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Tremble - Time for some changes?


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Hi,

I have been back for about a month now after around 2-3 years break. Mostly the game feels the same. 
 

But the new Tremble, I do not see how this version is able to offer any kind of reward for playing good? Alot of the mechanics feels clutch. At least compared to almost all the old versions of the hero. 
 

Take the ultimate for example. When you use this you actually end up risk losing last hits when it’s up, because if you target swap and want to hold off to time them correctly you can have the AI Boris do a hit at the wrong times. 
 

The new impale is in my opinion an almost too weak spell to pick up in early game. You are forced going dark swarm 4/4 before. Previously you would at least skill up both together. 
 

if this version of tremble falls behind on farm it’s close to impossible to catch up, due to the fact that you can’t use Boris to farm a lane (while you either farm jungle or sit scared in a mound). 
 

I have around 35% winrate atm with new Tremble, and the only time I’m able to really do well is if I snowball early game. 

Having to use 4200 gold (to get a controllable Boris) makes it very hard to have an impact in the crucial early game. 

Yes, his strength is mobility, but let’s be real that part was WAY better when Boris was controllable. He seems to me to be a weak supporter, that doesn’t offer anything in late game (you can’t port to any mound in enemy base). 
 

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Wondering if giving a Dark Swarm spell to Boris (with staff effect), same level as tremble's (like the Kinesis mechanic) would make it more worth the investment. Might not be balanced damage-wise, but since the ability to farm is what tremble lacks it could make up for it with number tweaks.  Because i do agree that having to put 4200 gold in a lackluster item is a deterrent for most players, and your teammates usually won't bother staffing you with other (and better) options available.

Edited by mrizzet
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Dunno, I'm doing good with Tremble in 1800 games. Sometimes you do struggle a bit around the beggining of mid game and mid game.

Do I feel like hero needs some reworking or buffing? Hmm, no but... controllable Boris should really be a thing again.

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If tremble rape has a 35% winrate with the new tremble it clearly shows somehow is wrong 😞


For ya'll who don't know this guy was hitting like 80% or higher winrates back in the day.
It speaks of a situation where a player that is really mechanically skilled with a hero can't make it contribute to his WR any higher.

The people who score better with Tremble are people who have perfected their generally knowledge of the game and smaller details. Like excellent timings for pushing, stacking, understanding cooldowns and so on for whatever MMR they are on. 

I'd like to see a HoN where individual skill with heroes is valued a bit more rather than this general knoweldge of the game, which becomes more and more important the more bland the heroes become.  

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3 minutes ago, Ondis said:

If tremble rape has a 35% winrate with the new tremble it clearly shows somehow is wrong 😞


For ya'll who don't know this guy was hitting like 80% or higher winrates back in the day.
It speaks of a situation where a player that is really mechanically skilled with a hero can't make it contribute to his WR any higher.

The people who score better with Tremble are people who have perfected their generally knowledge of the game and smaller details. Like excellent timings for pushing, stacking, understanding cooldowns and so on for whatever MMR they are on. 

I'd like to see a HoN where individual skill with heroes is valued a bit more rather than this general knoweldge of the game, which becomes more and more important the more bland the heroes become.  

that doesn't always matter. I won't name the guy but he is one of the 2 best Ophelia players of all times and his winrate on solo Q account is around 20%.

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1 minute ago, Diabetis said:

that doesn't always matter. I won't name the guy but he is one of the 2 best Ophelia players of all times and his winrate on solo Q account is around 20%.

I don't think Tremblerape was 5-manning too much (do correct me if Im wrong) and I don't get the relevance here. I assume this guy doesn't play Ophelia all the time on his solo-Q acc.

Still what's the point, that team mates matter? 

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point is that it doesn't matter much what he played in the past or if he mastered the hero. And gave you the example, one of the 2 best Ophelia players of all times has 20% winrate as Ophelia this season. Tremble should be treated carefully, it's more on the strong side than on the weak. But I'd love to see controllable Boris.

5 minutes ago, Ondis said:

I don't think Tremblerape was 5-manning too much (do correct me if Im wrong) and I don't get the relevance here. I assume this guy doesn't play Ophelia all the time on his solo-Q acc.

Still what's the point, that team mates matter? 

 

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From my recent experience with Tremble (I've played enough games to get a good feeling for him), I think he's either too squishy or too weak. In the laning phase it's difficult to secure a lead not because you lack harassment potential, but because you are very fragile.

By the time you reach a stage that you can actually pull off some moves, the enemy has gotten stronger and it becomes complicated. It takes some farm and protective and offensive items to begin seeing Tremble's true power (Shrunken Head/Shieldbreaker), but sadly choosing SH means your damage is not that great, while choosing Shieldbreaker leaves you very vulnerable. Also, Tremble as a whole is very easily countered by Void Talisman, an item that many heroes get when they face Tremble; leaving Tremble rather..useless most of the time when he tries to engage in ganks and team-plays.

 

I think what I personally would like to see on Tremble is a few changes to how his Q works and some additions to his E.

I think if his Q is instead of "Enemies outside of the Swarm's range deal 30/40/50/60% less damage to Tremble", would be "Tremble receives 15/20/25/30% less damage while Swarm is active" it would be a very good addition to a hero that feels very fragile (at least, early on) as of now.

And, a minor addition to his E which is now "15/25/35/45% Slow and -1/-2/-3/-4 Armor", to also include "Tremble deals an additional 6/12/18/24 physical damage per attack" would feel absolutely great.

 

The first change is to counteract Tremble's vulnerability in the early stages against heroes like Pyromancer that can burst him down in 1 combo while they are inside his Swarm range, or enemy melee Hard-Carries that do not receive any downsides from Tremble's Swarm. 

The second change is to alleviate some of the pressure of making a choice between a damage-oriented item or a defense-oriented item, so it won't feel that choosing one over the other counts as a big loss.

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2 hours ago, Diabetis said:

point is that it doesn't matter much what he played in the past or if he mastered the hero. And gave you the example, one of the 2 best Ophelia players of all times has 20% winrate as Ophelia this season. Tremble should be treated carefully, it's more on the strong side than on the weak. But I'd love to see controllable Boris.

 

We're not talking about that even though I don't quite understand why you think that the 2nd best Ophelia player is so bad now. And if you haven't explained that perhaps you should. Like I can't argue with you or say you're right because I'm shooting in the dark? Are you saying the players this season are so much better, what?
 

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6 hours ago, Ondis said:

If tremble rape has a 35% winrate with the new tremble it clearly shows somehow is wrong 😞


For ya'll who don't know this guy was hitting like 80% or higher winrates back in the day.

Tremble was also a lot stronger back in the day. OP even? 

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7 hours ago, Ondis said:

We're not talking about that even though I don't quite understand why you think that the 2nd best Ophelia player is so bad now. And if you haven't explained that perhaps you should. Like I can't argue with you or say you're right because I'm shooting in the dark? Are you saying the players this season are so much better, what?
 

There is no point in what I said, besides to reject your claim. That if he was a Tremble master back in the days, that now the hero is awful if he is at 35% winrate.  

There are plenty of reasons for that and are obvious. Also imo if you never played the newest tremble, you really shouldn't talk about it or want it to be buffed/nerfed. I played it alot and the hero is fine.

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"plenty of reasons" but muh still can't list them after 3 posts. 
Cute.

Again I explained to you that someone who is super focused on one hero may not be superb at the game in other ways but could excell at that heroes unique strengths. 
Now the hero is more buffed in general but doesn't have the free roaming Boris which was the unique playstyle of the hero. Boris could even move through and spawn the terror mounds independently and act as a scout/bait. Impalers and Dark Swarm have been heavily geared towards normal 5v5 battles with armour benefitting the team rather than that fun ambush type of playstyle you could do with the old impalers too. 

So of course someone who is overall good at the game can be good with Tremble now.  He's just an average melee hero now with a bunch of auto attacks and one ensare mechanic. 

Edited by Ondis
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9 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

Tremble was also a lot stronger back in the day. OP even? 

His winrate was basically the same.  He was like so many heroes really deadly in some hands and below average in the hands of most people. Now he's just average overall.  

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So why would you change the hero that's avarage. You want to make it broken like it was in the past? Also a question to you. How many times did you play Tremble in 2020. Aproxximately? And how many of those times it was in game higher than diamond? 

But yeah, you basicially also wrote 3 useless posts talking about one thing and contraditcing yourself in the next sentence? You are saying the hero is avarage (which is fine) and then you say it's too weak... whatever I don't even know... think you have some issues to sort with yourself judging by the stuff you post on forum.

1 hour ago, Ondis said:

"plenty of reasons" but muh still can't list them after 3 posts. 
Cute.

Again I explained to you that someone who is super focused on one hero may not be superb at the game in other ways but could excell at that heroes unique strengths. 
Now the hero is more buffed in general but doesn't have the free roaming Boris which was the unique playstyle of the hero. Boris could even move through and spawn the terror mounds independently and act as a scout/bait. Impalers and Dark Swarm have been heavily geared towards normal 5v5 battles with armour benefitting the team rather than that fun ambush type of playstyle you could do with the old impalers too. 

So of course someone who is overall good at the game can be good with Tremble now.  He's just an average melee hero now with a bunch of auto attacks and one ensare mechanic. 

 

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2 hours ago, Diabetis said:

So why would you change the hero that's avarage. You want to make it broken like it was in the past? Also a question to you. How many times did you play Tremble in 2020. Aproxximately? And how many of those times it was in game higher than diamond? 

But yeah, you basicially also wrote 3 useless posts talking about one thing and contraditcing yourself in the next sentence? You are saying the hero is avarage (which is fine) and then you say it's too weak... whatever I don't even know... think you have some issues to sort with yourself judging by the stuff you post on forum.

 

I haven't contradicted myself at all. This is what you don't get cause you're thinking like a pleb.
As I and several others have pointed out, it's not about balancing as such. The hero never had an extreme winrate overall.

The hero used to have a huge skill ceiling which meant that you could get extremely good with him mechanically and you'd crush in may cases but until you got that game down you'd probably play worse with him than you would with the current tremble. 

There were tons of heroes like this and ultimately I would have liked to see more of them.  Instead he's been dragged down quite a bit to a bland average. It was magic watching tremblerape do his thing, now even if someone was really good at the hero it wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable nor would it be possible to be nearly as amazing as it was with the old tremble. 

Not that it wasn't possible to shut down a good tremble back then. You had to deny him space. But people didn't really know hot to react to it because it would turn the meta upside down.  You'd have to either constantly hunt him down or be a very mobile gank team and kill everyone else while having a jungler was super risky due to the mobility of tremble. 

 

Edited by Ondis
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I played Tremble quite a bit back when Boris was controllable, but haven't played more than half a dozen games with the new Tremble so won't comment on balance. But even just from a game design perspective removing controllable Boris really hurts the fun of the hero - and by extension the variability in the game since no other hero has quite that niche with Boris. Making the hero "bland", as Ondis puts it.

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A hero w/o any movement spell is a free kill to tremble b4 he got something to scape like void or tablet, or cyclone...


The only change tremble needs was already said.

Targeting his mounds is a torture sometimes.

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Tremble change was done at the same time as Tundra's iirc, where the pets became no longer controllable as to make them "easier" to use and not be at the bottom of picked percentage. Up to this day, I'm quite surprised that Tremble design kept that change while Tundra's one was reverted.

Still, as Diabetis said, I also consider that current version is fine, but also believe that it would be a lot more interesting to get controllable Boris back, since it is what allowed for a higher skill ceiling on the hero. Issue is that I don't think that the current design will be balanced with a controllable Boris at level 6. Mounds would have to be reworked again (as not being able to cast them globally) or his map control would become even higher than the old version.

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9 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

Ok, what do you want to change ?? Old Boris controlable back? Not gonna happen
Spent 4k2 gold for Boris to be controlable and blame the hero is weak ?

Why couldn't old controllable Boris return? Increasing the hero's skill ceiling to enable higher porential while adjusting numbers to increase punishment for not utilizing the hero effectively isn't mutually exclusive.

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Why the auto attack carry need to have high skill cap to be playable again ??? The more easy and simple that hero have, more player can use it. Old tremble have very few player who can play it and the rest are failling. 

The most famous carry is always easy to play, people dont like the heroes that too hard to play but small reward. Espeacially if it's carry hero

The hero dont design or balance for just "one" or "two" people who play it. 

HoN SEA Player

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Because you have like  100 heroes to choose from and there are tons of simple auto attack heroes and no real melee hero with a companion, except warchief who is semi-melee.   Not to mention the Boris mechanic is unique in the way he can help with mobility and not just attack when controllable. 

Gear heroes to different players rather than gearing all heroes to all players , that will satisfy no one. 

Edited by Ondis
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