not yet convinced that a 51%W average for some of the most popular junglers suggests that teams with junglers are significantly better off than 2-1-2 teams, not to mention that the no.1 most picked jungler (Solstice) actually has a 47%W average.

Overall, I can believe that a proportion of games will involve a jungler snowballing and taking over the game, just as I believe some number of games will also involve a duo offlane shutting down the enemy carry and mid, and thus taking over the game. I just don't see with the numbers we have that the jungle meta is a problem, at least from a balance perspective.

Edited by AgentZer0
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AgentZer0, I am well aware of these stats and I am also a little surpriced that no one brought this up earlier. However, I will try to expain why I do not think this data set are too relevant for the discussion itself. But first I want to point out that it would be of high interst to have the posibility to sort this data between ranks, game lengths, amount of kills, time of kills etc. Many games offers this type of data analysis and often developers only consider the pro scene numbers when doing balance changes. Either way, this option would give a lot of insight for everyone to evaluate the current performance of various aspect of the game and I strongly recommend such sorting implemented in the game.

The reason I dont think win percentage are essential for the discussion is because it more common to see 2-1-1-jungle on both sides which obviosuly will generate 1 win and 1 loss for every such game. The other reason is that I never said that jungle hero out perform 2-1-2, however, I argue that jungle hero force uneven 15 min cc games. This also goes both ways, sometimes 2-1-2 stomp and sometimes the 2-1-1-jungle stompes. Either way, it balances on win percentage. I will add though, when 2-1-1-jungle setup stomp it is almost never due to the jungle but rather that his team do all the work and give him free space to come out at 15min will too huge advantage. The third reason is what you already mentioned yourself, this is highly brackets dependent and overall stats doesnt realy mean much when it is proposed that the issue are much more frequently in some segments.

I want to comment on the most played hero stats though. If you generalize the hero choises a little and sort between farming hero, non farming hero and jungle. It should be easily seen that the most common distrubution in every game is 3 farmers (where 1 is jungle if jungle), and 2 non farmers. This means that the general probabillity for a jungle to be picked compared to other heros are less because of the fact that 1 game generate typically 2 jungle slots, 4 no farmer slots and 4 no jungle farmer slots. It will then be nessecary to have a weighting function to actually see a realistic fraction of jungle hero played. So when hero such as solstice are topping the list with clear numbers, this means that he is played A LOT.

Anyway, remember the goal here, I want the majority of games played to be even. I do not think it is much fun to stomp someone 20-0 so they conceed at the 15 min mark. My starting motivation for this thread was because I play too many games that simply are never a real game. Its won to quick, and I experience this to happend more frequencly (both ways) with jungle heros in the games. And I belive the reason is because a jungle hero promote unequal distrubution of resources, either well overfarmed, or well underfarmed. Hence the request to work on somthing that promote more even games.

 

edit: PS: I want to mention, yesterday I saw another 5 games from a immortal rank streamer, 4 with jungle and 1 without. Also my first game today. My team mate instant call jungle and at the same time 4 jungle hero got banned. I mean, maybe it was jungle in 100% of the games for 4-5 years ago, but it is clearly showing a high percentile today as well.

Edited by Mezi
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In high TMM, putting too much effort on suicide lane is high risk, that's why it's better if one fail but four fat. Having one jungle hero mean you can control your safe lane, rune better and let supporter do his job to protect carry.

In high TMM, having your carry fat mean you'll have the chance to turn the tabble. And If your jungle is also carry (wild soul, Draconic, Salomon), they will also do their job same as your carry.

The meta 2-1-2 only good in decent TMM and rare see in high TMM, There is even a game where people abadon suicide lane, going roam early game and going back to hit exp.

HoN SEA Player

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6 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

The meta 2-1-2 only good in decent TMM and rare see in high TMM, There is even a game where people abadon suicide lane, going roam early game and going back to hit exp.

I have to disagree here. Having a wildsoul/carry in jungle is horrible, also in high TMM. Unless he is fully slotted 12min into the game, he does more harm then good as he consumes too much farm on the map for the abilities he has.

Also, only 2 jungle heroes are really capable of helping to win shortlane (Parasite, Ophelia). Rest needs early farm to transition into mid game. A decent offlane only needs to be afraid of those 2 jungle heroes while their own carry has full freefarm.

 

The jungle to protect safe lane/abbandon long lane strat has always been popular among the brackets - it's nothing new - 2-1-2 is still superior.

Edited by hegelsohn
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