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I want to suggest a balance change that promote active gameplay instead of passive jungle farming. The current meta is that 1 player instant call jungle and stay there until he/her have level and item advantages which is kind of impossible to contest unless you are a dedicated team. It also promote smurf accounts to troll around in lower brackets because it is so easy to dominate games. With this in mind, I understand that some might argue that jungle heros are not OP, however, it surely ruin the active pvp play in laning phase which in my opinion are a huge part of the fun while playing HoN. To have a meta that promote inequalites between players and hiding until lategame removes a lot of the fun in any MOBA. Remember, most of the trolling also happen in such a way that someone in the team "afk" farming jungle because they are angry for some reason. I think HoN would take a great path towards less trolling and better gameplay if the XP and Gold gain from jungel are drasticly reduced. I never understood why people think its so much fun to "afk" farm jungle in 20-40min and then come out with +X levels and full gear which remove their chance to show any skilled play at all. I could expressed this idea in much more details but I am confident that the major point are clear and I am looking forwards to hear what people think about this. Please ask your self the following questions:

1. How many of your last games did not have 2 jungle hero?

2. How many of your last games did not have 1 jungle hero?

3. How many of the jungle heros are typically banned?

4. How many of your last games are clearly dominated by a jungle hero?

5. How much skill is required to do well in jungle?

...

I dont want to play only endgame, it already feels like we are playing casual mode with all the additional gold gains that have been implemented.

 

This suggestion are mainly concerned about a fundamental style of HoN and not balance. Active PVP laning phase are a lot of fun!

 

Best wishes

 

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Hi Mezi ,

 

I do agree that almost every game someone is calling jungle and yes , most of the time he afks in it for about 15-20 min.But , with the "meta" that is going on at the moment , letting a free farm carry farm on the opposite team while your own team has a jungler and your own carry is dealing in a 2v2 lane when he isn't farming that much isn't worth the "free farming jungler". I mean of course it is my personnal opinion 😛 The thing I can also agree on is , I feel like there is only 1 way to jungle and it makes it very easy for every player to do really well in it..so yeah maybe a little bit of change could bring some different build/farm in the forest.

 

Good day everyone

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I mentioned it in an earlier post but I feel the buffs to jungle e.g. taking on medium + hard camp at same point, can drink potions while taking damage etc. were necessary to prevent the team that has a jungle to be too disadvantaged versus a team that doesn't run junglers. Even if gold/xp gains from jungling are very bad, you can't really stop anyone outside of high bracket games to forgo jungle if they're just keen on not playing with a teammate. Hell, nerfing Pred's E so he 100% can't jungle anymore still didn't stop stubborn players still pushing for it just so they can play alone. Making jungle easier reduces punishment on the jungler's teammates since you can more reliably expect the jungler to have decent farm + levels rather than fail outright for not being able to jungle like a pro.

I can't answer 1) and 2) since honbot is down and I'm too lazy to open my recent matches, but I can tell you for sure that for 3), 2-4 jungle heroes are banned in almost every game (Gold - Diamond) I play, 4) I don't recall a jungler seriously dominating any game (which I feel is a good thing), and 5) not much skill, which again I think is a good thing as outlined above. 

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On 1/8/2021 at 9:13 PM, littlehood3 said:

letting a free farm carry farm on the opposite team while your own team has a jungler and your own carry is dealing in a 2v2 lane when he isn't farming that much isn't worth the "free farming jungler"

I can agree with this argument in most games with dedicated teams. However, as argue in my post, the problem is not nessaccary a strictly balance issue, but rather a gameplay issue in my opinion. Most games are not played with full 5 man teams trying to max-min everything in the game, but rather smaller groups mixed together which only hope to find fun in even games without any rage or troll. From my experience throughout the silver and gold bracket, the most even and therefore fun games are those with no jungle hero on both sides. The games are often more even and players can actually do a mistake or two without losing the game instantly. I want to promote active gameplay.

 

3 hours ago, AgentZer0 said:

Hell, nerfing Pred's E so he 100% can't jungle anymore still didn't stop stubborn players still pushing for it just so they can play alone. Making jungle easier reduces punishment on the jungler's teammates since you can more reliably expect the jungler to have decent farm + levels rather than fail outright for not being able to jungle like a pro.

This is a good point, similar to a 200 gpm BH in the jungle which actually happens in lower brackets. Yet I will argue that a hero such as Cthuluphant is almost never seen in the jungle anymore? So people seems to dodge jungle heros which are nerfed to some extent. Hence I think it would reduce unbalanced games with a nerf to general gold/xp gain from jungle. I will also add that I have a strong feeling without evidence that I more often face a unrealisticly strong jungle hero with +5 to 10 levels and full gear in 20min beacuse of people know how to abuse it against random passive enemy teams. This is of course because people know what to do, stacking and so on.. And its much easier to do this as a duo compared to counter it in a random team. Similarly I do not think this arguemnt remove my initial argument that this jungle meta promote what a call "less even", "less fun", 15 min cc "walk-over" games. Of course I say this without any statisticly evidence so I might not be totally correct. However, I recon that at least Solstice and Legio have been in the very top end of winning rates for quite some time.

 

3 hours ago, AgentZer0 said:

5) not much skill, which again I think is a good thing as outlined above. 

Remember that another team mate are most often sacrificed to play a much more difficult task for this reason. And this person are often flamed for feeding or having no impact on the game when it is typically forced on the player to play main support or suicide in almost every game unless you quickly call a different role.

 

In the end I want to emphasis again that I realy want to promote active early gameplay where you actually can do a mistake or two without losing the game instantly. And I think jungle heros are doing the opposite to this. Jungle meta promote increased differences between team mates and a more passive gameplay in general. Which in my opinion is a pity, as the most fun happens during the game and not in the final desciding fight of the game.

I appreciate the feedback to the discussion and hope more people will follow up and give their opinion on this subject.

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There is quite some skill required to jungle. Not to farm but to make the correct decisions. If you face a dual offlane and your carry is in danger or your mid is having problems, it's the junglers job to make wise decisions to support those lanes. As the enemy carry lane will easily win vs a suicide, you need to make sure that you win the other 2 lanes to stand a chance.

I barely saw any dominating junglers lately. I do see people picking jungle, but they are barely doing good. 2-1-2 is superior imho. It also depends on the bracket I guess. In lower brackets the carry misses last hits even uncontested so junglers might be stronger. But in higher brackets I'd say that's not the case.

 

I agree - early active gameplay is much more fun. 2-1-2 is also way more fun than having a jungle. Unlike dota2 it's not really possible in HoN to make heroes like legio or parasite viable on lane without bigger changes.. 

In the end it's up to the players to realize what's the best way to win. And many people have no trust in their teammates from the start therefor they prefer the jungle.

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21 hours ago, hegelsohn said:

There is quite some skill required to jungle. Not to farm but to make the correct decisions. If you face a dual offlane and your carry is in danger or your mid is having problems, it's the junglers job to make wise decisions to support those lanes. As the enemy carry lane will easily win vs a suicide, you need to make sure that you win the other 2 lanes to stand a chance.

I cannot say anything against this comment, but it feels very theoretical. Maybe in higher brackets and in full 5 man teams this is the case, but I want to argue that the type of jungler you explain here is extreemly rare in the majority of games. The jungler are in almost every case only doing things for self gain. If you ask for a ward or a gank, you would be surpriced to even get any resonse at all. This is of course not actually an issue with the game, and it might feels unfair to blame the jungle for such plays. However, the fact is that the current jungle give this option which I argue is unlucky for the gameplay that we both seems to value.

21 hours ago, hegelsohn said:

I barely saw any dominating junglers lately. I do see people picking jungle, but they are barely doing good. 2-1-2 is superior imho. It also depends on the bracket I guess. In lower brackets the carry misses last hits even uncontested so junglers might be stronger. But in higher brackets I'd say that's not the case.

Again your point is hard to argue against. But when you see draco with 1200 xpm, Salo with full gear in 18 min or parasite that dont need to do anything to grab a 12 min mock in lower brackets, it is basicly impossible to play fair game. Hence a jungle nerf could remove such a unbalanced exploit of the current jungle camps. I mean, even if jungle is not OP, and especially not in higher brackets, a heavy gold/xp nerf would be even to both sides and will at least not risk the game to become less fair and promote even games.

 

I do see the problem that low skilled players will chose to go in jungle anyway, even if it is a bad idea for your team in general, but I think those games are more even than the "low-end" of what we can define as relatively good players which actually know how to exploit some aspect of the games that is almost impossible to contest unless you are a full 5 man team. To argue that this is a player fault rather than a game related issue is fine, but it do not change the fact that many games ends in 15 min cc or 40-50 min game with below 10 total kills. Which is the main argument to discuss if it could be a good thing to nerf the jungle to promote 2-1-2 gameplay.

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If you nerf the jungle to an extend where it's not worth going into the jungle, you make legio and parasite more or less useless.

It would require way more changes than just nerfing the jungle and those changes also need to be balanced. I don't see that coming in the near future - maybe slowly.. 

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25 minutes ago, hegelsohn said:

If you nerf the jungle to an extend where it's not worth going into the jungle, you make legio and parasite more or less useless.

This is exactly what followers of my point of view want. Its a reason why jungle hero are most played and at the same time most banned. The current meta is overcrowded with jungle picks and a huge amount of those games are not even and not fun. Would it be so sad to see less jungle hero for a while to promote good even 2-1-2 games. A major argument is also that this could actually help against trolls that would not troll in jungle playing "solo".

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I´ve begun to believe that going to suicide lane is pointless. You will rarely have any impact on the farming speed of the enemy carry and you will get boxed out when playing against good support/carry. On top of this suicides also tend to give enemy carries extra gold/exp for dying. I think its wiser to pick roaming hero as "suicide" and leech exp from hard lane when the opportunity rises. Other times just roam around and get your mid, bot or jungler hero some kills.

I dont think jungler is the most played role. If you have to say that in majority of games there is a jungler then that already means that maybe there is some other role in every single game that gets played. Like a carry. 

Edited by ScrubFactory
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It really depends on the sui hero. Those who can obtain easy lane control by denying creeps or being able to safely pull the lane are still a problem for the carry and can do enough harm to gain an advantage while getting some levels. There are plenty of juke spots to grab a level here and there when it's not possible to pull the lane. I agree that decent supports can still manage to "win" the short lane for the carry but it's not like suicide heroes don't stand a chance. Heroes like PR are really strong on sui. Heroes like phara and chipper can safely pull camps without getting themselfes in danger. Invis heroes are always a threat for cutting and pulling lanes while supports can't really prevent that. Wards can be used to block pull camps to keep the lane control - that works in both directions. A PR blocking pull camps is a pain, especially when the wards are not placed in obvious places - it takes time to find and deward them to regain lane control.

It's still an underestimated role and map changes brought plenty of variety to it. 

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15 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

I dont think jungler is the most played role. If you have to say that in majority of games there is a jungler then that already means that maybe there is some other role in every single game that gets played. Like a carry. 

The point is obviously to analyse games with 1, 2 or even 3 jungle hero against 0. Which then comes down to my choice of phrase "majority of games" since I dont have the actual statistics here. I will also aknowledge that this probably differ a lot between brackets (where I indicate that high silver / low gold brackets have the most issues ragarding this). There are literaly no counter play that is realistic that players will manage available at that level.

 

11 hours ago, hegelsohn said:

It's still an underestimated role and map changes brought plenty of variety to it. 

There is no doubt that it is possible to do well as suicide. The problem is that this require far more skill than enter the jungle and relatively often the suicide and main support roles are the two left over roles. This means that very often lower skilled players are forced to play the more difficult roles for later getting flamed if their team are not doing too well. The whole idea with a jungle hero is that the team sacrifice a suicide player in such a way that the jungler gets a "free ride" to gain items and levels. Of course this was a solid option to not waste the early game of two players facing a 3 lane which they could do nothing. However, this has changed from a counter play to the standard meta in many brackets which lead up to the discussion.

Is it time to see less jungle hero and promote active 2+1+2 gameplay? Hero balance have been a major part of gameplay rotation when it comes down to what heros that are played. I personally think the whole community will gain more even and fun games with less jungle heros picked. The role simply promote uneven distribution of resoruces and give "smurfs" an easy job to troll games.

Until know, the most legit argument Ive seen against a general gold/xp nerf to jungle is the fact that it helps beginners/noobs to not do aweful, yet they are still useless with a jungle hero at higher brackets.

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6 minutes ago, Mezi said:

Until know, the most legit argument Ive seen against a general gold/xp nerf to jungle is the fact that it helps beginners/noobs to not do aweful, yet they are still useless with a jungle hero at higher brackets.

I want to elaborate a little on this comment. There has obviously been many good arguments for why the current jungle situations is not a problem, simply because it is not OP strictly speeking. However, it does not argue against why a general gold/xp nerf to jungle could be a good thing. By rotating away from salomon, solstice, legio, parasite, draco (which obviously also can do well in lanes, especially in lower brackets) the current meta can be changed. In my experience, the most even and fun games I had the last months have been without any jungle hero. From the above, I argue that the only legit negative side of implementing this change is that it will cause beginners and noobs a more difficult time in the game. Atleast they are forced to communicate with other players and maybe gain some other skills like team play because of this.

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I see a huge flaw in your argument. You argue that in lower brackets the problem is the most severe. You then also say that one way to fix the problem is to nerf exp/gold for jungle creeps. Do you honestly think that lower bracket players care if jungle creeps give a bit less gold and experience? Would the majority of these players even read changelogs? I mean the nerf to Predator lifesteal not working until lvl 3 was to discourage people from going to jungle with him. What happened? People still went to jungle with him.

If you nerf gold/exp gain for jungle creeps all you accomplish is less farmed and lower level jungler. As your issue is with lower bracket games I think you would shoot yourself in the foot with this nerf.

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3 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

I see a huge flaw in your argument. You argue that in lower brackets the problem is the most severe. You then also say that one way to fix the problem is to nerf exp/gold for jungle creeps. Do you honestly think that lower bracket players care if jungle creeps give a bit less gold and experience? Would the majority of these players even read changelogs? I mean the nerf to Predator lifesteal not working until lvl 3 was to discourage people from going to jungle with him. What happened? People still went to jungle with him.

If you nerf gold/exp gain for jungle creeps all you accomplish is less farmed and lower level jungler. As your issue is with lower bracket games I think you would shoot yourself in the foot with this nerf.

You are obviously not getting a single part of the discussion. Please read it again. The argument is that jungle heros promote uneven, more passive, easier to troll and less fun games than the 2+1+2 setup.

 

Your example has also already been discussed.

On 1/9/2021 at 11:34 PM, Mezi said:
On 1/9/2021 at 7:54 PM, AgentZer0 said:

Hell, nerfing Pred's E so he 100% can't jungle anymore still didn't stop stubborn players still pushing for it just so they can play alone. Making jungle easier reduces punishment on the jungler's teammates since you can more reliably expect the jungler to have decent farm + levels rather than fail outright for not being able to jungle like a pro.

This is a good point, similar to a 200 gpm BH in the jungle which actually happens in lower brackets. Yet I will argue that a hero such as Cthuluphant is almost never seen in the jungle anymore? So people seems to dodge jungle heros which are nerfed to some extent. Hence I think it would reduce unbalanced games with a nerf to general gold/xp gain from jungle. I will also add that I have a strong feeling without evidence that I more often face a unrealisticly strong jungle hero with +5 to 10 levels and full gear in 20min beacuse of people know how to abuse it against random passive enemy teams. This is of course because people know what to do, stacking and so on.. And its much easier to do this as a duo compared to counter it in a random team. Similarly I do not think this arguemnt remove my initial argument that this jungle meta promote what a call "less even", "less fun", 15 min cc "walk-over" games. Of course I say this without any statisticly evidence so I might not be totally correct. However, I recon that at least Solstice and Legio have been in the very top end of winning rates for quite some time.

 

 

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How is the game uneven, if both teams have junglers?  I don´t think you are someone to say that 2+1+2 is more fun to someone who enjoys playing jungler heroes. Or someone who enjoys playing suicide role. You got some arrogance suggesting to basically remove two roles in the game just because you dont like the game you are in.

 

 

Edited by ScrubFactory
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Playing suicide role never fun if you ask me. Only few heroes fit with that role, and can farm as the same times, The rest just hitting exp or running around. It's fun if you 1vs1 with the enemy while put your eyes on mini map to avoid ganking from juingle.

Edited by w3_StarBoy

HoN SEA Player

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1 hour ago, w3_StarBoy said:

Playing suicide role never fun if you ask me. Only few heroes fit with that role, and can farm as the same times, The rest just hitting exp or running around. It's fun if you 1vs1 with the enemy while put your eyes on mini map to avoid ganking from juingle.

Everyone like their own roles. I dont see why Jungle or Suicide players should lose a piece of the game just because someone doesnt agree with jungle heroes.

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10 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

How is the game uneven, if both teams have junglers?  I don´t think you are someone to say that 2+1+2 is more fun to someone who enjoys playing jungler heroes. Or someone who enjoys playing suicide role. You got some arrogance suggesting to basically remove two roles in the game just because you dont like the game you are in.

First you enter a discussion without reading the content. Then you reply with saying that my opinion is worthless and that I am arrogant to suggest a change of the meta because I dislike the current meta. I will tell you one thing little padawan, I played HoN since 2009 in the closed beta, before that I played dota for who kows how many years in wc3, I have never played it competetive but purely for fun. I can say with confidence that it has never been more jungle picks in the history of my time in moba. And I have never experienced more uneven 15min cc games than I do today (which mostly happend when there is 1, 2 or 3 jungle heros in the game). To say that I am arrogant to suggest something that I obviously belive will improve the game for the better is the same as saying that the creaters of HoN were never right to change anything from the original version in the first place. I open this discussion with one aim, to discuss something that I and many others dislike with the current meta. The game has not been like this for ever and you are obvisouly offended by something. I assume that you are one of those who actually take advantage of the current state of the jungle since you have not put forward one argument why it is important to keep the jungle as it is. Rather trying to insult my opinion and the discussion itself.

 

The fact is that the jungle role is generally speaking much easier to do well compared to any other role in the game (you need LESS skill to play this role).

The fact is that a jungle hero will generally not contribute to active early gameplay in most games (passive early game remove an essensial part of the game).

The fact is that good players can easily abuse the current jungle in such a way that is impossible to counter this unless you have full 5 man dedicated team.

The fact is that many trolls hide in jungle when they are angry.

The fact is that one team mate are sacrificed to play a much harder role without items or support often against their will.

The fact is that at least 2-3 maybe even more jungle hero are banned in every game (still people pick the remaining jungle heros).

 

I experience that almost every game without any jungle hero are generally more even and hence more fun. You might think its cool to have 20-0 with a jungle hero? I do not. To have a 50 min game that go back and forth multiple times, that is what most players think is fun.

 

I personally think the game would be better for the whole community if we see more 2+1+2 and less jungle. If I could descide I would even be as drastic to suggest a map without a jungle at all to gain some insight on how the game would turn out. This is probably unrealistic as the current player base are so low that developers are highly restrictive to introduce mulitple game modes and obviously also new games modes.

 

 

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9 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

Playing suicide role never fun if you ask me. Only few heroes fit with that role, and can farm as the same times, The rest just hitting exp or running around. It's fun if you 1vs1 with the enemy while put your eyes on mini map to avoid ganking from juingle.

I totally agree with you. Sitting passive until team fights occur is not considered fun in my head. Yes you can find fun later, but that does not argue against why you should not have fun from the first minute of gameplay.

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7 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

Everyone like their own roles. I dont see why Jungle or Suicide players should lose a piece of the game just because someone doesnt agree with jungle heroes.

Sounds like you only play jungle in every game. Have you ever considered to play single player against bots? Does this give you the same amount of joy? This might sound offensive but I legit wonder if that could be possible. Since you obvisouly like to start a fight with level and item advantage compored to enemy players (and team mates for that matter).

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I do happen to play fair bit of Jungle heroes. I also happen to play quite a bit of Suicide roles. I also happen to play quite a bit of carry and support heroes. Some games I play mid. I play all the roles the game offers. How narrowminded it is of you to judge people by their likes. Oh! Mezi think suicide role is not fun I guess the entire playerbase now has to stop playing Suicide and Jungle roles, right? Get off your high horse. I also have played Dota, I also started playing HoN when it was in closed Beta, I payed 30 dollars for my account when the beta ended. I also happened to buy another account for 5 dollars when there was sale and gave my original account to a friend so he can play. You are not somekind of special person here, there are a lot of people just like you and me who played Dota before HoN and even games that came before Dota. So i suggest you get off your high horse.

You actually think about removing jungle altogether just because YOU don´t like it. Do you even listen to yourself? You then proceed to call the playerbase "slow" so developers wouldnt even consider adding a "game mode without jungle". You lack any real statistics. Its you and "other" players. Who? Why don´t we see more threads about jungle being a problem if it actually is a problem? All your examples are anecdotal. If you don´t like having 3 jungle heroes in your games then maybe try to get out of low rank? The most I see in my games is 1 jungle each side. 2 junglers one side if someone happens to accidently random one. And these games are extremely rare. So I don´t know what kind of shithole rank you are in that u have up to 3 jungler heroes in a lot of games.

You also arguing that jungle should be basically made obsolete because someone might get mad and go hide in jungle. Maybe FB should shutdown the game because someone might hurt your feelings in game?

"I never understood why people think its so much fun to "afk" farm jungle in 20-40min and then come out with +X levels and full gear which remove their chance to show any skilled play at all." Kinda summarizes the problem of this entire thread. You not understanding or not wanting to understand how someone might like a role you dislike.

/endrant

Edited by ScrubFactory
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The general philosophy is to keep the lane combinations (2-1-2, 2-1-1-jungle, 3-1-1, and any pseudo-roaming variant in between) have different pros & cons with comparable viability between each other, done in such a manner where it's not clear one is necessarily better than the other.

 

Currently, the game's meta seems to fulfill those goals & philosophy.

Edited by ElementUser
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I dont hate people picking jungle heroes. But sometimes, being force to pick the heroes who can stay in suicide is boring. I mean, i want to play shellshocks, King Klout, etc... Those hero cant solo suicide lane, you see.

I dont ask to change the current meta, just put my thought here

 

HoN SEA Player

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Just now, w3_StarBoy said:

I dont hate people picking jungle heroes. But sometimes, being force to pick the heroes who can stay in suicide is boring. I mean, i want to play shellshocks, King Klout, etc... Those hero cant solo suicide lane, you see.

I dont ask to change the current meta, just put my thought here

 

Sometimes people are forced to play roles they don´t like. 

Edited by ScrubFactory
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